Why is public transport in Dublin so bad?

1huge1

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yes agree with that. And there's no point say "if you build it they will come" for Dublin and not Donegal. Peculiarly Irish thing that, from both sides. Londoners probably welcome bridges in Scotland, and islanders accept London should get new rail projects.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree, I know that seems to be a recurring theme at the moment.

But I think it should be decided on every case, I am from Limerick for example, and I can assure you that many people adopted the attitude "if you build it, they will come", for the Western Railway Corridor when in fact quite the opposite has happened.

I put this bridge in Donegal on a similar level. But I think we might be getting slightly sidetracked here.

Eugene Norman

Personally as a dub I blame dubs. For instance whining about the transport minister is an admission that Ireland is over centralised. I don't see much offline support for a Dublin mayor with tax powers, in fact looking at the reaction to "double taxation" in this country, particularly in Dublin it won't happen, because to raise revenue local authorities with tax raising power generally get sales and property tax, and an added income tax.

So tax is higher in the US cities with good infrastructure than country areas. Won't happen here for obvious reasons.

Eugene Norman

cgcsb wrote: »

Not just labourers and navvies, people with an education but without family in high up places left in their droves and have done for generations, also people who aspire to better things are generally those who leave as opposed to those who are happy with dole, high tax and poor public services.

Hmm. I doubt if that's true going back to the 50's.

benjamin d

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Yes agree with that. And there's no point say "if you build it they will come" for Dublin and not Donegal. Peculiarly Irish thing that, from both sides. Londoners probably welcome bridges in Scotland, and islanders accept London should get new rail projects.

With this particular bridge it's not a case of "if you build it they will come" because there is nothing of note on either side of the bridge to warrant a €20m investment ahead of anywhere else, Wild Atlantic Way or not. In fact the road in Letterkenny that I mentioned needs the money is a proposed bypass from the only major corridor into the town, serving all major routes from outside Donegal, to the Ramelton road which serves Carrigart and Fanad, where the bridge is!

toptom

Dont ye have bus lanes trams dart and all the railways that lead into Dublin. We dont even have a bus eireann service in Thurles anymore. The new luas being built too.

Banjoxed

toptom wrote: »

Dont ye have bus lanes trams dart and all the railways that lead into Dublin. We dont even have a bus eireann service in Thurles anymore. The new luas being built too.

You've a railway toptom. Don't take it for granted; we lost ours mostly in 1959 and totally in 1965. Nearest is now Derry but we're a long way from that being a viable connection to Dublin.

end of the road

toptom wrote: »

Dont ye have bus lanes trams dart and all the railways that lead into Dublin. We dont even have a bus eireann service in Thurles anymore. The new luas being built too.

you have a train to dublin. a decent service it is as well. we can compare what one place and another place has and hasn't all we like but it doesn't get away from the fact that dublin needs large scale public transport investment to remove as much traffic from the roads as possible. it doesn't mean the rest of the country is left to rot, but it means the big projects get done first that benefit us all

Dyr

toptom wrote: »

Dont ye have bus lanes trams dart and all the railways that lead into Dublin. We dont even have a bus eireann service in Thurles anymore. The new luas being built too.

We're trying to keep yiz out. Hasn't worked so far

toptom

Bambi wrote: »

We're trying to keep yiz out. Hasn't worked so far

Ye wont be keeping me out on the 8th
Ilac Centre St stevens Green, here we come. G'on tipp

Stephen15

Rome has a equally bad if not worse bus system than Dublin. No bus lanes some of the road infrastructure looks like it dates to the Romans. It's bad enough not having bus lanes when the traffic is insane. Mind the city does have two metro lines with third on the way and an excellent tram system the same cannot be said for Dublin.

cgcsb

toptom wrote: »

Dont ye have bus lanes trams dart and all the railways that lead into Dublin. We dont even have a bus eireann service in Thurles anymore. The new luas being built too.

Thurles is a tiny town with a very frequent rail service.

Cookie_Monster

toptom wrote: »

Dont ye have bus lanes trams dart and all the railways that lead into Dublin. We dont even have a bus eireann service in Thurles anymore. The new luas being built too.

Population
Thurles: 8,000
Dublin: 527,000
GDA: 1,110,000

Why exactly would Thurles need anywhere near the level of infrastructure and services of Dublin?

Cookie_Monster

lawred2 wrote: »

I never saw one there

doesn't mean they don't exist.
Tram in Amsterdam also have conductors.
I'm sure with a bit of research you could find plenty more examples.

Nichard Dixon

Stephen15 wrote: »

Rome has a equally bad if not worse bus system than Dublin. No bus lanes some of the road infrastructure looks like it dates to the Romans. It's bad enough not having bus lanes when the traffic is insane. Mind the city does have two metro lines with third on the way and an excellent tram system the same cannot be said for Dublin.

It has proven difficult to build metro lines in Rome as archaeological material is unearthed and as critical items of heritage cannot be endangered.
What is the excuse in Dublin?

Terrontress

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

It has proven difficult to build metro lines in Rome as archaeological material is unearthed and as critical items of heritage cannot be endangered.
What is the excuse in Dublin?

That happens in most major construction projects in Ireland. There is an archaeologist on site who can stop works if he finds something of interest.

LionelNashe

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Dublin is not at all Low Density, this constantly repeated mantra is another symptom of the Low Intelligence/Unworldlyness of the simple-minded, child-like, poorly educated Irish population led by a simpleton intelligentsia of rustic halfwits quoting platitudes as a form of social medication.

The reality is that the average Irish person would look like an insular moron in the poorest and most backward parts of the Third World. Electricty and telecommunications has only made Irish People bigger Village Idiots.

Including you?

Nichard Dixon

Terrontress wrote: »

That happens in most major construction projects in Ireland. There is an archaeologist on site who can stop works if he finds something of interest.

Of course I know that. However ancient Rome had a population comparable with Dublin, the scale of archaeology is quite different.

mfceiling

Does any elected representative in Ireland not look at comparable sized countries to Ireland and see what they are doing right?

Just an example but if say New Zealand had a brilliant health service would it not make sense to spend a month there and find out why and see what we could copy to improve ours?

If (again only an example) Sweden had a great education system could they not go there and find out what they are doing that is so right?

Can't be difficult to look at which cities comparable to size in Dublin are leading the way with public transport and to see what can be replicated here. No?

spuddy

Why is PT so bad? I think the reason is simple, experience.
Understanding what it's like to be able to get from one part of a city to another quickly, easily & reliably is revolutionary when all you've ever had exposure to is Dublin Bus with schedules listed based on depot departures, long dwell times & meandering routes.

It's a chicken & egg situation. People have never experienced good PT, so don't want politicians to invest in it. And because politicians don't then invest in it, people will never experience good PT.

Bray Head

mfceiling wrote: »

Does any elected representative in Ireland not look at comparable sized countries to Ireland and see what they are doing right?

Just an example but if say New Zealand had a brilliant health service would it not make sense to spend a month there and find out why and see what we could copy to improve ours?

If (again only an example) Sweden had a great education system could they not go there and find out what they are doing that is so right?

Can't be difficult to look at which cities comparable to size in Dublin are leading the way with public transport and to see what can be replicated here. No?

Politicians who spend any length of time on fact-finding missions abroad generally have the minutiae of their expenditure dissected by newspapers as it is a cheap way to generate headlines.

It must discourage them from travelling to some extent.

cgcsb

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

It has proven difficult to build metro lines in Rome as archaeological material is unearthed and as critical items of heritage cannot be endangered.
What is the excuse in Dublin?

The excuse is generally that Thurles needs one more.

cgcsb

Terrontress wrote: »

That happens in most major construction projects in Ireland. There is an archaeologist on site who can stop works if he finds something of interest.

in fairness it's must less of a concern. Rome is much older than Dublin and it was a huge city 2,000 years ago, Dublin barely extended to the Northside 600 years ago.

cgcsb

mfceiling wrote: »

Does any elected representative in Ireland not look at comparable sized countries to Ireland and see what they are doing right?

Just an example but if say New Zealand had a brilliant health service would it not make sense to spend a month there and find out why and see what we could copy to improve ours?

If (again only an example) Sweden had a great education system could they not go there and find out what they are doing that is so right?

Can't be difficult to look at which cities comparable to size in Dublin are leading the way with public transport and to see what can be replicated here. No?

Circa 2001 a crack team of t̶r̶a̶n̶s̶p̶o̶r̶t̶ ̶e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶t̶s̶ people related to FF TDs was sent on an all expenses paid trip to Singapore to see how their integrated ticketing worked. They were to report back and design a similar system for Dublin.

10 years later we got a leap card that was the same thing as stapling together your luas/DART and DB smart cards, no integration of fare structures was considered and commuters continue to be charges twice for changing bus or changing between modes.

Banjoxed

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

It has proven difficult to build metro lines in Rome as archaeological material is unearthed and as critical items of heritage cannot be endangered.
What is the excuse in Dublin?

A few old fossils in Nesbitts.

Irish Steve

One of the fundamental issues that bedevils the system in Dublin is a complete lack of joined up thinking, it's hard to credit that Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann are all the same company when the total structure is looked at.

I don't use it, but one of the classic examples has to be the Bus Eireann 109 service that goes out to Kells and Virginia area. It runs from Busaras out through Phibsboro, then Blanchardstown, Clonee, Pace and then onwards to Dunshaughlin and beyond. Very much at the same times, there is also a 105 service that goes over exactly the same route until they diverge after the M3 Parkway, and the 105 goes on to Ratoath.

I've not done a survey on the 109, but I will be willing to hazard a guess that the vast majority of passengers on that service are joining at Busaras in order to be sure of getting on, as at peak periods it's pretty full, and at peak times, it takes a long time to get clear of Dublin, and given the route length, that's not clever.

What would seem imminently more sensible would be for the 109 to run nonstop via Dublin Port Tunnel to M3 Parkway, with connections at Parkway to pick up the passengers from the former section from Busaras to Parkway, who can be facilitated very easily on the 105, or (if it was done properly, which in many respects is the subject of this thread) a range of Dublin Bus services that could serve M3 Parkway to connect to other parts of the city, like Sandyford, or Tallaght, or Citywest, and other areas that at the moment are a problem to get to without going into the centre of Dublin.

In the same way, there are other long distance Bus Eireann routes that would benefit from a similar system using other places as a park and ride with interchange facility. The Airport is another place that could benefit from a better local service system, Swords and beyond or the centre of Dublin get well served, but pretty much most other areas of the city are not well served, which is a throw back to the historic hub and spoke issues that are at the core of Dublin transportation, which was fine 30 or more years ago, but with the much wider distribution of "work" areas into the huge number of "outer" industrial estates, there is a desperate need for more orbital services to cover them more widely.

I'm not even going to go into the Metro, Dublin underground and similar pipe dream plans that have come and gone, there's a very evident lack of trust of rail in Dublin, for whatever reasons.

The whole orbital concept of Dublin is a mess, the biggest problem being that the only viable Liffey crossing outside of the city is the M50, and we all know the issues that are associated with that. There's no public transport worth talking about using any of the M50, which in itself is an indication of how slow the system is to change, the motorway was designed in the 80's, took for ever to build, and even now, the transport planners seem to be incapable of designing routes that make any sort of use of it.

As an example, a few weeks back, my wife decided to use public transport to get down to Limerick. We're in Ashbourne, so the options were the 103 to Busaras, and then get the long distance bus, or the 109A to the airport, and then get the same long distance service there, or for me to drop her over to Red Cow to connect with the same long distance service there.

In the end, I dropped her to the airport, even though the journey time from the Airport to Red Cow was over an hour, using the 109A wasn't economically viable, as there's no through ticketing option, and a single from Ashbourne to the Airport wasn't particularly cheap when compared to the cost of Dublin to Limerick, the 103 route into town didn't work well with the timings, and two bridge tolls on the M50 made that unattractive in the overall cost of things.

That said, it makes no sense to me that the long distance bus from Town goes from the airport into Busaras, and then spends a long time getting out to the Red Cow interchange, apart from the issues of congestion at peak periods, it would seem more attractive to run from Busaras to the Airport via DPT, and then use the M50 to get round to the M7, and it should be quicker, which seems to me to be more sensible given the overall route time.

The same would apply to most other long distance bus services, the number of people joining or leaving long distance buses outside of the centre of Dublin would make using an interchange option at places like M3 Parkway, or Red Cow, or Cherrywood, or the Airport, (and there are probably other places that would be appropriate) a lot more appropriate, and reduce the overall journey time on those routes.

I'm not going to hold my breath though, the chances of some sensible joined up thinking on this sort of thing are about as likely as pink snow in August.

1huge1

Irish Steve wrote: »

As an example, a few weeks back, my wife decided to use public transport to get down to Limerick. We're in Ashbourne, so the options were the 103 to Busaras, and then get the long distance bus, or the 109A to the airport, and then get the same long distance service there, or for me to drop her over to Red Cow to connect with the same long distance service there.

In the end, I dropped her to the airport, even though the journey time from the Airport to Red Cow was over an hour, using the 109A wasn't economically viable, as there's no through ticketing option, and a single from Ashbourne to the Airport wasn't particularly cheap when compared to the cost of Dublin to Limerick, the 103 route into town didn't work well with the timings, and two bridge tolls on the M50 made that unattractive in the overall cost of things.

That said, it makes no sense to me that the long distance bus from Town goes from the airport into Busaras, and then spends a long time getting out to the Red Cow interchange, apart from the issues of congestion at peak periods, it would seem more attractive to run from Busaras to the Airport via DPT, and then use the M50 to get round to the M7, and it should be quicker, which seems to me to be more sensible given the overall route time.

The same would apply to most other long distance bus services, the number of people joining or leaving long distance buses outside of the centre of Dublin would make using an interchange option at places like M3 Parkway, or Red Cow, or Cherrywood, or the Airport, (and there are probably other places that would be appropriate) a lot more appropriate, and reduce the overall journey time on those routes.

I'm not going to hold my breath though, the chances of some sensible joined up thinking on this sort of thing are about as likely as pink snow in August.

I completely agree with everything you've said, a bit of joined up thinking would go an awful long way, instead of providing complete routes, they should coordinate to use more feeder services.

On another note, I'm not sure if you are aware, but if you or your wife are ever heading to Limerick again, I recommend this service highly

http://www.dublincoach.ie/

Amazing how much a private company can sort out transfers so much more efficiently than our inept public transport operators.

Dyr

Personally I'd be really wary of feeder services, its another variable/point of failure that our public transport system can make a total balls of

Stephen15

The main complaint I would about the public transport in Dublin is price it's a ripoff compared to other European cities. Even on the leap card it's still not exactly cheap. Cash fares on Dublin bus cause long dwell times. I don't see why they can't be scrapped now with leap cards. One of the things that favours Romes buses is the use of three doors. I know it would encourage fare evasion but why not have more ticket inspectors. The NTA should buy 3 door single deckers instead of dd most routes do not require extra room of double deckers the single deckers used on the continent can carry nearly just as many people standing as a dd can sitting and for routes with high volumes they can get bendybuses which didn't work the first time as they were put on unsuitable routes the 46a and 145 are straight routes for most of the journey in qbcs and could easily negotiate them.

anothernight

spuddy wrote: »

Why is PT so bad? I think the reason is simple, experience.
Understanding what it's like to be able to get from one part of a city to another quickly, easily & reliably is revolutionary when all you've ever had exposure to is Dublin Bus with schedules listed based on depot departures, long dwell times & meandering routes.

It's a chicken & egg situation. People have never experienced good PT, so don't want politicians to invest in it. And because politicians don't then invest in it, people will never experience good PT.

I think this is a big one. I have friends from outside Dublin who moved to Dublin and thought public transport was great there... until they moved to other European capitals. Some people honestly don't see anything particularly wrong with Dublin Bus, for example, because they think the delays, ghost buses, costly fares, cancelled services, etc etc, are inevitable in such a system.
Unfortunately for me, I spent most of my life in a city with excellent public transport. Moving to Dublin and having to use the bus service there was a real shock to the system!

I suspect there would be more political will to fix the issue if more people used public transport and recognised that the problems with it are not inevitable, and not acceptable.


Another thing I found strange when I moved to Dublin was that people who didn't use public transport were completely oblivious to how it worked, and therefore also to the problems with it. If that's the case with the general population, how likely is it that politicians even know what problems must be fixed?

I had a (very wealthy) teacher in my country who used to say that the development of a country can be measured by how many rich people use public transport. She used to take the same bus or metro route to school as me. Every time I see a thread like this, I remember what she said.

cgcsb

Irish people tend to migrate to the anglosphere, Australia, New Zealand, the USA, Canada etc. the ideas they bring pack about public transport are null. If Irish people were more likely to migrate to the Netherlands or Germany and return we'd probably have better pt.