Why is public transport in Dublin so bad?

Chivito550

Have traveled the world, have lived in Melbourne, and have developed an interest in public transport and how various cities around the world do it. Having seen the public transportation systems throughout Continental Europe, the Far East, and in Melbourne, I've come to the conclusion that Dublin must be among the very worst of any reasonably sized major Western city in the world in terms of public transport (excluding most US cities of course, and possibly Auckland).

Just why is it so bad here? Is it a case that we are so car dependent because the public transport is terrible, or is the public transport so poor because Irish people love their cars so much, and there isn't the same appetite for an efficient, extensive and well connected public transport network?

Why on earth were the 2 LUAS lines not connected to begin with?
Why on earth was Heuston station never connected to Pearse or Connolly?
Why are Commuter Rail services so infrequent?
Why does nothing seem to ever connect in this city? (Long walk from Green Line to DART for example)

Why is it that countries like Switzerland can get their sh1t in order and have such a highly efficient integrated service, which encourages people to leave their cars at home, and all we can seem to do is come up with plans, that the various governments had no genuine interest in following through with?

Why do we use our size as a reason for why we don't need a metro? Oslo is the same population as us and has 6 metro lines, 6 tram lines, and around 5-6 commuter rail lines. Copenhagen, Helsinki, Nuremberg are all the same size as us, and have vastly superior networks.

And was digging up our tram lines in the 40s and 50s, in hindsight, the single greatest mistake in the history of public transport in Ireland? Had we as people lobbied to keep them, we could be like Melbourne now (who have the biggest tram network in the world, and were in danger of losing it back in the 60s or 70s, but the locals pressurised the governments to keep it, as far as I understand, as it was part of the city's identity.)

So many questions, mostly borne from frustration at how we sell ourselves so short as a city. How can we call ourselves a modern city when we are 50 years behind our similarly sized European counterparts?

cgcsb

A number of reasons:

Politics makes it difficult to carry out projects taking longer than 4 years.

Most Cities, of our size, in the developed world have some sort of independent governance and are capable of funding their own infrastructure to some extent.

If Dublin had a metro, Rossport also must have one.

Lack of intelligence in general in the Irish population as a result of emigration to the more prosperous anglosphere over generations.

If the only people of any given generation left here are the folk from the hills have eyes, that means that politicians only have to get pot holes fixed and subsidize some unsustainable service a while longer to get re-elected.

Linked to the lack of intelligence is the lack of worldliness. We are only capable of comparing ourselves to the UK, and there is an awareness that Dublin is much smaller than London, ergo Dublin only needs to ape what services are available in provincial parts of the UK.

The Irish media are permitted to print misinformation about projects e.g. that DART underground is designed to connect Connolly and Heuston and that the existing PPT can do same

The Times was recently pressuring the government to give a commitment to NOT build metro north because the IT would consider it a waste.

Switzerland and Norway are for smart folk.

magicbastarder

cgcsb wrote: »

The Times was recently pressuring the government to give a commitment to NOT build metro north because the IT would consider it a waste.

not quite sure what you mean here; 'pressuring the government' usually means lobbying or similar. do you mean they simply published articles critical of the plan?

ClovenHoof

cgcsb wrote: »

A number of reasons:


If Dublin had a metro, Rossport also must have one.

Lack of intelligence in general in the Irish population as a result of emigration to the more prosperous anglosphere over generations means that.


Linked to the lack of intelligence is the lack of worldliness. We are only capable of comparing ourselves to the UK, and there is an awareness that Dublin is much smaller than London, ergo Dublin only needs to ape what services are available in provincial parts of the UK.

I think this is the most insightful and honest thing I have read on boards ever. Thank you.

These are the reasons why, nothing else.

cgcsb

magicbastarder wrote: »

not quite sure what you mean here; 'pressuring the government' usually means lobbying or similar. do you mean they simply published articles critical of the plan?

An endless stream of articles including one which suggested that govt needed to promise not to build it.

Macy0161

The political consequences of focusing on Dublin is the main one - you can see it in the reaction to proposals here, in the media, texters and callers to radio stations etc. I think this is a bigger thing than lack of intelligence/ worldliness to be honest. Well it is by the people who complain and compare, rather than those charged with developing it.

I also think there's a need for a wider focus - the reality is transport problems are a "Greater Dublin" issue, not just a Dublin issue. Park and Rides in Sandyford are no good for people commuting on the N11 beyond the Glen of the Downs, Park and Rides at the Red Cow are no good for people caught at the N7/N9 merge. More options close in aren't going to solve anything without addressing, or giving options, much further out than we currently see proposed.

Mrs OBumble

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I think this is the most insightful and honest thing I have read on boards ever. Thank you.

+1

I have a reputation for saying what I think, and it's got me into trouble with management here on boards.ie more than once. But I totally agree, and admire cgcsb's guts for telling the truth.

zulutango

One of the principle reasons is that Dublin has a low density, sprawling population. Planning in the capital has been abysmal since the British left. It's very difficult and costly to provide adequate public transport in such cities.

strandroad

Ireland is not good with public services in general. The attitude is "with a bit of cash everyone will sort themselves out and the poor get some crappy baseline service for free". This is just a reflection of it.

You can see it here as posters dissect every little thing as to how un/profitable it is, without any understanding of how valuable a full transport system is regardless of how a particular tiny node performs.

plodder

cgcsb wrote: »

The Irish media are permitted to print misinformation about projects e.g. that DART underground is designed to connect Connolly and Heuston and that the existing PPT can do same

Irish Rail can take some of the blame for that. They were calling the project 'The Interconnector' for years. Even DART underground doesn't convey its importance. I don't think they did enough to sell the vision to the public or to politicians either (who generally speaking follow what the public is thinking)

The Times was recently pressuring the government to give a commitment to NOT build metro north because the IT would consider it a waste.

That was disappointing all right, though not that it had much influence in the end.

hmmm

Our thinking is very short term, probably related to the parochial nature of politics. It's not in the interest of a politician to deliver a project that will have a long term impact (e.g. metro), when they could deliver short term goodies by reducing capital spend.

It's why we have urban sprawl, a lack of density in the city, creaking infrastructure, no metro, a clogged M50 etc. Hopefully a few of the potentially useful quangos who can think long term e.g. the NTA, but if you're relying on anything that is reliant on political decisions we have a problem.

cgcsb

zulutango wrote: »

One of the principle reasons is that Dublin has a low density, sprawling population. Planning in the capital has been abysmal since the British left. It's very difficult and costly to provide adequate public transport in such cities.

That's only partially true, planning is bad but population density inside the M50, in the bigger suburbs and along the main arterial routes is quite high, bad planning alone isn't an excuse, Dublin is only slightly less densely populated than Amsterdam.

NiallBoo

I think we need a "if we build it they will come" attitude to public transport.

We seem to be locked into a vicious cycle of "we have to build sprawling car-friendly housing because the public transport isn't there but we also can't build public transport because the city is too sprawling".

If we were to front-load the development of infrastructure then the type of development will change too. This has worked to some extent in places like Sandyford, but would work much better if done on a larger scale.

Other problems like general lack of faith in any kind of public authority and poor vision/fear of doing things in any way differently are also cancerous.

It's worth noting that these problems cause abysmal planning/development in all parts of ireland.

cgcsb

mhge wrote: »

You can see it here as posters dissect every little thing as to how un/profitable it is, without any understanding of how valuable a full transport system is regardless of how a particular tiny node performs.

That and people here have gotten it into their heads that new railways must earn enough in ticket sales in a short space of time to cover their capital costs :eek:
Wonder where that idea comes from.

plodder

zulutango wrote: »

One of the principle reasons is that Dublin has a low density, sprawling population. Planning in the capital has been abysmal since the British left. It's very difficult and costly to provide adequate public transport in such cities.

I'm not sure how true that is. It was discussed here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057398052

Most of the definitions of "low density/sprawling" seem to include vast areas that can still be built on at higher density. It shouldn't be used as an excuse to not invest in decent public transport.

cgcsb

plodder wrote: »

That was disappointing all right, though not that it had much influence in the end.

Perhaps not, but it's more of a mood setter. Our political class consists mostly of semi-literate primary school teachers, they aren't capable of independent thought or reasoning so the media line suits them fine.

zulutango

plodder wrote: »

I'm not sure how true that is. It was discussed here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057398052

Most of the definitions of "low density/sprawling" seem to include vast areas that can still be built on at higher density. It shouldn't be used as an excuse to not invest in decent public transport.

It should be used as a reason to sort our planning out!! We should be looking to develop a higher density, compact city. We don't have that at the moment, and that's one of the main reasons why the public transport system is so bad.

NiallBoo

cgcsb wrote: »

Perhaps not, but it's more of a mood setter. Our political class consists mostly of semi-literate primary school teachers, they aren't capable of independent thought or reasoning so the media line suits them fine.

Well who else would be silly enough to go into politics?
The thing is though that even eejits come up with good ideas sometimes and we're very bad at supporting them when they do.

strandroad

zulutango wrote: »

One of the principle reasons is that Dublin has a low density, sprawling population. Planning in the capital has been abysmal since the British left. It's very difficult and costly to provide adequate public transport in such cities.

It's a convenient myth, go Wikipedia hunting for a few minutes and you'll find that Dublin's density is on par with numerous continental cities with excellent transport systems, and some of them are smaller.

zulutango

mhge wrote: »

It's a convenient myth, go Wikipedia hunting for a few minutes and you'll find that Dublin's density is on par with numerous continental cities with excellent transport systems, and some of them are smaller.

The statistics don't tell the full story of Dublin's chaotic planning to be fair. The place is a mess.

strandroad

zulutango wrote: »

The statistics don't tell the full story of Dublin's chaotic planning to be fair. The place is a mess.

It really is not particularly different to what it's out there, it's just a special snowflake excuse. Plenty of chaotic cities that still manage to run dense tram network and efficient buses even if they can't afford underground.

hmmm

hmmm wrote: »

Our thinking is very short term, probably related to the parochial nature of politics.

To illustrate my own point, look at this from today. How do you get any infrastructure built in this country?
"Fine Gael Councillor Hughie McElvaney from Co Monaghan has resigned over the issue of the pylon construction for North-South Pylon Interconnector."
"Fine Gael TD Sean Conlan has resigned from the party.

He said his resignation was because “individuals at the top” of Fine Gael were not listening to the concerns of people “on the ground” about the contentious North South Interconnector. "

zulutango

mhge wrote: »

It really is not particularly different to what it's out there, it's just a special snowflake excuse. Plenty of chaotic cities that still manage to run dense tram network and efficient buses even if they can't afford underground.

Dublin is chaotic, dreadfully badly planned and sprawling way more than it needs to be. That's one of three main reasons why the public transport is so bad.

For what it's worth, the other two reasons I'd identify are the inefficiency and intransigence of the state transport companies and the lack of investment in public transport. I think a lot of people will point to the lack of investment, but it's the least of the three reasons. Planning and management are the main culprits.

strandroad

zulutango wrote: »

Dublin is chaotic, dreadfully badly planned and sprawling way more than it needs to be. That's one of three main reasons why the public transport is so bad.

You might want to visit Krakow, outside of its compact historical city centre it's best described as "house salad" and you might be 30 minutes on a tram running through some dreadful half empty fields before you reach a built up area again. Density is half that of Dublin, no underground, but trams and buses are first class running every few minutes radial and orbital.

In Dublin we are only looking up to Britain which is not at all a good example. We should be looking at the Nordics or Central/Eastern Europe where incidentally city sizes are quite on par with Dublin.

ClovenHoof

Dublin is not at all Low Density, this constantly repeated mantra is another symptom of the Low Intelligence/Unworldlyness of the simple-minded, child-like, poorly educated Irish population led by a simpleton intelligentsia of rustic halfwits quoting platitudes as a form of social medication.

The reality is that the average Irish person would look like an insular moron in the poorest and most backward parts of the Third World. Electricty and telecommunications has only made Irish People bigger Village Idiots.

ClovenHoof

hmmm wrote: »

To illustrate my own point, look at this from today. How do you get any infrastructure built in this country?
"Fine Gael Councillor Hughie McElvaney from Co Monaghan has resigned over the issue of the pylon construction for North-South Pylon Interconnector."
"Fine Gael TD Sean Conlan has resigned from the party.

He said his resignation was because “individuals at the top” of Fine Gael were not listening to the concerns of people “on the ground” about the contentious North South Interconnector. "

It really is something else to step back and read something like this. A half dozen wires on the top of a metal frame being treated like it is a nuclear waste being put in children's corn flakes.

cgcsb

ClovenHoof wrote: »

It really is something else to step back and read something like this. A half dozen wires on the top of a metal frame being treated like it is a nuclear waste being put in children's corn flakes.

Like a gas pipeline (of which there are many in other parts of the country) in Mayo, it's something new fangled and it does me no favours and I've to wear my tin foil hat to go near it.

Fear and suspicion of technology, that is widespread elsewhere, is a feature of the Irish Psyche that I have found to be unique in the developed world.

cgcsb

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The reality is that the average Irish person would look like an insular moron in the poorest and most backward parts of the Third World. Electricty and telecommunications has only made Irish People bigger Village Idiots.

I wouldn't be that harsh, there are plenty more insular gob****es in the developed world. Just look to the US deep south, the glens of Antrim or southern Italy.

NiallBoo

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Dublin is not at all Low Density, this constantly repeated mantra is another symptom...

this is broadly true but I think it's worth noting that the distribution in other cities seems quite different. Places like Amsterdam and Copenhagen seem to have more dense housing in urban areas but have a lot more land used for things like wider streets, public areas, canals, shops, public buildings etc.

This is part of what makes then nicer cities to be in and get around, whilst also providing the critical mass to support those services.

This isn't intended as an excuse of "why we can't have nice things" or couldn't/shouldn't build public transport, but it's part of why we don't have them already.

As I said above, we should just go ahead and build public transport and planning and everything else will improve around it as people want to live and be nearby.

ClovenHoof

Take Green Party TD 'Dublin' Ciaran Cuffe, actively campaigning against the Dublin Rail Plan, while ejaculating in his pants at the thought of 3 'sustainable' trains with 8 passengers running through Swinford. This is not a normal person of adequate cognition. Yet in Ireland, people vote for muppets like this.

We are a most simple minded folk. We call our politicians by their first names thinking they are our friends. Our newspapers dictate national policy. We are the only nation in Europe who DEMANDS that sodium fluoride is put in our drinking water in order to prove how 'scientific' we are. There was a recent article in a foreign soccer magazine delighted the Irish made the Euro finals as we would bring our 'child like simplicity' with us.

Like it or not, there are more Irish people like Fr Dougal than we wish to admit and the British were not insulting us with the Thick Paddy jokes. They were holding a mirror up to us.

ClovenHoof

cgcsb wrote: »

I wouldn't be that harsh, there are plenty more insular gob****es in the developed world. Just look to the US deep south, the glens of Antrim or southern Italy.

and these are the ones we aspire to being sadly.

at least the cooking in Southern Italy is superb at least.

lawlolawl

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Take Green Party TD 'Dublin' Ciaran Cuffe, actively campaigning against the Dublin Rail Plan, while ejaculating in his pants at the thought of 3 'sustainable' trains with 8 passengers running through Swinford. This is not a normal person of adequate cognition. Yet in Ireland, people vote for muppets like this.

We are a most simple minded folk. We call our politicians by their first names thinking they are our friends. Our newspapers dictate national policy. We are the only nation in Europe who DEMANDS that sodium fluoride is put in our drinking water in order to prove how 'scientific' we are. There was a recent article in a foreign soccer magazine delighted the Irish made the Euro finals as we would bring our 'child like simplicity' with us.

Like it or not, there are more Irish people like Fr Dougal than we wish to admit and the British were not insulting us with the Thick Paddy jokes. They were holding a mirror up to us.

Yeah, this country has a real problem with lack of common sense and sustainability.

Any time we get a few pound we flitter it away on nonsense vanity projects or use it to borrow off of to fuel another credit meltdown once we realise we have to pay back ten times more money than we started with.

Throw a sporting event or a few extra quid from the government at most people in this country and they are pacified. Nothing will ever really improve on a systemic level but "shure, i can afford a few more ciggies/cans/scratchcards now and i get to see a guy do a sport in a green jersey so i'm happy."

Banjoxed

cgcsb wrote: »

Perhaps not, but it's more of a mood setter. Our political class consists mostly of semi-literate primary school teachers, they aren't capable of independent thought or reasoning so the media line suits them fine.

That and vested interests who want sprawl to sell cars and aggregate in.

LeinsterDub

Because the general public don't care. Did you see an episode of Vincent b or prime time about the killing of du or mn? Nope. People don't give a ****

Banjoxed

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Because the general public don't care. Did you see an episode of Vincent b or prime time about the killing of du or mn? Nope. People don't give a ****

More accurately Vincent and Prime Time don't give one. Vincenzo in his monetarist phase was always very quick to quote Sean "an Bord Snip" Barrett about the DART project. If Barrett had his way at the time there wouldn't have been a DART to interconnect with anything, at all.

zulutango

mhge wrote: »

You might want to visit Krakow, outside of its compact historical city centre it's best described as "house salad" and you might be 30 minutes on a tram running through some dreadful half empty fields before you reach a built up area again. Density is half that of Dublin, no underground, but trams and buses are first class running every few minutes radial and orbital.

You might argue that Krakow is low density but you should note that it has high density population clusters that make public transport more viable there. Dublin is a sprawling, fairly poorly planned mess, and not at all like Krakow. Also, the economics of providing good public transport in the former Soviet Union is quite different to what it is in this country. Comparing the two cities is a nonsense.

The fact that Dublin is a mess is not a reason not to invest in public transport. In fact, it's a very good reason to do so, as this would go along way to fixing the planning disasters of the last number of decades. Over time, and with good support planning, the population would realign along public transport corridors.

But make no mistake about is, the population dispersal in Dublin currently is a huge barrier to providing good public transport to that population.

cgcsb

zulutango wrote: »

But make no mistake about is, the population dispersal in Dublin currently is a huge barrier to providing good public transport to that population.

The 1km Catchment area of metro North has a population of around 200,000 people, The State's main airport some hospitals and some universities, and an existing train station, there is no fear that Metro North would be under utilised. In 2002 the IT made out the luas would be empty most of the time. :rolleyes:

We are now realising that the system was completely under designed and we are seeing crush loading at peak times only 10 years after the system opening.

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

The 1km Catchment area of metro North has a population of around 200,000 people, The State's main airport some hospitals and some universities, and an existing train station, there is no fear that Metro North would be under utilised. In 2002 the IT made out the luas would be empty most of the time. :rolleyes:

We are now realising that the system was completely under designed and we are seeing crush loading at peak times only 10 years after the system opening.

I'm not arguing against the LUAS or Metro North.

I'm saying why it's very difficult to have an adequate public transport system in Dublin, i.e. one that serves all it's population and does so efficiently.

strandroad

Krakow was not in Soviet Union... and has low rise areas too. Plenty of relatively small cities in the north/east of Europe have great public transport and they do not always build high as they like their terraces and bungalows too.
Dublin is not special.

dissed doc

zulutango wrote: »

I'm not arguing against the LUAS or Metro North.

I'm saying why it's very difficult to have an adequate public transport system in Dublin, i.e. one that serves all it's population and does so efficiently.

it costs a lot of money and so far the private sector has been unwilling or unable to develop it. looking to the government is the natural alternative, but requires a lot of tax to make it happen. the people who would benefit the most, pay the least in tax so the money is just not there.

it is simply cheaper and more accesible and more importantly "good enough" to run a car for most people.

Dyr

One reason is people think a commuting solution is a transport solution.

The city being run by culchies doesn't help.

cgcsb

Bambi wrote: »

One reason is people think a commuting solution is a transport solution.

The city being run by culchies doesn't help.

Indeed, is there any chance Dublin might be able to spend Dublin's property tax ...in Dublin, ya know instead of filling potholes in the boreens of Enda's constituency?

cgcsb

dissed doc wrote: »

the people who would benefit the most, pay the least in tax so the money is just not there.

How do you figure that one?

hardanro

Low density isn't the main problem.
How can we complain about low density and still wait for 5-6 buses to stop, because they are too full (something that I did not see in any high density city where I have been)?
If density was a problem, I would expect to see empty buses, and lack of passengers (and therefore money) to prevent investiting in improving the services. But in fact, it's the other way around, they try to push more people towards car with their poor management and bad reliability.

Hotblack Desiato

zulutango wrote: »

I'm saying why it's very difficult to have an adequate public transport system in Dublin, i.e. one that serves all it's population and does so efficiently.

It's so difficult because they don't even try.

Canadel

Decided to take the train as a treat this morning from Drumcondra to Connolly - checked and double checked the times and was there around quarter to 8. Planned to confirm time and schedule with a staff member but of course nobody around from Irish Rail. Tagged on anyway and arrived the the platform to see that the 8.10 train was now the 8.19 train, which then became the 8.25 train and so on. No announcement from Irish Rail and no way of being forewarned of this change before tagging on or buying a ticket as there is no schedule info available apart from on the platform, and the online timetable was as per usual. Ended up tagging back off at Drumcondra and walking to work. What's the bet I'm charged to the last stop!

Carawaystick

I presume its crap because the people who make the decisions regarding PT don't use it.
Govt ministers have mercs, and cops to drive them up buslanes/ignoring restrictions that apply to others
The Chairman of CIÉ had a company merc too...

Mick O Leary flys Ryanair.

Macy0161

Carawaystick wrote: »

Mick O Leary flys Ryanair.

O'Leary has been one of the most vocal against Public Transport infrastructure developments to North Dublin/ the airport. He has a taxi plate, so he doesn't have to get stuck in traffic with the plebs.

Carawaystick

Macy0161 wrote: »

O'Leary has been one of the most vocal against Public Transport infrastructure developments to North Dublin/ the airport. He has a taxi plate, so he doesn't have to get stuck in traffic with the plebs.

But the public transport company he runs, runs well, partly because he uses it.

Mrs OBumble

Macy0161 wrote: »

O'Leary has been one of the most vocal against Public Transport infrastructure developments to North Dublin/ the airport.

Air travel is part of the public transport infrastructure, as far as I'm concerned.

Idbatterim

its crap because anything that isn't welfare increases, PS pay increases or tax cuts is seen as absolute frivolous waste! there is far too much consensus sought in this country, I mean you read the ignorant opinions of many who dont have a clue what they are talking about, then the media who you would think would be educated and educated on the subject;s they write about are either 1) talking complete sh*t or 2) tell the people what they want to hear (as its all about selling at the end of the day)

The M50 shambles would be alleviated a lot with a proper north south line, linking swords and bray. The decisions to stall the MN that has planning for €200,000,000 a year in "savings" is outrageous, thats what the cost of much of the gridlock in Dublin is, €200,000,000 a year (a huge amount of which would have simply went back to government coffers). Postponing DU also for mickey mouse money again, it is all irrelevance money at the end of the day. The "savings" from re-designing both of these projects, would have been covered by the money they magiced up for this give away budget!

If for political reasons they didnt want to go with original metro north, re-secure power and start it then. I couldnt give a toss what some ignorant people outside of Dublin (the golden goose) think, they dont have to live with the grid lock, criminal infrastructure for a european capital) and the impact it has on quality of life...