Why is public transport in Dublin so bad?

NiallBoo

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

the number one reason most people my age don't get the bus or train is because it is cheaper to drive.
nobody wants to admit that, because it gives the powers that be a green light to increase parking, clamping, tolls and motor tax rates.
what actually it should do is ask people why these services are designed to break even on costs?
is the point of public transport to take people out of cars and not to provide a revenue stream?

the cost of doing business could drop significantly if traffic wasn't such a problem in the city, but that's a long term benefit to giving the semi-states a bigger budget, and no department is allowed wait for long term benefits.

It's an interesting point that the economics of this never gets discussed fairly.

Public transport is seen as a huge financial drain but the subsidies paid to PT companies should be compared to how much of a loss there is in creating/maintaining the road network.

Bray Head

Here's a few brief answers to your questions:

Dublin Bus are incapable of implementing basic operational efficiencies such as fewer stops, time-based ticketing, a useable timetable and using middle doors. This could improve journey times by 10% to 30% at very little cost. Dublin Bus is the most used mode in Dublin. I really think that reform efforts should start with the bus network as this is where there is most bang for buck.

Quality of coverage of public transport project in Ireland is exceptionally poor in the mainstream media (unless there's a strike). No one has any idea that public capital spend in Ireland as a share of GDP is pretty much the lowest in the developed world, while at the same time natural population growth is close to highest.

There are no large Irish firms that make tunnelling equipment, do very large-scale civil engineering or manufacture plant. In countries where these firms are domestically owned there is a tendency for these kinds of projects to get prioritised more. Politicians can see the benefit in terms of jobs and profits flowing back to local firms.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

Here's a few brief answers to your questions:

Dublin Bus are incapable of implementing basic operational efficiencies such as fewer stops, time-based ticketing, a useable timetable and using middle doors. This could improve journey times by 10% to 30% at very little cost. Dublin Bus is the most used mode in Dublin. I really think that reform efforts should start with the bus network as this is where there is most bang for buck.

Quality of coverage of public transport project in Ireland is exceptionally poor in the mainstream media (unless there's a strike). No one has any idea that public capital spend in Ireland as a share of GDP is pretty much the lowest in the developed world, while at the same time natural population growth is close to highest.

There are no large Irish firms that make tunnelling equipment, do very large-scale civil engineering or manufacture plant. In countries where these firms are domestically owned there is a tendency for these kinds of projects to get prioritised more. Politicians can see the benefit in terms of jobs and profits flowing back to local firms.

The NTA are responsible for ticketing - not Dublin Bus. They do offer LEAP90 discount, but have shown little appetite for expanding to time based ticketing. That may change when farebox revenue goes to the NTA, but while it still goes to the operators I really don't see that happening as it would create a myriad of funding issues.

As for timetables, I think it fair to point out that timetables have een changed to standard interval departures on virtually all routes. Again, the NTA are now responsible for defining the periods of operation of bus services in Dublin.

The old chestnut of fewer stops comes up again. The people who post this most seem to focus only on commuter bus services, forgetting that it's a bus service for everyone.

I would argue that there is more scope for adding more limited stop commuter services, rather than implementing removal of bus stops. Sure there are some locations where stops could be merged, but frankly they are far less in number than some people seem to think.

Yakkyda

Whilst I largely agree with the op, it's hardly such a massive walk from the end of the green line(stephens green) to the dart(pearse street)

Although of course it beggars belief that the two lines weren't originally linked at a time when there was money in the coffers to pay for it. I suspect city centre bussiness were putting up a lot of resistance due to the perception of lost business and traffic disruption. In the end, it was a boon for most and I don't think it affected many of them during the construction back then.

ezra_pound

magicbastarder wrote: »

depends very much on your circumstances. i live on the northside of dublin and work on the southside. it's cheaper for me to get a yearly bus and luas ticket, even before you allow for the tax aspect of it.

But do you own a car?

stuartkee

Why get on to boards though ??

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

The NTA are responsible for ticketing - not Dublin Bus. They do offer LEAP90 discount, but have shown little appetite for expanding to time based ticketing. That may change when farebox revenue goes to the NTA, but while it still goes to the operators I really don't see that happening as it would create a myriad of funding issues.

As for timetables, I think it fair to point out that timetables have een changed to standard interval departures on virtually all routes. Again, the NTA are now responsible for defining the periods of operation of bus services in Dublin.

The old chestnut of fewer stops comes up again. The people who post this most seem to focus only on commuter bus services, forgetting that it's a bus service for everyone.

I would argue that there is more scope for adding more limited stop commuter services, rather than implementing removal of bus stops. Sure there are some locations where stops could be merged, but frankly they are far less in number than some people seem to think.

I mean the following in the politest possible sense, as you are an extremely constructive poster across a range of issues. But your post above is reflective of a bureaucratic mindset which throws up a stream of micro-obstacles that aggregate into a big mess.

I take your point that the NTA are now nominally in charge of the network. But it is a system built chaotically over several generations by Dublin Bus. And (from what I can tell) any reform is both slow and piecemeal once DB management and unions get involved.

Re the bus stops I would gladly sacrifice the one actually outside my house for a 200 metre walk to the next one, if it would speed up the service.

In short: I live and work in places where DB coverage and frequency is probably at its best. It is still far slower than bike, slower than car and I can keep up on foot on a wet December morning. Why am I funding a service through my taxes that even someone as well placed as me to use its services refuses to?

1huge1

Yakkyda wrote: »

Whilst I largely agree with the op, it's hardly such a massive walk from the end of the green line(stephens green) to the dart(pearse street)

That is a 10-15 minute walk (14mins according to google maps), add in to the fact that you may be waiting for the Luas/Train when you arrive at either destination.

In terms of a daily commute, that is very large.

A much more manageable option will become available when the Luas Cross City Line opens and the walk between Tara Street and and the Westmoreland Street Stop (<5min walk)

Chivito550

Yakkyda wrote: »

Whilst I largely agree with the op, it's hardly such a massive walk from the end of the green line(stephens green) to the dart(pearse street)

It’s about 10 minutes. You wouldn’t have to do this in any other Western European capital. That’s my point. For example, I work on Harcourt St, roughly half way between Harcourt and Stephens green stops. I was heading out to Grand Canal dock area to meet some friends before U2 last Monday after work. It was quicker for me to walk 25 minutes, than it would have been to get public transport there. And this is 2 major areas pretty close to the centre of the city. The alternative was to get a bus on Camden St, and wait for a 1 or 77a, which are not very frequent. Because of the walk between LUAS and DART there was no purpose to getting a DART out. At least after the Cross City is done, the walk to Tara St (or Dawson to Pearse) will be about half that currently from Stephens Green to Pearse.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

I mean the following in the politest possible sense, as you are an extremely constructive poster across a range of issues. But your post above is reflective of a bureaucratic mindset which throws up a stream of micro-obstacles that aggregate into a big mess.

I take your point that the NTA are now nominally in charge of the network. But it is a system built chaotically over several generations by Dublin Bus. And (from what I can tell) any reform is both slow and piecemeal once DB management and unions get involved.

Re the bus stops I would gladly sacrifice the one actually outside my house for a 200 metre walk to the next one, if it would speed up the service.

In short: I live and work in places where DB coverage and frequency is probably at its best. It is still far slower than bike, slower than car and I can keep up on foot on a wet December morning. Why am I funding a service through my taxes that even someone as well placed as me to use its services refuses to?

With respect - you are missing the point.

Re the NTA - I was correcting your point regarding who was responsible - it is important to get that right.

As for a "chaotic network" - we've just gone through a complete network re-design - I'm not really sure what you're expecting (apart from a redesign and increase in the number of orbital services).

As for ticketing, the issue of funding public transport is key to how it operates. Changing how the ticketing works will have an impact on fare box revenues. That will affect the company finances, which are all in a precarious state. Someone will end up paying for it.

Now I am sorry if that comes across as a "bureaucratic mindset", but I tend to think that ensuring that the companies are adequately financed is kind of important, given that they are operating essential services. And given our politicians have been cutting expenditure, maintaining fare box revenue has become even more important. I'm being realistic about this.

That's also why you can see that the moves towards fare structure simplification is done in such a phased manner. The NTA are trying to avoid any large shocks to the finances.

With regard to bus stops, you may happily give up a stop, but other people may have had to walk a distance to reach that stop from their homes. It's not as simple as just removing stops for the sake of it.

There are indeed stops that could be merged, but I'll repeat that they are far fewer than you might think. It's a city bus service - not an express service.

That's why I would be of the opinion there is scope for developing more peak hour Xpresso services and ultimately BRT rather than mass culling of bus stops.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

It’s about 10 minutes. You wouldn’t have to do this in any other Western European capital. That’s my point. For example, I work on Harcourt St, roughly half way between Harcourt and Stephens green stops. I was heading out to Grand Canal dock area to meet some friends before U2 last Monday after work. It was quicker for me to walk 25 minutes, than it would have been to get public transport there. And this is 2 major areas pretty close to the centre of the city. The alternative was to get a bus on Camden St, and wait for a 1 or 77a, which are not very frequent. Because of the walk between LUAS and DART there was no purpose to getting a DART out. At least after the Cross City is done, the walk to Tara St (or Dawson to Pearse) will be about half that currently from Stephens Green to Pearse.

Emm, you could take the 15a or 15b from Camden Street to Grand Canal Dock directly (every 15 minutes).

Chivito550

lxflyer wrote: »

Emm, you could take the 15a or 15b from Camden Street to Grand Canal Dock directly (every 15 minutes).

Ahhh, you're right. I never thought about that bus. I sort of forgot about it as it crosses the Liffey, so slipped my mind that it actually finishes up again on the south side. Still reckon I'd have been quicker walking. It takes the scenic route.

filbert the fox

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect - you are missing the point.

Re the NTA - I was correcting your point regarding who was responsible - it is important to get that right.

As for a "chaotic network" - we've just gone through a complete network re-design - I'm not really sure what you're expecting.

As for ticketing, the issue of funding public transport is key to how it operates. Changing how the ticketing works will have an impact on fare box revenues. That will affect the company finances, which are all in a precarious state. Someone will end up paying for it.

Now I am sorry if that comes across as a "bureaucratic mindset", but I tend to think that ensuring that the companies are adequately financed is kind of important, given that they are operating essential services. And given our politicians have been cutting expenditure, maintaining fare box revenue has become even more important. I'm being realistic about this.

That's also why you can see that the moves towards fare structure simplification is done in such a phased manner. The NTA are trying to avoid any large shocks to the finances.

With regard to bus stops, you may happily give up a stop, but other people may have had to walk a distance to reach that stop from their homes. It's not as simple as just removing stops for the sake of it.

There are indeed stops that could be merged, but I'll repeat that they are far fewer than you might think. It's a city bus service - not an express service.

That's why I would be of the opinion there is scope for developing more peak hour Xpresso services and ultimately BRT rather than mass culling of bus stops.

I would always consider the causes of problems first before administering the medicine.

Why in the digital age is it so necessary for people to travel to work? I realise that there are unavoidable scenarios where one needs to be at one's workpoint but there must be scope to reduce the countless numbers commuting who could work locally/from home etc.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Ahhh, you're right. I never thought about that bus. I sort of forgot about it as it crosses the Liffey, so slipped my mind that it actually finishes up again on the south side. Still reckon I'd have been quicker walking. It takes the scenic route.

There can't be buses covering every single possible trip directly.

Those buses serve the IFSC by operating that way, which I seem to recall you were complaining about not being connected to!

Also the 14 and 15 operate via Amiens Street which is within walking distance of the IFSC too.

MrMorooka

I took the 39a out to Clonsilla yesterday morning, and it was actually great. With no traffic on the road and not so many passengers around, from Aston Quay to just outside Ongar only took 40 minutes, if it was always that good I'd probably still be using it. The sad thing is it would be totally possible to replicate that journey time throughout the day/week, by increasing frequency/ cutting stops so there is less stopping, and proper bus lanes, signals and segregation so the bus shares no space with general traffic, at least until it reaches the quieter parts of the route in D15.

I then took the train back into town in the afternoon, and it was odd to note that our half empty commuter service was operated by a 4car 22k, while the 1600 Sligo train coming in the opposite direction seemed to be a 4car 29k.

cgcsb

MrMorooka wrote: »

proper bus lanes, signals and segregation so the bus shares no space with general traffic, at least until it reaches the quieter parts of the route in D15.

How would this be done in between Cabra and the City Centre?

Dyr

So if the luas is going down O'Connell Street how are the corporation going to close it every second weekend?

MrMorooka

cgcsb wrote: »

How would this be done in between Cabra and the City Centre?

With great difficulty

The NTA seems to think it was possible, it's in their BRT/Swiftway plans. I'd imagine it realistically involves a lot of CPOing of front gardens and tight restrictions on access. There is actually lots of space on most of the roads if you are willing to remove general traffic lanes.

EDIT: traffic is generally not too bad along the Old Cabra Rd route anyway, so that area could make do with lesser measures of segregation. The real issues are the Navan Road between Tesco and the Halfway House, then the whole area around the Blanchardstown Centre.

Mahogany

filbert the fox wrote: »

who could work locally/from home etc.

That's basically prison though.

syklops

Mahogany wrote: »

That's basically prison though.

Working from home is awesome.

MrMorooka

Working from home could work, but it requires a big cultural shift from employers an employees. Personally I'd hate it, in my mind the work location and the act of going to it puts my mind in the 'do work' mode, whereas the comfort of my own home is for fun and relaxation. Bear in mind too that people are socially conditioned from ~18 years of schooling into a 'go somewhere 9-5, do work' mindset, so breaking that is a big task.

From employers' side, a lot of managerial types still act on the 'if I can't see you at your desk typing/clicking you're not doing any work' mindset. Middle managers are probably terrified of a widescale push, because a company made up of independent and autonomous workers will have little need for the filler levels of supervisors and managers that hang around offices. Doesn't suit the extroverts who are great at playing the corporate game but not so great at actually doing something productive.

Dyr

MrMorooka wrote: »

Working from home could work, but it requires a big cultural shift from employers an employees.

Employer saves a fortune on heating, electricity, facilities etc

magicbastarder

ezra_pound wrote: »

But do you own a car?

i do. as i mentioned, it depends on the context.

collie0708

Don't use public transport often due to my commute taking twice as long due to poor connectivity. However got the red line luas today and it desperately needs more security as the amount of undesirables just hoping on and off with no tickets is crazy I was delighted to get of the thing. Just got onto the train and 2 junkies across from me having a few cans talking about how 1 of them in sue in court for breaking into houses 😡😡😡 wish I had brought the car

LXFlyer

MrMorooka wrote: »

Working from home could work, but it requires a big cultural shift from employers an employees. Personally I'd hate it, in my mind the work location and the act of going to it puts my mind in the 'do work' mode, whereas the comfort of my own home is for fun and relaxation. Bear in mind too that people are socially conditioned from ~18 years of schooling into a 'go somewhere 9-5, do work' mindset, so breaking that is a big task.

From employers' side, a lot of managerial types still act on the 'if I can't see you at your desk typing/clicking you're not doing any work' mindset. Middle managers are probably terrified of a widescale push, because a company made up of independent and autonomous workers will have little need for the filler levels of supervisors and managers that hang around offices. Doesn't suit the extroverts who are great at playing the corporate game but not so great at actually doing something productive.

It can work for some people, but speaking personally I'd miss the social interaction of actually working with people in an office.

There are of course jobs suited to it, but again working from home will certainly not suit an awful lot of people.

Dyr

Bray Head wrote: »

Here's a few brief answers to your questions:

Dublin Bus are incapable of implementing basic operational efficiencies such as fewer stops, time-based ticketing, a useable timetable and using middle doors. This could improve journey times by 10% to 30% at very little cost. Dublin Bus is the most used mode in Dublin. I really think that reform efforts should start with the bus network as this is where there is most bang for buck.

.

I'v always said that reintroducing conductors would solve most of dublin buses major drawbacks but it's too crazy an idea to ever happen.

end of the road

Bray Head wrote: »

Dublin Bus are incapable of implementing basic operational efficiencies such as fewer stops, time-based ticketing, a useable timetable and using middle doors. This could improve journey times by 10% to 30% at very little cost.

in fairness dublin bus wouldn't have a say over the amount of stops. if they try remove stops the backclash would probably make such a plan not worth the bother. the middle doors are a problem due to some of the stops and spaces not being set up for it, i hope that will change. isn't time-based ticketing being implemented? what would you consider a usable timetable?

NiallBoo

Couldn't time-based ticketing potentially be a disincentive to improving service?

Chivito550

NiallBoo wrote: »

Couldn't time-based ticketing potentially be a disincentive to improving service?

Yeh what's the appeal of time based ticketing? If you spend 60 minutes on a bus, through horrific traffic you pay more than on a quiet Friday morning where you fly in in 35 minutes. That is utterly stupid.

Why can't we just implement "touch on, touch off" like with the LUAS? Have standard public transport zones (not different ones for buses, LUAS and trains). If you touch on in zone 4, and get off in zone 4, you pay less, than if you touch off in zone 2. If you forget to touch off, you pay the maximum fare. Simple.

end of the road

MrMorooka wrote: »

I then took the train back into town in the afternoon, and it was odd to note that our half empty commuter service was operated by a 4car 22k, while the 1600 Sligo train coming in the opposite direction seemed to be a 4car 29k.

i'm afraid operating long distance stock on suburban services which they cannot cope with, while operating suburban stock on long distance services which don't justify the capacity, is the irish rail way.