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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread III

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    #3302
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I dont think it matters that they came through at Connacht or not

    the concern is that as soon as they get some game time or show what they can do off they go

    Connacht never have a chance to develop

    Of course it does.

    The whole point of their moving was to get gametime. Do you want to force them to stay at Connacht or what?


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    #3303
    Risteard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,698 ✭✭✭Risteard


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Don't really see him being forced in that sense but if he's told he won't be selected for Ireland staying in Connacht, what's he going to do.

    I don't think he would be explicitly told you're not playing for Ireland if you don't move from Connacht but if a competitor is performing consistently at a higher level, it's logical that he be the one chosen.

    Obviously the Pro 12 from will count and will give a good indication but in tight decisions it's natural that the guy performing at the higher level will probably win out.


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    #3304
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    danthefan wrote: »
    Of course it does.

    The whole point of their moving was to get gametime. Do you want to force them to stay at Connacht or what?

    I think this post represents exactly the concerns from Connacht fans about how they are looked at by the IRFU


    No I don't want to force people to stay anywhere

    I also don't want to force people to move either


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    #3305
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Risteard wrote: »
    I don't think he would be explicitly told you're not playing for Ireland if you don't move from Connacht but if a competitor is performing consistently at a higher level, it's logical that he be the one chosen.

    Obviously the Pro 12 from will count and will give a good indication but in tight decisions it's natural that the guy performing at the higher level will probably win out.

    Going by what Joe has said so far, himself and Cave are the front runners for the 13 jersey, Joe has also said though that Rabo is not a good preparation for International duty so it would clearly give Cave an advantage if that line is followed.


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    #3306
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Going by what Joe has said so far, himself and Cave are the front runners for the 13 jersey, Joe has also said though that Rabo is not a good preparation for International duty so it would clearly give Cave an advantage if that line is followed.

    And I would agree with him. Some of the Rabo games are desperately poor quality, others are much better. But just like ITM cup back home, not a good gauge for test match footy. Frankly, I don't know why Henshaw wants to stay in Connacht, he would have a guaranteed start at 13 for Leinster next season, and probably Munster too, and like it or not, this gives him his best chance of pushing his Irish claims.


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    #3307
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    And I would agree with him. Some of the Rabo games are desperately poor quality, others are much better. But just like ITM cup back home, not a good gauge for test match footy. Frankly, I don't know why Henshaw wants to stay in Connacht, he would have a guaranteed start at 13 for Leinster next season, and probably Munster too, and like it or not, this gives him his best chance of pushing his Irish claims.

    The only one who could answer that is Henshaw himself, maybe he thinks he is good enough to make it while playing for Connacht, it's admirable though that he is putting the team ahead of his own aspirations.


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    #3308
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Don't really see him being forced in that sense but if he's told he won't be selected for Ireland staying in Connacht, what's he going to do.

    He's never going to be told that. What he will be told is that it'll be better for his career if he looks to play at a higher level club wise. As it stands Connacht are in the lower mid table region of the Rabo and in the Amlin next season.

    The unfortunate reality of the situation is that Connacht have never finished higher than 8th and will need to finish in 6th, or higher, to get into the HEC. The doomsdayer will say that he needs to move sooner rather than later.

    On the other hand one more win this season will equal Connachts best amount of points for a season and anything after that will best it. Two wins and I'd say they'll finish 7th.

    If Connacht can get into the HEC I can see this problem going away so it's in their interests to make it so.


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    #3309
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    He's never going to be told that. What he will be told is that it'll be better for his career if he looks to play at a higher level club wise. As it stands Connacht are in the lower mid table region of the Rabo and in the Amlin next season.

    That's pretty much what I meant, not because it's Connacht but because the level they are competing at.

    Maybe he is buying into the idea Connacht are building a team capeable of getting 6th though.


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    #3310
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Could be.

    Equally I'd say he knows that the game time he'll get at Connacht at the moment is gonna be fair more beneficial to him than moving province. He is still only 20 so no need to rush just yet.


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    #3311
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Could be.

    Equally I'd say he knows that the game time he'll get at Connacht at the moment is gonna be fair more beneficial to him than moving province. He is still only 20 so no need to rush just yet.

    It's easy to forget that part.


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    #3312
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    Bundee Aki talks to 3News about his move to Connacht


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    #3313
    Molester Stallone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,313 ✭✭✭Molester Stallone


    One of the worries I would have with the IRFU telling people to move from Connacht is who decides where they go?
    Leinster & Munster both need centres, how would it be decided, what criteria would come into place & how would this system not be misused or abused?


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    #3314
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,756 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    marc96 wrote: »
    For example lots if saffers play for Zimbabwe as they tend to think they can walk into the international side,same with Ireland,they not good enough for their home nation so they jump ship hoping to play for a lesser team where they get the chance to play international tests!
    Molester Stallone wrote: »
    One of the worries I would have with the IRFU telling people to move from Connacht is who decides where they go?
    Leinster & Munster both need centres, how would it be decided, what criteria would come into place & how would this system not be misused or abused?

    Surely then it's up to the provinces to fight for his signature and then he will decide where to go.


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    #3315
    Molester Stallone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,313 ✭✭✭Molester Stallone


    bilston wrote: »
    Surely then it's up to the provinces to fight for his signature and then he will decide where to go.

    It's not up to the provinces though is it? That's where the problem could lie


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    #3316
    ScissorPaperRock
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    Molester Stallone wrote: »
    One of the worries I would have with the IRFU telling people to move from Connacht is who decides where they go?
    Leinster & Munster both need centres, how would it be decided, what criteria would come into place & how would this system not be misused or abused?

    It sounds like the IRFU Performance Director could have a strong say in such matters, as well as the players themselves.


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    #3317
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I think this post represents exactly the concerns from Connacht fans about how they are looked at by the IRFU


    No I don't want to force people to stay anywhere

    I also don't want to force people to move either

    That I would agree with, which is why I would contend that forcing a Connacht produced player like Henshaw to move is a whole different kettle of fish to Cronin/Keatley/whoever coming through somewhere else, moving to Connacht, then moving on again.
    ScissorPaperRock wrote: »
    It sounds like the IRFU Performance Director could have a strong say in such matters, as well as the players themselves.

    I'd imagine the whole point of Nocifura is that he has absolutely no allegiance to any province, he's as neutral as anyone could be in the position.


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    #3318
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I wouldn't say it's that hard to decide who is in the greater need of a 13

    Leinster: Macken, Fitz, McFadden
    Munster: Earls


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    #3319
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    I wouldn't say it's that hard to decide who is in the greater need of a 13

    Leinster: Macken, Fitz, McFadden
    Munster: Earls/Bohane/Dineen

    FYP!


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    #3320
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Suppose you're right.

    Anyway considering the way Munster chew up centres within 2 years he'd have moved on :D


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    #3321
    former legend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭former legend


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    I wouldn't say it's that hard to decide who is in the greater need of a 13

    Leinster: Macken, Fitz, McFadden
    Munster: Earls

    If they're our 13s then we need more wingers! What's Trimble's contract situation?

    Lads, this Henshaw debate is gone mad. There is no indication from anyone that he's going anywhere. We all need to stop paying attention to headlines in the Indo.


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    #3322
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    former legend wrote: »
    If they're our 13s then we need more wingers! What's Trimble's contract situation?

    Can Henshaw play on the wing?

    :D


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    #3323
    Molester Stallone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,313 ✭✭✭Molester Stallone


    former legend wrote: »
    If they're our 13s then we need more wingers! What's Trimble's contract situation?

    Lads, this Henshaw debate is gone mad. There is no indication from anyone that he's going anywhere. We all need to stop paying attention to headlines in the Indo.

    Just to let ye know, a great lad called James Downey is available for rent next season :)


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    #3324
    b.gud
    Registered Users Posts: 4,797 ✭✭✭b.gud


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    I wouldn't say it's that hard to decide who is in the greater need of a 13

    Leinster: Macken, Fitz, McFadden
    Munster: Earls/Bohane/Dineen
    Connacht: Henshaw,Aki(out of position),Poolman(we'd have to be pretty stuck he is really best on the wing)
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    FYP!

    Yep you're right it seems pretty clear who is most in need of a 13.

    All the talk on this thread re Henshaw has been how it would benefit him, his development and Ireland to be playing Heineken cup rugby with Leinster/Munster. There has also been it would be great to have system where players can move between provinces to get game time and further their career

    So let's look about a few players who are not first choice in their position and stand to benefit from a move. Martin Moore, Ian Madigan, Jack McGrath and JJ Hanrahan.

    The Connacht pack has been excellent this season but we did lose Brett to injury so we'll take Jack McGrath (obviously solely for the good of Ireland)

    Ulster are losing Court and Afoa so it only makes sense that Moore should move up north. (He would be starting in Heineken cup rugby)

    Connacht are badly in need of a top quality 10. JJ has been sniping at Keatleys heels a lot this season and it's been pretty much 50/50 in terms of selection so he's probably best where he is. Madigan has been largely second choice, (he started 2 out of Leinsters 7 Heineken cup games). So he would surely benefit from being the first choice outhalf. we'll take him as well thanks (for the benefit of the player obviously)


    Is any of the above going to happen? Of course not and no one is suggesting it will, and that's kind of my point.

    Even though I know that most, nearly all, of the people who post here don't view Connacht as a development province. A lot of the discussion about the subject seems to have had a little bit of that feel about it. Connacht have been improving fairly steadily year on year, and though it has taken a while for Pat Lams style to really click with the team I think it is starting to catch hold now and I really see no reason why we won't be able to qualify for the HEC on our own merit next year. If we continue to fall short of that level then when Henshaws contract is up in 2016 I think that most Connacht fans would wish him well if he decided to move to another province because he would have more top level rugby. At that stage he would have given 4 seasons to Connacht and he still would be only 22 so there would be plenty of time for him to achieve at club and national level


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    #3325
    dtpc191991
    Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭dtpc191991


    I wouldn't mind this happening particularly where there are a backlog of players in one position. The majority of the young centre talent is at Ulster. If all the players stay some will inevitabley not fufill their potential. Say Olding leaves then suddenly within two years we could have Olding, Payne and Henshaw playing regular top class rugby at 13 which if they all fufill their potential would be very healthy for Ireland.


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    #3326
    ScissorPaperRock
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    The other thing with waiting until 2016 for Henshaw to think about moving is that the RWC is next year.

    If Connacht aren't in the ERCC, would it even be feasible to get him to a level good enough to play at 13 for Ireland in the World Cup a year from now?

    He is only 20, granted, but if he wants to play for Ireland in the World Cup he needs to be getting ERCC exposure, IMO.


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    #3327
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    dtpc191991 wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind this happening particularly where there are a backlog of players in one position. The majority of the young centre talent is at Ulster. If all the players stay some will inevitabley not fufill their potential. Say Olding leaves then suddenly within two years we could have Olding, Payne and Henshaw playing regular top class rugby at 13 which if they all fufill their potential would be very healthy for Ireland.

    But if Olding stays where he is and plays with Payne, the best full back in Ireland, that would be better still in my opinion. Olding so far is a 10 / 12 and 15 but on watching him for a number of years and seeing his ability and pace, I see 13 as being possibly his best potential position...... or perhaps the position that makes the best use of his talent which isn't the same thing. Given that he won't play 10 for Ulster, he will be here as a 12 or 13 and cover for 15. Ulster have at least 2or 3 other good 15s not counting Bowe and Gilroy so I'd see it as an increasingly rare selection re Olding.

    Payne is an immaculate 15 and his attacking game is wonderful but at 13 I've only seen him put in what could be best described as 'decent' performances. I have to qualify that by saying he has usually only played there in weaker selections but in fact Cave is a far better 13 on what I've seen over the last 3 ish years. Why should either of them move rather than stay together and play in what would perhaps be a very significant proportion of Ireland's back-line squad. They would be together with Bowe, Trimble, Jackson, Luke Marshall, Gilroy and Rory Scholes who also looks to be a player in the Olding mould. Even Stuart McCloskey in a few appearances seems to have that extra something that makes players stand out. Time will tell but given his size, - he's a big fecker, his pace and step and passing and off loading game I wouldn't be surprised if he soon gets more recognition at Ulster.

    It seems to me that some posters feel a totally unjustifiable sense of entitlement over good players. For example, O'Driscoll retires and they feel they are immediately entitled to rake over the best Irish 13s and shift them to Dublin. Many Leinster fans are quite sure that Fitzgerald is the next best Irish 13 after BOD and McFadden is no slouch there. Macken has never been given a prolonged run. Why do they think they can cherry pick the rest?

    If the answer is so that the best players are all together in one provincial team, that argument does hold some merit. For the last 15 years this has been true of either Munster or Leinster but things don't remain unchanged. When their province is short of a player they feel that the gap should be filled by a player going well in another and that they somehow have first call on their services. They don't. Henshaw I'm pretty sure would have known that he could easily get a contract with Leinster, Munster or even Ulster before he signed his new one with Connacht. I doubt if he was coerced into signing it. Guys like Henshaw and Olding only come along simultaneously once every few years....like BOD and Darcy. They don't play in the same team unless it's Ireland.

    One possible pressure that might change how our players are distributed is the new ERCC. Increasingly it will be difficult for irish provinces to compete with teams in England and France who have lost sight of what Rugby Union should be about and simply buy success. If the sense that we are somehow handicapping ourselves by not concentrating our talent more closely should ever arise, I can see the IRFU changing how contracts are managed. As things stand, Henshaw has given an agreement to Connacht and likewise Payne and Olding to Ulster. That's where they should stay or we are no different from Wray, Boudjellal et al.


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    #3328
    former legend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭former legend


    jacothelad wrote: »
    It seems to me that some posters feel a totally unjustifiable sense of entitlement over good players. For example, O'Driscoll retires and they feel they are immediately entitled to rake over the best Irish 13s and shift them to Dublin. Many Leinster fans are quite sure that Fitzgerald is the next best Irish 13 after BOD and McFadden is no slouch there. Macken has never been given a prolonged run. Why do they think they can cherry pick the rest?

    Does any poster here think that? Anyone? That's a very unfair comment.


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    #3329
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Mackan has had plenty of opportunity too. Just doesn't look like he's going to cut it tbh


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    #3330
    MattD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭MattD


    It's quite crazy that Jackson, Trimble, Marshall, Cave, Bowe, Payne could very suddenly be Ireland's backline...


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    #3331
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    MattD wrote: »
    It's quite crazy that Jackson, Trimble, Marshall, Cave, Bowe, Payne could very suddenly be Ireland's backline...

    I don't think its crazy at all...I think its the way its going....

    their young players have been talked about for some time

    you don't even mention Olding!

    Spence, RIP, would be in the squad too imo


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