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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread III

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    #3272
    hahashake
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭hahashake


    RobbieRuns wrote: »
    Think that you are mistaken there, lots of Kiwi's and indeed Aussies refer to rugby football as just football or at times just "footie". The same would apply to Aussie rules football. They are talking about a rugby football scholarship in that article.

    No, Sivi played football as a striker. The New Zealand governing body is called New Zealand Football. That website has Football as a separate category to Rugby for a reason.


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    #3273
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    hahashake wrote: »
    No, Sivi played football as a striker. The New Zealand governing body is called New Zealand Football. That website has Football as a separate category to Rugby for a reason.

    You win, I was wrong :o


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    #3274
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Ha! I'd love to see Sivi play as a striker. He'd just run everyone off the ball.


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    #3275
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    .ak wrote: »
    Ha! I'd love to see Sivi play as a striker. He'd just run everyone off the ball.

    He wouldn't be any good at falling over everytime anyone came near him though.


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    #3276
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    hahashake wrote: »
    Sivivatu came on a football scholarship, not rugby.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/sport/local-sport/2856966/Sivivatu-happy-with-his-lot

    A happy coincidence I'm sure that one of the most talented wings of his generation attended one of the most famous rugby schools in New Zealand on a football scholarship..


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    #3277
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    Tox56, you cynic you.


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    #3278
    ssaye2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭ssaye2


    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rabodirect-pro12/henshaw-future-in-new-chiefs-hands-30185711.html


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    #3279
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    ssaye2 wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rabodirect-pro12/henshaw-future-in-new-chiefs-hands-30185711.html

    A lot of speculation and conjecture based around a genuine news article.


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    #3280
    its_phil
    Registered Users Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭its_phil


    ssaye2 wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rabodirect-pro12/henshaw-future-in-new-chiefs-hands-30185711.html
    From reading the article, if the other provinces believe it should be a two way flow of transfers between Connacht and the rest, I'd question how they've got the raw end of the deal in the past.


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    #3281
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    stephen_n wrote: »
    A lot of speculation and conjecture based around a genuine news article.

    I'd be fully in favour. Have a system like SXV, where you can protect 26 players or such, and then the other provinces can swoop for the leftovers that might suit their own particular needs. I don't think it helps anyone to have an abundance of talent twiddling their thumbs in Leinster or Munster.


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    #3282
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    I'd be fully in favour. Have a system like SXV, where you can protect 26 players or such, and then the other provinces can swoop for the leftovers that might suit their own particular needs. I don't think it helps anyone to have an abundance of talent twiddling their thumbs in Leinster or Munster.

    But as was pointed out Leinster have used the guts of 50 players this season between the two teams, so it's hardly twiddling thumbs. I do think players moving around the provinces based on needs would be a good situation for the game overall though. Moving for the sake of it though helps no one, like Conway going to Munster, when he would have been more use to Connacht. It's the way forward to hire an outsider in though who's not invested in the provincial system in any way.


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    #3283
    hahashake
    Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭hahashake


    Tox56 wrote: »
    A happy coincidence I'm sure that one of the most talented wings of his generation attended one of the most famous rugby schools in New Zealand on a football scholarship..

    I'm happy about it. :)


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    #3284
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    stephen_n wrote: »
    But as was pointed out Leinster have used the guts of 50 players this season between the two teams, so it's hardly twiddling thumbs. I do think players moving around the provinces based on needs would be a good situation for the game overall though. Moving for the sake of it though helps no one, like Conway going to Munster, when he would have been more use to Connacht. It's the way forward to hire an outsider in though who's not invested in the provincial system in any way.

    Yeah but someone like SCM gets a handful of games here and there, Conan got 80 minutes and Hudson/JOC barely got a look in, but they still count towards that 50 players. If anything that many players suggests there just isn't room for all of them to be getting the necessary game time.

    There are many more examples obviously, but on a case by case basis I would be massively in favour of something like this. This season Leinster alone are losing JOC, Hudson and Gilsenan to England, and there have been significant others who have done the same in recent years, as well as players at other provinces (Farrell at Ulster moving to France being the biggest one, would have been perfect at Leinster with us so light on centres).

    Obviously forcing players to do things isnt really possible, but more co-operation and common sense when dealing with things like this (the Gilsenan loan move to Connacht was a great idea for example, something that should be repeated) can only be a good thing.

    Jared Payne for eg. played for 3 of the NZ Super Rugby franchises in 4 years when he was over there. If we ever want to succeed as a national side we have to learn from the best, and Jared moving to Leinster really is the only sensible course of action.


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    #3285
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Yeah but someone like SCM gets a handful of games here and there, Conan got 80 minutes and Hudson/JOC barely got a look in, but they still count towards that 50 players. If anything that many players suggests there just isn't room for all of them to be getting the necessary game time.

    There are many more examples obviously, but on a case by case basis I would be massively in favour of something like this. This season Leinster alone are losing JOC, Hudson and Gilsenan to England, and there have been significant others who have done the same in recent years, as well as players at other provinces (Farrell at Ulster moving to France being the biggest one, would have been perfect at Leinster with us so light on centres).

    Obviously forcing players to do things isnt really possible, but more co-operation and common sense when dealing with things like this (the Gilsenan loan move to Connacht was a great idea for example, something that should be repeated) can only be a good thing.

    Jared Payne for eg. played for 3 of the NZ Super Rugby franchises in 4 years when he was over there. If we ever want to succeed as a national side we have to learn from the best, and Jared moving to Leinster really is the only sensible course of action.
    :pac::pac::pac:

    In the end Gilsenan moved to England though despite the move to Connacht, I accept the point with the other players, however the bit I don't understand there, is how it's not done on a first refusal basis, i.e. that each province doesn't get the option to sign fringe players once their current province decides not to keep them on. Maybe this does happen and we are not privy to it?

    Surely Conan and SCM will get more game time next season, I suppose there is a development path that has to be followed, it's not like they would be starting at any of the other provinces either given their age and development.


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    #3286
    ScissorPaperRock
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    I wonder if the fact that qualification for the ERCC will be based on PRO12 performance will reduce the scope for using as many fringe players too.

    I'm all for greater fluidity between the provinces to be honest. If Henshaw is seen as a genuine option for replacing BOD, I wouldn't mind seeing him move to Leinster or Munster (he would clearly be surplus to requirements at Ulster).

    Between Payne, Marshall, Cave and Olding, Ulster will have four top class centres next season, all of which should have international ambitions. There'd have to be some scope for movement there.

    But it has to be a two-way thing.


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    #3287
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

    I'm all for greater fluidity between the provinces to be honest. If Henshaw is seen as a genuine option for replacing BOD, I wouldn't mind seeing him move to Leinster or Munster (he would clearly be surplus to requirements at Ulster).

    The problem is it always seems to be the top talent flowing out of the west and the fringe players going that way.


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    #3288
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    I quite like the "romance" of players under-appreciated by their own province making it big elsewhere. The Blues rejected Malakai Fekitoa, and the Highlanders snapped him up. He's now being talked about as a potential next Connacht AB centre.


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    #3289
    marc96
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 300 ✭✭marc96


    desertcircus wrote: »
    Strauss is South African and Irish. Just like the people all of us know who are Polish and Irish, Moldovan and Irish, Canadian and Irish...

    So anyone here for 3yrs is Irish??so all the Irish that are in oz the last 3yrs it more are now Australian???he is South African and only South African.just because it suits the Irish to have him in the team u can't now call him irish.


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    #3290
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    marc96 wrote: »
    So anyone here for 3yrs is Irish??so all the Irish that are in oz the last 3yrs it more are now Australian???he is South African and only South African.just because it suits the Irish to have him in the team u can't now call him irish.

    no....you need to live here 5 years before applying for citizenship


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    #3291
    tickingover
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭tickingover


    stephen_n wrote: »
    The problem is it always seems to be the top talent flowing out of the west and the fringe players going that way.

    Exactly this. I dont remember anyone banging on about fluidity and players getting top level exposure when Madigan was behind Sexton and not getting heineken cup gametime or Jordi Murphy or JJ Hanrahan or any other player but all of sudden everyone is v worried about Henshaws exposure levels down in Galway.


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    #3292
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    tickingover wrote: »
    Exactly this. I dont remember anyone banging on about fluidity and players getting top level exposure when Madigan was behind Sexton and not getting heineken cup gametime or Jordi Murphy or JJ Hanrahan or any other player but all of sudden everyone is v worried about Henshaws exposure levels down in Galway.

    the problem here is a lack of identifed options at 13 for Ireland


    Munster, Linster and Ulster had Irish 10s so Madigan's or JJ's gametime was not as much a concern


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    #3293
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    stephen_n wrote: »
    The problem is it always seems to be the top talent flowing out of the west and the fringe players going that way.

    Who are you talking about here exactly?


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    #3294
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    danthefan wrote: »
    Who are you talking about here exactly?

    in fairness you can point to any number of moves

    I think the point is Connacht regulars rather than Connacht fringe players move one way

    and other provinces fringe players move one way and never regulars


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    #3295
    Grimebox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    Mike McCarthy spring to mind. He moved to Leinster as soon as he became a regular in the Ireland camp


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    #3296
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Riskymove wrote: »
    in fairness you can point to any number of moves

    I think the point is Connacht regulars rather than Connacht fringe players move one way

    and other provinces fringe players move one way and never regulars

    McCarthy as pointed out, I don't think you can point to many others.

    Guys like Keatley, Cronin, Carr, Jackman back in the day etc all came from other provinces in the first place, they didn't come through at Connacht.


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    #3297
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    danthefan wrote: »
    McCarthy as pointed out, I don't think you can point to many others.

    Guys like Keatley, Cronin, Carr, Jackman back in the day etc all came from other provinces in the first place, they didn't come through at Connacht.

    I dont think it matters that they came through at Connacht or not

    the concern is that as soon as they get some game time or show what they can do off they go

    Connacht never have a chance to develop


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    #3298
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,307 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    This really comes down to whether the international team comes first, as a Leinster supporter I would be delighted to see Henshaw or Payne come to us. However if I was a Connacht or Ulster supporter I would be very pissed off. If a system like this was to work it would have to have a massive 4 way street, for arguments sake Jack Mc Grath swap for Payne would be a good move, something both teams need but could live without the player they are losing, Connacht would really need 2 or 3 of Leinsters better squad players for Henshaw, its not enough to send an up and coming player west it needs to be guys who are better than connacht have in their team now. Of course as with everything in Irish rugby we will all retreat into our provincial bias as soon as it affects our team, me included.


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    #3299
    Risteard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,698 ✭✭✭Risteard


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I dont think it matters that they came through at Connacht or not

    the concern is that as soon as they get some game time or show what they can do off they go

    Connacht never have a chance to develop

    You can't force these guys to stay at Connacht. Those players would have moved to Connacht in the first place specifically for gametime and exposure in an effort to possibly get a first team spot or chance to fight for a first team spot at their own province or another. Connacht benefit from them playing there, and the others get gametime at a level they wouldn't otherwise get.

    In any case Henshaw shouldn't be forced to move if he doesn't want to. But if there is someone playing at 13 at Heineken Cup level versus him playing in the Amlin (or whatever the new competition names are) at 13, and the decision is close, then it's only natural that the guy playing at a higher level will probably get the benefit of the doubt.

    Either way I'd like to see Henshaw given the 13 jersey on the Argentina tour.


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    #3300
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    salmocab wrote: »
    This really comes down to whether the international team comes first, as a Leinster supporter I would be delighted to see Henshaw or Payne come to us. However if I was a Connacht or Ulster supporter I would be very pissed off. If a system like this was to work it would have to have a massive 4 way street, for arguments sake Jack Mc Grath swap for Payne would be a good move, something both teams need but could live without the player they are losing, Connacht would really need 2 or 3 of Leinsters better squad players for Henshaw, its not enough to send an up and coming player west it needs to be guys who are better than connacht have in their team now. Of course as with everything in Irish rugby we will all retreat into our provincial bias as soon as it affects our team, me included.

    Which is why I think a SXV model would work where a province can protect X number of its players. Connacht could include Henshaw in their protected players. If Ulster want to protect 4 centres, so be it, but then they have to make, I don't know, a lock available or something, which might be picked up by Munster. The coach has to choose the 25 or 30 players that he most wants, and the rest are open to transfer. I don't think professional players should be able to say I'm happy in Dublin I'm not moving to Galway, or rather they can say that, but might then not be offered a contract if they are surplus to Leinster requirements for that season.


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    #3301
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Risteard wrote: »

    In any case Henshaw shouldn't be forced to move if he doesn't want to. But if there is someone playing at 13 at Heineken Cup level versus him playing in the Amlin (or whatever the new competition names are) at 13, and the decision is close, then it's only natural that the guy playing at a higher level will probably get the benefit of the doubt.

    Don't really see him being forced in that sense but if he's told he won't be selected for Ireland staying in Connacht, what's he going to do.


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