Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread III

The Pheasant2

case885 wrote: »

Copeland who is first choice at cardiff and playing well, he would have been ahead of murphy in the 6 nations if he was with an irish province.

Murphy plays across the backrow and was playing well at the time - it was probably his versatility that clinched it

RoundBox11

LH: McGrath, Cronin (Kilcoynes scrummaging lately hasn't been good enough)

HK: Cronin, Strauss

TH: Moore, Ross, Ah You (id like to get a better look at what ah you is made of. This way we can figure out if he's a realistic option).

2nd row: Toner, Tuohy, Ryan, Henderson

Back row: Ferris, Henry, TOD, Ruddock, Copeland

SH: Marmion, reddan, Hart (wont happen I know).

FH: Jackson, Keatley

Centre: Marshall, Darcy, Cave, Henshaw

Wings: Trimble, Fitz, Earls, Zebo

Fullback: Kearney X 2


Thatd be my team for now anyway

Hagz

I really can't see Schmidt not taking and starting Sexton. These two tests will be about the 13 jersey more than anything else and I'd imagine he'll want to get a good look at his options in a starting back-line.

Bridge93

case885 wrote: »

Copeland who is first choice at cardiff and playing well, he would have been ahead of murphy in the 6 nations if he was with an irish province.

Havent seen Cardiff enough to comnent on his form but I am always a bit cautious with regards to players who appear in their mid 20s abroad. There must be a reason they werent picked up in Ireland somewhere? Just my thoughts.
the second part is pure speculation. Get picked ahead of him to bench for Ireland? when he covers one position? Maybe in a straight number 8 shootout yes but not to bench.
The claims murphy only carrys could equally be aimed at Copeland. Its only my biased opinion but id take murphy over him. By World Cup time Id like to think they will be streets apart (for a good reason!)

The Pheasant2

Hagz wrote: »

I really can't see Schmidt not taking and starting Sexton. These two tests will be about the 13 jersey more than anything else and I'd imagine he'll want to get a good look at his options in a starting back-line.

Yeah for all the teams being posted here; I honestly think Joe's actual selection will be a lot more conservative

tdeWires

Bridge93 wrote: »

. By World Cup time Id like to think they will be streets apart (for a good reason!)

Murphy will still be second choice at either 7 or 8.
Copeland will likely be starting 8 for Munster.

case885

Bridge93 wrote: »

Havent seen Cardiff enough to comnent on his form but I am always a bit cautious with regards to players who appear in their mid 20s abroad. There must be a reason they werent picked up in Ireland somewhere? Just my thoughts.
the second part is pure speculation. Get picked ahead of him to bench for Ireland? when he covers one position? Maybe in a straight number 8 shootout yes but not to bench.
The claims murphy only carrys could equally be aimed at Copeland. Its only my biased opinion but id take murphy over him. By World Cup time Id like to think they will be streets apart (for a good reason!)

Where did you see he onlys covers 8 because i say he covers flanker, your first point is pretty weak as there are well known examples to prove you wrong like ross.

Mahatma Geansai

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Murphy plays across the backrow and was playing well at the time - it was probably his versatility that clinched it

Does he? How often has he played 6 in his career? He isn't a HEC level 7. He has impressed as an 8 in the Pro12, but that's about the limit of it. He has huge promise but there are tonnes of options who have shown as much if not more than him at HEC level.

Bridge93

tdeWires wrote: »

Murphy will still be second choice at either 7 or 8.
Copeland will likely be starting 8 for Munster.

i think it's been mentioned before that not starting for your province doesnt mean you cant be considered internationally. Sure McGrath, Moore and Cronin shouldnt be picked then.

Heaslip and Sean O Brien are quite difficult to overtake.
Copeland will likely be starting. He may not be. Jack O donoghue is going to be a serious player.

its actually a pointless argument unless Heaslip is injured come WC time. If hes not Murphy has a chance of the bench, Copeland doesnt.

The Pheasant2

tdeWires wrote: »

Murphy will still be second choice at either 7 or 8.
Copeland will likely be starting 8 for Munster.

Well of course he'll be 2nd choice at 8 - he has the #1 in Ireland ahead of him there.

At 7...I'd say Jordi will be first choice, unless Dom Ryan comes on a bit (though I've been impressed by him of late). Jennings will be way past it by then

Mahatma Geansai

RoundBox11 wrote: »

LH: McGrath, Cronin (Kilcoynes scrummaging lately hasn't been good enough)

HK: Cronin, Strauss

TH: Moore, Ross, Ah You (id like to get a better look at what ah you is made of. This way we can figure out if he's a realistic option).

2nd row: Toner, Tuohy, Ryan, Henderson

Back row: Ferris, Henry, TOD, Ruddock, Copeland

SH: Marmion, reddan, Hart (wont happen I know).

FH: Jackson, Keatley

Centre: Marshall, Darcy, Cave, Henshaw

Wings: Trimble, Fitz, Earls, Zebo

Fullback: Kearney X 2


Thatd be my team for now anyway

Ah yeah, Kilcoyne's scrummaging has been awful. He's only had the upper hand over Ross and Haymans in recent weeks. Nothing impressive like. He's probably been Munsters best player these last 2 months.

case885

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Well of course he'll be 2nd choice at 8 - he has the #1 in Ireland ahead of him there.

At 7...I'd say Jordi will be first choice, unless Dom Ryan comes on a bit (though I've been impressed by him of late). Jennings will be way past it by then

Your shooting yourself in the foot there your trying to argue to bring him to develop him as a back up 8 but his future is at 7, doesnt make sense.

Bridge93

case885 wrote: »

Where did you see he onlys covers 8 because i say he covers flanker, your first point is pretty weak as there are well known examples to prove you wrong like ross.

I said im cautious, not that there arent examples. Tight head props develop far later than backrows do. Ross was at Quins, Copeland was in the championship with Rotherham or someone a few years ago so im just saying i need to see more of the guy before I judge him.
well if youre happy to have Copeland on the flanks thats your call, I'm not getting into that.

tdeWires

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Well of course he'll be 2nd choice at 8 - he has the #1 in Ireland ahead of him there.

At 7...I'd say Jordi will be first choice, unless Dom Ryan comes on a bit (though I've been impressed by him of late). Jennings will be way past it by then

have you forgotten SOB?

tdeWires

Copeland won player of the year for Cardiff this year.
Is he a perfect player? no
Is he as good as Heaslip? no
But Jordi Murphy isn't a superior player to him currently.

Tox56

case885 wrote: »

Where did you see he onlys covers 8 because i say he covers flanker, your first point is pretty weak as there are well known examples to prove you wrong like ross.

Copeland isn't a flanker. He was never going to bench because he only covers 8 and that's arguably the last position on the entire field we needed cover with Heaslip seemingly indestructible and both Henry and particularly POM having significant experience in the position.

The Pheasant2

tdeWires wrote: »

have you forgotten SOB?

Haha it appears I have! Touché

Bridge93

tdeWires wrote: »

Copeland won player of the year for Cardiff this year.
Is he a perfect player? no
Is he as good as Heaslip? no
But Jordi Murphy isn't a superior player to him currently.

In fairness player of the year for Cardiff this year is not a reason to pick him. As ive said i havent seen enough of him.
He probably is as good if what your all saying is true but in my (biased) opinion I'd rather take the 22 year old with a very high ceiling than the player who popped up out of nowhere in an average team and who at 26 is more likely to be at his peak.
If there is not much if anything between them at 8 would you not bring the one who can play elsewhere to a high standard? given Heaslips record and all that.

tdeWires

Personally I think Murphy will be lucky to be ahead of Conan come RWC.

tdeWires

tdeWires wrote: »

Personally I think Murphy will be lucky to be ahead of Conan come RWC.

former legend

tdeWires wrote: »

Personally I think Murphy will be lucky to be ahead of Conan come RWC.

That's a massive long shot. The RWC is 16 months away and Conan has one senior appearance to his credit, and the back row is probably the most competitive position for both Leinster and Ireland.

accidentprone1

How viable is Ferris at other positions in the back row? Has he always been at 6?

RoundBox11

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Ah yeah, Kilcoyne's scrummaging has been awful. He's only had the upper hand over Ross and Haymans in recent weeks. Nothing impressive like. He's probably been Munsters best player these last 2 months.

He did in his hole. He was dire against Ross. Did you watch the first half at the weekend against haymans? He's never been a strong scrummager.

Id have thought you'd be happy, sure cronin is from Munster!

.ak

RoundBox11 wrote: »

He did in his hole. He was dire against Ross. Did you watch the first half at the weekend against haymans? He's never been a strong scrummager.

Id have thought you'd be happy, sure cronin is from Munster!

Less of this please.

former legend

accidentprone1 wrote: »

How viable is Ferris at other positions in the back row? Has he always been at 6?

He played a bit at 8 back in the mists of time but he's a 6 now and very probably our best 6 (if back to full capacity) so I wouldn't be moving him around.

danthefan

RoundBox11 wrote: »

He did in his hole. He was dire against Ross. Did you watch the first half at the weekend against haymans? He's never been a strong scrummager.

Id have thought you'd be happy, sure cronin is from Munster!

He'll be telling us Munster actually won the game next.

Molester Stallone

The problem with Kilcoyne is that he's not cute enough. At the start of the Leinster game he was doing well against Ross, then Ross adjusted, was delaying in the engagement & Kilcoyne couldn't compensate for that.
Sunday, Haymans was eventually penalized for pulling Kilcoyne down after about 3 pens had gone against him.
Frankly, he needs to fight dirty, learn how to do it properly

Tox56

Molester Stallone wrote: »

The problem with Kilcoyne is that he's not cute enough. At the start of the Leinster game he was doing well against Ross, then Ross adjusted, was delaying in the engagement & Kilcoyne couldn't compensate for that.
Sunday, Haymans was eventually penalized for pulling Kilcoyne down after about 3 pens had gone against him.
Frankly, he needs to fight dirty, learn how to do it properly

He's been involved in a host of collapsed scrums over the last few weeks against all opposition. Either he is the most unlucky prop in the world as he was scrummaging completely legally that entire time or he has a problem that needs fixing. It seemed pretty clear to me anyway as someone who is NOT a scrum expert that he was folding under pressure in the first few scrums against Toulon. That's not about being cute, it's about technique

Mahatma Geansai

Tox56 wrote: »

He's been involved in a host of collapsed scrums over the last few weeks against all opposition. Either he is the most unlucky prop in the world as he was scrummaging completely legally that entire time or he has a problem that needs fixing. It seemed pretty clear to me anyway as someone who is NOT a scrum expert that he was folding under pressure in the first few scrums against Toulon. That's not about being cute, it's about technique

Interestingly British and Irish Lion, Paul Wallace, has joined Munster's scrum coach in criticism of Barnes' refereeing of the scrums. Both agree that Haymans was going straight to ground.

In my opinion, Kilcoyne did brilliantly to adjust his technique to ensure that Barnes realised that Haymans was at fault. Two scrummaging experts have commented on the issue, and both agree with my assessment.

former legend

Molester Stallone wrote: »

The problem with Kilcoyne is that he's not cute enough. At the start of the Leinster game he was doing well against Ross, then Ross adjusted, was delaying in the engagement & Kilcoyne couldn't compensate for that.
Sunday, Haymans was eventually penalized for pulling Kilcoyne down after about 3 pens had gone against him.
Frankly, he needs to fight dirty, learn how to do it properly

So what you're saying is that when Kilcoyne was breaking even, everything was legit, but when things went against him, it's the other guys who were breaking the rules?

Poor Dave, all the nasty big tight-heads keep cheating against him? One of the best tight-heads in world rugby over the last 20 years, and the tight-head who spent most of the Six Nations dominating his opposite numbers? On balance, who do you think would have more need to cheat to compete?

Kilcoyne needs to improve his scrummaging, that's the bare facts of it. There's no shame in that, he's still inexperienced at top level rugby. Healy was the exact same in his first few seasons at the top level and he's turned it round massively.