Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread III

accidentprone1

former legend wrote: »

Does any poster here think that? Anyone? That's a very unfair comment.

But how did we get to idea that Henshaw should/could/will/whatever to Leinster?

Genuine question.

.ak

accidentprone1 wrote: »

But how did we get to idea that Henshaw should/could/will/whatever to Leinster?

Genuine question.

My assumption would be because Leinster have a whole to fill at 13. So do Munster - however Munster have already said they're looking for a NIQ 13 I believe. Connacht and Ulster are well stocked with centres.

Riskymove

accidentprone1 wrote: »

But how did we get to idea that Henshaw should/could/will/whatever to Leinster?

Genuine question.

well there is also the idea that Schmidt is implying that henshaw needs to move and people are reacting to that too

former legend

accidentprone1 wrote: »

But how did we get to idea that Henshaw should/could/will/whatever to Leinster?

Genuine question.

The whole thing kicked off last week when the president of the IRFU, a man with no say in player movements, was asked on local radio if Henshaw would be staying at Connacht (as he is contracted to 2016); he said the only thing he could - that the needs of the national team come first and that would always be the IRFU's main focus.

So then a couple of the papers picked this up and ran with "Henshaw could be on the way to Leinster", despite there being a) no evidence that this could happen and b) that it would be Leinster he would go to rather than another province. From there it became a hot topic on boards.

And that's all fine, we can discuss hypotheticals all day long, but none of the posters here have said anything along the lines that Leinster are entitled to take players from other provinces.

jacothelad

former legend wrote: »

Does any poster here think that? Anyone? That's a very unfair comment.

It's not unfair at all. There are more than a few guys who, over the last year or so come out with statements like 'We should move Henshaw to Leinster...or Payne to Leinster....Olding to Leinster.' as if these players were a) chattels or indentured workers and that b) Leinster should somehow have first claim on their services. There is a lot of difference between wishing a good player was coming to your team than simply feeling that they should be moved there like a chess piece on a board. I'd love Furlong for example to move North but I'd never argue that he should and I certainly would never assert that Ulster somehow are so 'paramount' that any player we want should come here because we wag a finger at them. I should also say that I am totally happy with a player who themselves decide to move to play at a higher standard or with more chance of international recognition - e.g. McCarthy, Cronin et al. It was their decision. I must say that I am uneasy about the glib notion that when Nucifora gets to grips with his position that somehow he might move players around at his whim on the basis that Ireland's needs are paramount. Where would crap like that ever end? The player's needs are paramount, not their employers. I'd put human worth over team worth any day.

jacothelad

MattD wrote: »

It's quite crazy that Jackson, Trimble, Marshall, Cave, Bowe, Payne could very suddenly be Ireland's backline...

They aren't likely too do so unless other players are injured - like Sexton for example but apart from Cave all the others are demonstrably capable of doing so without much argument.

Hagz

jacothelad wrote: »

I'd love Furlong for example to move North but I'd never argue that he should and I certainly would never assert that Ulster somehow are so 'paramount' that any player we want should come here because we wag a finger at them.

Whereas a few Leinster fans have? That's utter boll*x to be honest.

ssaye2

jacothelad wrote: »

It's not unfair at all. There are more than a few guys who, over the last year or so come out with statements like 'We should move Henshaw to Leinster...or Payne to Leinster....Olding to Leinster.' as if these players were a) chattels or indentured workers and that b) Leinster should somehow have first claim on their services. There is a lot of difference between wishing a good player was coming to your team than simply feeling that they should be moved there like a chess piece on a board. I'd love Furlong for example to move North but I'd never argue that he should and I certainly would never assert that Ulster somehow are so 'paramount' that any player we want should come here because we wag a finger at them. I should also say that I am totally happy with a player who themselves decide to move to play at a higher standard or with more chance of international recognition - e.g. McCarthy, Cronin et al. It was their decision. I must say that I am uneasy about the glib notion that when Nucifora gets to grips with his position that somehow he might move players around at his whim on the basis that Ireland's needs are paramount. Where would crap like that ever end? The player's needs are paramount, not their employers. I'd put human worth over team worth any day.

You can come to Ulster but you can never leave

Its ok Jaco, big bad Leinster ain't going to take all your best players, we are just going to offer them a chance to win things.

Riskymove

ssaye2 wrote: »

Its ok Jaco, big bad Leinster ain't going to take all your best players, we are just going to offer them a chance to win things.

You're gonna advise him to join Toulon?

Buer

I must say that I am uneasy about the glib notion that when Nucifora gets to grips with his position that somehow he might move players around at his whim on the basis that Ireland's needs are paramount. Where would crap like that ever end? The player's needs are paramount, not their employers. I'd put human worth over team worth any day.

To be honest, if such a thing came to pass and DN was moving pieces around his chessboard to satisfy gaps within the provincial set ups, Ulster would benefit significantly, I'd think. I can't see him moving front line players at all so guys like Payne would be completely off limits unless they wanted to move themselves.

Ulster wouldn't lose any of their first 23, I would imagine. So players like Olding (22), Payne (15), Cave (13), Marshall (12), Bowe (14), Trimble (11) and Gilroy (23) should be fine. It would be the likes of Michael Allen that would be looked at to move to another province if there was a gap. Anyone behind those guys should, in reality, be considering a move already as they've a massive task to get decent game time.

We saw it this year with Farrell going to Grenoble and JOC going to Bristol. This situation made little sense to me. Massively promising players who are going abroad to lower level teams instead of 2 hours up/down the road. Now, these players of course have their own minds and can go where they please but the case should be made, where possible to encourage and incentivise them to sign with one of the provinces.

jacothelad

ssaye2 wrote: »

You can come to Ulster but you can never leave

Its ok Jaco, big bad Leinster ain't going to take all your best players, we are just going to offer them a chance to win things.

If that's the case now wouldn't they be better off at Toulon.

I think you are missing the point entirely. It's not about Leinster, it's about how some feel that are entitled to whoever they want. If an Ulster player ..or half a dozen Ulster players want to go to Leinster I'm happy for him / them. It's his loss...:D I'd love to see McKinney, McComish and McIlwaine line out in Blue......... now that would be a series of moves to make your mouth water.

jacothelad

Hagz wrote: »

Whereas a few Leinster fans have? That's utter boll*x to be honest.

Yes, quite often.

Hagz

Shouldn't take you long to come up with some examples if it happens that often…..

Riskymove

Hagz wrote: »

Shouldn't take you long to come up with some examples if it happens that often…..

hmmm

Hagz wrote: »

I've thought about and I've decided Payne will do very nicely.

So that sorts out outside centre, now who will we get at lock? Craig Clarke?

:pac:



sorry couldn't resist

former legend

jacothelad wrote: »

It's not unfair at all. There are more than a few guys who, over the last year or so come out with statements like 'We should move Henshaw to Leinster...or Payne to Leinster....Olding to Leinster.' as if these players were a) chattels or indentured workers and that b) Leinster should somehow have first claim on their services. There is a lot of difference between wishing a good player was coming to your team than simply feeling that they should be moved there like a chess piece on a board. I'd love Furlong for example to move North but I'd never argue that he should and I certainly would never assert that Ulster somehow are so 'paramount' that any player we want should come here because we wag a finger at them. I should also say that I am totally happy with a player who themselves decide to move to play at a higher standard or with more chance of international recognition - e.g. McCarthy, Cronin et al. It was their decision. I must say that I am uneasy about the glib notion that when Nucifora gets to grips with his position that somehow he might move players around at his whim on the basis that Ireland's needs are paramount. Where would crap like that ever end? The player's needs are paramount, not their employers. I'd put human worth over team worth any day.

The things you're complaining about simply haven't happened.

There is an ocean of difference between "Henshaw would develop better in a better team", which many posters have said, and "Leinster are entitled to take Henshaw" which is what you're accusing them of. It's not even a subtle difference.

It has never been suggested that any player would, should or has ever moved against their will; why that would change when Nucifora arrives, I have no idea.

I'm sorry now but you are just making things up and I can't fathom why.

Tox56

jacothelad wrote: »

It's not unfair at all. There are more than a few guys who, over the last year or so come out with statements like 'We should move Henshaw to Leinster...or Payne to Leinster....Olding to Leinster.' as if these players were a) chattels or indentured workers and that b) Leinster should somehow have first claim on their services. There is a lot of difference between wishing a good player was coming to your team than simply feeling that they should be moved there like a chess piece on a board. I'd love Furlong for example to move North but I'd never argue that he should and I certainly would never assert that Ulster somehow are so 'paramount' that any player we want should come here because we wag a finger at them.

I think this is a notion completely in your own head to be honest. I don't think Leinster are paramount or should otherwise be given first refusal on top players, and I can't even begin to see how you got that impression

Riskymove

oh come on lads...admit it

deep down in those blue hearts of yours...you do really believe this

jacothelad

Buer wrote: »

To be honest, if such a thing came to pass and DN was moving pieces around his chessboard to satisfy gaps within the provincial set ups, Ulster would benefit significantly, I'd think. I can't see him moving front line players at all so guys like Payne would be completely off limits unless they wanted to move themselves.

Ulster wouldn't lose any of their first 23, I would imagine. So players like Olding (22), Payne (15), Cave (13), Marshall (12), Bowe (14), Trimble (11) and Gilroy (23) should be fine. It would be the likes of Michael Allen that would be looked at to move to another province if there was a gap. Anyone behind those guys should, in reality, be considering a move already as they've a massive task to get decent game time.

We saw it this year with Farrell going to Grenoble and JOC going to Bristol. This situation made little sense to me. Massively promising players who are going abroad to lower level teams instead of 2 hours up/down the road. Now, these players of course have their own minds and can go where they please but the case should be made, where possible to encourage and incentivise them to sign with one of the provinces.

Totally agree. O'Connell and Farrell are two players of immense potential. O'Connell would have been a starter / top squad player at Ulster. Farrell would have had a natural home in Munster's back line. I feel that while they did the right thing as far as they were concerned, they may well have been advised to do so to further their development BUT...apart from Mod, Cullen, Jennings and Bowe and maybe Johne Murphy to a lesser extent, I can't recall a player who has gone away and come back better. There are guys who have done well in England. Whitten looks a better player but he would have done so here anyway. I suppose he was going to be behind Wallace and sadly Nevin Spence when he left and of course Steenson has been a high class operator for years. Whitten could return and would be an asset to any side. Steenson is too old now I think and suddenly we have 10s galore. Imagine how well he might improve Connacht who have good backs but no great 10s.

Morf

Players should be incentivised whether it is the prospect of more game time, better coaching/facilities and possibly better/longer contracts to go where the IRFU (their employer) would find them most useful.

I'm not sure anyone has suggested forcing players to move and what I've suggested above will be too much for some as it is.

Professional rugby in Ireland doesn't need gargantuan squads like Munster where they had A teams had an average age of 25/26.

The same with Leinster and the dozen or more backrows. Ulster backs etc..

I hope Nucifora/Wigglesworth annoy a lot of fans for the benefit of the test team and the less homogeneous provinces.

CIARAN_BOYLE

One way to incentivise moving for game time would be to knockabout 40% off academy, development and fringe players contracts and put a decent appearance bonus say1000 a senior game in these players contracts.

You would see a lot of players asking themselves where will they get a decent amount of game time

Aidric

Only catching up with it now but very much enjoyed the Les Kiss interview on newstalk. No idea how old it is, a week at most.

http://www.newstalk.ie/player/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/Rugby_on_Off_The_Ball/50696/2/MNR:_Les_Kiss_in_studio

Swiwi.

Josef talks to the NZ Herald

Swiwi.

When will Schmidt name his touring squad? After the Pro12 has wrapped up I suppose??

Swan Curry

I think a squad is usually named before the Pro12 final takes place,but I'm not sure if it's just a preliminary one.

Tox56

Swiwi. wrote: »

When will Schmidt name his touring squad? After the Pro12 has wrapped up I suppose??

Last year it was before the final but i dunno about this year

I was going to guess the squad but I haven't a clue, just for the backrow they'll have to chose between POM, Ruddock, Ferris, Henry, Murphy, TOD, Copeland, Heaslip and maybe SOB?

Back 3 too, Bowe, Trimble, Zebo, Earls, Fitzgerald, McFadden, D Kearney, Kearney

Good luck Joe...

sullivlo

Tox56 wrote: »

Last year it was before the final but i dunno about this year

I was going to guess the squad but I haven't a clue, just for the backrow they'll have to chose between POM, Ruddock, Ferris, Henry, Murphy, TOD, Copeland, Heaslip and maybe SOB?

Back 3 too, Bowe, Trimble, Zebo, Earls, Fitzgerald, McFadden, D Kearney, Kearney

Good luck Joe...

And on today's performance, Coughlan deserves a chance. He was immense today.

The Pheasant2

sullivlo wrote: »

And on today's performance, Coughlan deserves a chance. He was immense today.

Immense though he was, the guy's gonna turn 34 this year... Not much point in sending him when the valuable game time could be invested in a prospect like Murphy or be used to get Ferris/O'Brien (god willing) back up to scratch

molloyjh

sullivlo wrote: »

And on today's performance, Coughlan deserves a chance. He was immense today.

Coughlan was excellent but unfortunately I think that ship has sailed. Joe wants to build a squad and he won't be looking for a 34 year old back row.

sullivlo

molloyjh wrote: »

Coughlan was excellent but unfortunately I think that ship has sailed. Joe wants to build a squad and he won't be looking for a 34 year old back row.

Yes, I had forgotten his age!

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Does Keatley need surgery? Stands a decent chance of travelling considering his form