Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread III

Swiwi. · 12-04-2014 11:03pm

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

But it's a load of bull****. More Islanders are actually produced by New Zealand that end up playing for the P.I.'s e.g. Fotuali'i, Williams etc. Most islanders don't move to NZ for rugby by for economic reasons with their family. Auckland is the city with the largest P.I. population in the world. Most move under the age of 6 where if NZ are scouting them that early than they probably deserve to have them. The only contentious one going back over the last 20 years are so is Siviatu who moved at 15.

FFS!!! Most Islanders are born in NZ! They're Kiwis. Their forebears moved from the Islands at some point in the past. I think from memory 3 ABs from 2007 were born in the PIs, of which only Sitivatu had obtained double figures before moving to NZ. Anyway, I've done this thing a million times, and I can't be bothered explaining it again.

My point is more do we want the IRFU systematically chasing Kiwis to play for Ireland?

P.Walnuts · 12-04-2014 11:07pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

FFS!!! Most Islanders are born in NZ! They're Kiwis. Their forebears moved from the Islands at some point in the past. I think from memory 3 ABs from 2007 were born in the PIs, of which only Sitivatu had obtained double figures before moving to NZ. Anyway, I've done this thing a million times, and I can't be bothered explaining it again.

My point is more do we want the IRFU systematically chasing Kiwis to play for Ireland?

Devils advocate time....

IF there wasn't migration from the PI's to NZ for economic reasons, would NZ be chasing PI players for the AB's?

If only the thousands of eastern europeans that came here during the boom were into rugby :pac:

Swan Curry · 12-04-2014 11:07pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

FFS!!! Most Islanders are born in NZ! They're Kiwis. Their forebears moved from the Islands at some point in the past. I think from memory 3 ABs from 2007 were born in the PIs, of which only Sitivatu had obtained double figures before moving to NZ. Anyway, I've done this thing a million times, and I can't be bothered explaining it again.

My point is more do we want the IRFU systematically chasing Kiwis to play for Ireland?

There really isn't any evidence of this.

the baby bull elephant · 12-04-2014 11:12pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

FFS!!! Most Islanders are born in NZ! They're Kiwis. Their forebears moved from the Islands at some point in the past. I think from memory 3 ABs from 2007 were born in the PIs, of which only Sitivatu had obtained double figures before moving to NZ. Anyway, I've done this thing a million times, and I can't be bothered explaining it again.

My point is more do we want the IRFU systematically chasing Kiwis to play for Ireland?

FFS!!! Did you read my post? I'm supporting your point. I know it's a minority but I was explaining that the minority that aren't born in NZ move for non rugby reasons.

Swiwi. · 12-04-2014 11:12pm

Swan Curry wrote: »

There really isn't any evidence of this.

Probably not, and TBH the thread is heading off tangent. I was trying to ask if come let's say 2017, your Irish teams has Jake Heenan at 7, Bundee Aki at 12 and Jared Payne at 13 (and in theory Michael Bent in the front row - but he's not good enough), are people happy with this?

I mean as Ciaran Boyle pointed out the IRFU seems to target Kiwis who can potentially become Irish qualified, such that the the likes of Doug Howlett wouldn't be considered these days. It's one thing to target ABs at the end of their playing careers, but an U20 captain like Heenan. I mean if Irish talent like this started getting poached down to NZ I doubt the forum would be too happy. Let's say an Irish U20 prop make a good showing at the Junior RWC, and the next thing he's playing for the Highlanders on a 3-year contract, and states a wish to play for NZ, it would all seem surreal.

Swiwi. · 12-04-2014 11:14pm

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

FFS!!! Did you read my post? I'm supporting your point. I know it's a minority but I was explaining that the minority that aren't born in NZ move for non rugby reasons.

Yeah, sorry, I was really responding to MS. But there is this common misconception (based purely on the colour of the skin) that if you look Polynesian you were born in the Islands. Virtually all of the Polynesians playing Super XV rugby were born in NZ eg Aki was born in Auckland.

P.Walnuts · 12-04-2014 11:15pm

I just realised we talk about the AB's waaay too much on this forum

Swiwi. · 12-04-2014 11:16pm

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Devils advocate time....

IF there wasn't migration from the PI's to NZ for economic reasons, would NZ be chasing PI players for the AB's?
:

Who knows. The mass migration to NZ started in the 60s I think, well before my time...

jacothelad · 12-04-2014 11:16pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

FFS!!! Most Islanders are born in NZ! They're Kiwis. Their forebears moved from the Islands at some point in the past. I think from memory 3 ABs from 2007 were born in the PIs, of which only Sitivatu had obtained double figures before moving to NZ. Anyway, I've done this thing a million times, and I can't be bothered explaining it again.

My point is more do we want the IRFU systematically chasing Kiwis to play for Ireland?

You are asking the wrong question. It should be "Are we happy to see the Provinces bringing in SH players in order to help us compete with the vastly more wealthy clubs of England and France?" = which is what actually happens. The answer is yes. Why shouldn't we.

If the odd one qualifies to play for Ireland and is good enough to make the team then great, that's a bonus. The idea of 'project players' is a fudge to get around the self imposed 'guidelines' instituted by the bean counters, solicitors, bankers and non-rugby cohort that runs Irish rugby.

Artful_Badger · 12-04-2014 11:17pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

Probably not, and TBH the thread is heading off tangent. I was trying to ask if come let's say 2017, your Irish teams has Jake Heenan at 7, Bundee Aki at 12 and Jared Payne at 13 (and in theory Michael Bent in the front row - but he's not good enough), are people happy with this?

I mean as Ciaran Boyle pointed out the IRFU seems to target Kiwis who can potentially become Irish qualified, such that the the likes of Doug Howlett wouldn't be considered these days. It's one thing to target ABs at the end of their playing careers, but an U20 captain like Heenan. I mean if Irish talent like this started getting poached down to NZ I doubt the forum would be too happy. Let's say an Irish U20 prop make a good showing at the Junior RWC, and the next thing he's playing for the Highlanders on a 3-year contract, and states a wish to play for NZ, it would all seem surreal.

You have to wonder if they are targeting them with a mind to have them play international rugby or is it just that the possibility of International rugby down the line is an added incentive for the players making them more likely to sign for the provinces.

If an Irish player got a similar chance elsewhere that they felt they might not get in Ireland I wouldn't begrudge him for wanting to go or think any less of whatever Union gave him a shot.

Tox56 · 12-04-2014 11:17pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

My point is more do we want the IRFU systematically chasing Kiwis to play for Ireland?

Do they? The clubs look for players like Payne, Strauss, Aki, Heenan because usually they're young, talented and don't play for their national team so won't be away for half the year (a la Pienaar). If they aren't officially committed to a national side and therefore could technically become IQ isn't really a massive consideration for the clubs themselves (Strauss, Payne, Aki, Heenan could have declared/could still declare for their home nation).

Obviously the IRFU would prefer possible projects and are more likely to sanction a signing like that, but players like Muller, Botha, Du Preez, Laulala, Nacewa, Howlett, Clarke, Gopperth, Pienaar, N Williams, Terblanche, Kirchner and many, many more have all been brought to Ireland in recent years with full knowledge that they won't ever play for Ireland.

3 years is far too long to base a signing around, it's a bonus if they can one day play for Ireland, but first and foremost they have to contribute to the success of the club. There are very few NIQ spots, they have to be used wisely.

Swiwi. · 12-04-2014 11:22pm

Anyway, I look forward to seeing Aki & Payne take on Saili and Fekitoa (who is born in the Islands...) when the Lions tour down-under in 2017 :pac:

Good night gentleman!

CIARAN_BOYLE · 12-04-2014 11:23pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

Probably not, and TBH the thread is heading off tangent. I was trying to ask if come let's say 2017, your Irish teams has Jake Heenan at 7, Bundee Aki at 12 and Jared Payne at 13 (and in theory Michael Bent in the front row - but he's not good enough), are people happy with this?

I mean as Ciaran Boyle pointed out the IRFU seems to target Kiwis who can potentially become Irish qualified, such that the the likes of Doug Howlett wouldn't be considered these days. It's one thing to target ABs at the end of their playing careers, but an U20 captain like Heenan. I mean if Irish talent like this started getting poached down to NZ I doubt the forum would be too happy. Let's say an Irish U20 prop make a good showing at the Junior RWC, and the next thing he's playing for the Highlanders on a 3-year contract, and states a wish to play for NZ, it would all seem surreal.

My point was that the irfu want provinces to have a succession plan and wont tolerate a nie locking down a position lock term. The provinces can sign a Afoa, or a Kirchener, or a Botha but the IRFU wants it to be for 2/3 years max. If a province sees a medium term issue in a position they have to recruit a project or else sign someone for 2/3 years maximum who will then have to be let go.

The provinces are trying to fill gaps in the medum term, if the player goes onto play for Ireland thats a happy coincidence.

Molester Stallone · 12-04-2014 11:54pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

FB 15 John Gallagher
RW 14 John Kirwan
OC 13 Joe Stanley
IC 12 Warwick Taylor
LW 11 Craig Green
FH 10 Grant Fox
SH 9 David Kirk (c)
N8 8 Wayne Shelford
BF 7 Michael Jones
OF 6 Alan Whetton
RL 5 Gary Whetton
LL 4 Murray Pierce
TP 3 John Drake
HK 2 Sean Fitzpatrick
LP 1 Steve McDowell
Coach:
New Zealand Brian Lochore

Um that would be zero. Michael Jones has Samoan heritage but was born in Auckland. You know, NZ's largest city?

Get yourself an education Molestor Stallone, and don't rely on sterotyped bigotry.

Don't rely on whining swiwi
I'm out tyvm

odd_job · 13-04-2014 3:09am

It's an interesting point and no I wouldn't be happy with the IRFU systematically hunting for players that could become IQ in the future

However 3 years is a long time in professional rugby and if the player hasn't been capped in that time (ie he isn't considered good enough for his home nation) then I think he deserves a chance with his new nation. This depends of course on whether there is no external influence on the player where by he is pressured not to play if called up for his home nation in the hope of becoming IQ.

marc96 · 13-04-2014 9:40am

My opinion if you not born in the country or at the very least started school in the country then you should not be able to play for the country.think its a joke that a team representing a country has players from abroad.look at the England cricket team a few years ago....mostly South African even their captain was South African.i believe if u aren't good at a certain sport u shouldn't be looking to get foreigners in to play for the national side.

Let the slating start!

neilmulvey · 13-04-2014 9:51am

marc96 wrote: »

My opinion if you not born in the country or at the very least started school in the country then you should not be able to play for the country.think its a joke that a team representing a country has players from abroad.look at the England cricket team a few years ago....mostly South African even their captain was South African.i believe if u aren't good at a certain sport u shouldn't be looking to get foreigners in to play for the national side.

Let the slating start!

the england cricket team thing is very different.

Strauss' family left SA when he was a child, went to aus for a few years and then then moved to England before he was 10.

Pietersen's mother is english, he is perfectly entitled to play for them

Matt Prior moved to england at 11, his father is english

Jonathon Trott's grandparents are english and he holds a british passport long before playing for england was on the agenda for him

Jade Dernbach's family moved to england when he was 12/13 [i think]

Its very different to the scenario of the IRFU [for example] going around the SH looking to recruit un-capped guys to play for Ireland in 3 years time, when they might in their late 20s.

marc96 · 13-04-2014 10:01am

Still my point is that u shouldn't be looking at foreign players,if they aren't good enough to play for their birth country it doesn't mean Ireland should try import them.maybe get ur grassroots in order and bring up ur own players.i really don't believe in foreign players playing for club teams either as you taking a local lads place.

Swiwi. · 13-04-2014 10:08am

marc96 wrote: »

Still my point is that u shouldn't be looking at foreign players,if they aren't good enough to play for their birth country it doesn't mean Ireland should try import them.maybe get ur grassroots in order and bring up ur own players.i really don't believe in foreign players playing for club teams either as you taking a local lads place.

Or if they are...

If Heenan and/or Aki play for Ireland, I'll wonder "what is wrong with NZ, lads?"

Whether there is any fact in the article, I don't know, but the NZ journalist writing about Aki wrote "The 24-year-old, who burst on to the All Blacks' radar last year, is understood to have signed a three-year deal with Pat Lam's Irish club Connacht. Aki has been identified as a project player and while eligible for Samoa, he hopes to eventually qualify for Ireland under residency rules."

As regular users of this forum know, I have nothing against Ireland, in fact they have my support, but why would a South Auckland lad of NZ Samoan heritage want to play for Ireland, a country with which he has no links?

If he's out of NZ, he can't play for the ABs, so why not declare for Samoa, and potentially play in RWC 2015?

Maybe I'm missing something here?

SaveOurLyric · 13-04-2014 10:09am

jacothelad wrote: »

You are asking the wrong question. It should be "Are we happy to see the Provinces bringing in SH players in order to help us compete with the vastly more wealthy clubs of England and France?" = which is what actually happens. The answer is yes. Why shouldn't we.

If the odd one qualifies to play for Ireland and is good enough to make the team then great, that's a bonus.

Is an opinion.

In my opinion, its not a bonus, its a negative side effect of lax laws, and unfair to naturally Irish players who drop down the order.
Unlike club rugby where assembling the best team you can from whereever is part of the game, international rugby has by implication that those playing for Ireland are Irish, those playing for France are French, etc.
Not mercenary recruits scavenged from elsewhere around the world who play for Ireland as a consolation prize for not being good enough for their natural country. It is betrayal of the foundation of inter-"national" rugby.

marc96 · 13-04-2014 10:17am

For example lots if saffers play for Zimbabwe as they tend to think they can walk into the international side,same with Ireland,they not good enough for their home nation so they jump ship hoping to play for a lesser team where they get the chance to play international tests!

neilmulvey · 13-04-2014 10:19am

marc96 wrote: »

Still my point is that u shouldn't be looking at foreign players,if they aren't good enough to play for their birth country it doesn't mean Ireland should try import them.maybe get ur grassroots in order and bring up ur own players.i really don't believe in foreign players playing for club teams either as you taking a local lads place.

I agree. I think it is not right that players trade nationality and I dont agree with the rules either but they are as they are.

hahashake · 13-04-2014 10:21am

Swiwi. wrote: »

Or if they are...

If Heenan and/or Aki play for Ireland, I'll wonder "what is wrong with NZ, lads?"

Whether there is any fact in the article, I don't know, but the NZ journalist writing about Aki wrote "The 24-year-old, who burst on to the All Blacks' radar last year, is understood to have signed a three-year deal with Pat Lam's Irish club Connacht. Aki has been identified as a project player and while eligible for Samoa, he hopes to eventually qualify for Ireland under residency rules."

As regular users of this forum know, I have nothing against Ireland, in fact they have my support, but why would a South Auckland lad of NZ Samoan heritage want to play for Ireland, a country with which he has no links?

If he's out of NZ, he can't play for the ABs, so why not declare for Samoa, and potentially play in RWC 2015?

Maybe I'm missing something here?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but under the terms of his contract he has to remain eligible for Ireland.

Swiwi. · 13-04-2014 10:22am

neilmulvey wrote: »

I agree. I think it is not right that players trade nationality and I dont agree with the rules either but they are as they are.

There are always exceptions, so I don't think it should be outlawed, but this "dial a 3 years and away you go" clause is lame.

Actually, there a lot of Kiwis playing for Australia, not least of which Quade Cooper, they are also poaching bigtime these days, mostly from the ITM cup.

Swiwi. · 13-04-2014 10:24am

hahashake wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but under the terms of his contract he has to remain eligible for Ireland.

Which is my point that the IRFU are colluding on this, and artificially forcing him to become "Irish". Come to Galway son, we'll pay you lots...but you can forget about representing Samoa.

hahashake · 13-04-2014 10:28am

Swiwi. wrote: »

Which is my point that the IRFU are colluding on this, and artificially forcing him to become "Irish". Come to Galway son, we'll pay you lots...but you can forget about representing Samoa.

Which is one of my issues with it. He should be running out for Samoa at the 2015 RWC and may well have under different circumstances.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 13-04-2014 10:31am

Poor swiwi !

neilmulvey · 13-04-2014 10:32am

Swiwi. wrote: »

There are always exceptions, so I don't think it should be outlawed, but this "dial a 3 years and away you go" clause is lame.

Actually, there a lot of Kiwis playing for Australia, not least of which Quade Cooper, they are also poaching bigtime these days, mostly from the ITM cup.

but Cooper's family moved to aus when he was 12-13. Its not like he was offered a large cheque at 22-23-24 to move and qualify in 3 years time.

Tox56 · 13-04-2014 10:33am

hahashake wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but under the terms of his contract he has to remain eligible for Ireland.

I would be stunned if this is true

Swiwi. · 13-04-2014 10:34am

neilmulvey wrote: »

but Cooper's family moved to aus when he was 12-13. Its not like he was offered a large cheque at 22-23-24 to move and qualify in 3 years time.

Bad example. Mike Harris & Jason Woodward would be better examples.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread III

Comments