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2018-2027 National Development Plan

12467…11

Comments

  • #152
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    And, in my opinion, in order of urgency

    1) Midleton - Youghal (Desperately needed)
    2) Dungarvan
    3) Waterford - Glenmore
    4) Wexford - Rosslare
    I was very surprised that there was no mention of Midleton - Youghal in the NDP. But then again, I would say that upgrading the N71 out to Bandon is just as important, if not more important, and that wasn't included either.


  • #153
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    I was very surprised that there was no mention of Midleton - Youghal in the NDP. But then again, I would say that upgrading the N71 out to Bandon is just as important, if not more important, and that wasn't included either.
    For about 20 years now Cork has been the unloved child in Ireland when it comes to road investment. Before 2000, Cork surprisingly got most of the then LUTS plan implemented (South Ring, South Link road, Airport Hill improvements, Ballinhassig-Halfway, East Cork Parkway, Glanmire bypass, Blarney DC). However, since then the attitude to improving roads in Cork is disappointing. Most of the below schemes were proposed before 2000, and many have no timescale for implementation.

    Since 2000, the improvements in Cork have been the M8 [Watergrasshill/Fermoy/Fermoy-Mitchelstown] which was Government policy and was built as part of the interurbans, and was also an EU TEN-T core route; the N25 improvements [Kinsale Road/Bandon Road/Sarsfield Road] which should have been done from day 1; the N22 Ballincollig bypass [a few km of much needed DC]. That's a very poor return. We have the following outstanding:

    N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange [to be complete 2022]
    M20 Cork-Limerick [design and planning to start 2018]
    N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney [to be complete 2022]
    N22 Macroom-Ovens [suspended]
    N25 Carrigtwohill-Midleton [to be restarted 2018; no timescale for implementation]
    N25 Midleton-Youghal [suspended]
    N28 Cork-Ringaskiddy [being held up by objectors; delivery tbc due to likely dragged out planning stage]
    N40 North Ring Road West [suspended]
    N40 North Ring Road East [likely to be progressed as part of the M20 scheme]
    N72 Mallow Relief Road [route selection]

    There is currently no scheme even suspended on the N71, however a HQDC/motorway scheme will be required from the M40 to Halfway and 2+2 from there on, probably as far as Clonakilty.

    One of the major issues for Cork is the sheer volume of national road within County Cork as you can see below:

    Route number|Length within Cork
    N8|50
    N20|59
    N22|58
    N25|41
    N27|7
    N28|11
    N40|15
    N71|136
    N72|91
    N73|34


    A total of 514km of national route between Cork City and County, the highest in the country (Galway were in 2nd place in 2015 with 452km, however this has since changed and remember that a significant amount of national road in Galway is there for political reasons and will not be upgraded, the N83 a case in point). If anything Cork could merit further national roads especially stretches of the R600, the R586, the R624

    Cork has a major problem in that Cork City, being a destination for national roads, is quite isolated in relation to the county borders. For example, the N9 and N25 out of Waterford were the job of Kilkenny County Council, the M7 out of Limerick was in Tipperary, the N4, N7 out of Dublin were Kildare's job.

    Cork is deserving of the lions share of road funding but won't get it because of the usual Irish political bull**** that goes on. The NDP is specifically geared towards building roads in the BMW region whilst the south west specifically drowns in congestion on roads carrying 3-10x the volume of roads being upgraded in the north west.


  • #154
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Would there be any chance in the next couple years we could see the N4 Dromod/Rooskey and N3 kells/Whitegate upgrades to Motorway status. It could be done easily enough as non motorway traffic have alternative routes on both of these routes.Anyway all the traffic on these roads are already doing motorway speeds


  • #155
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    DumbBrunette wrote: »
    I think there's also three schemes on the N60 between Castlebar and Claremorris totalling 9km that are quite advanced... any update on those Marno?
    The first of these at Lagnamuck has gone to tender today.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase.asp?PID=130581


  • #156
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    June 2018 update:

    N2 Ardee-Castleblayney: This project has now been approved to begin feasibility/route selection/design/statutory process
    N2 Clontibret-NI border: This project has now been approved to begin feasibility/route selection/design/statutory process
    N6 Galway City Ring Road: Final design published in early June. Submission to An Bord Pleanala due June 2018 however still due.
    N56 Dungloe-Glenties: Advance works tenders issued in June for last 2 sections around Glenties and south of Dungloe.
    N69 Listowel bypass: Ground investigation & archaeology tenders issued in June
    N72 Mallow Relief Road: Cork County Council have prepared tender documents for consultants for design & statutory process. To be issued after receiving approval from TII of project appraisal
    N86 Tralee-Dingle: Kerry County Council to issue tender for consultants for advance works/constructon/handover in July 2018 for a further 8km of this split across two schemes (Ballygarret-Dooneen South & Ballynasare-Annascaul)

    A quieter month than May, but a lot of projects are now fully occupied and only a small few are awaiting the next stage.


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  • #157
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    July 2018 update:

    Phase 7 - Completion
    N86 Camp-Ballygarret [July 2018 completion]

    Phase 6 - Construction
    M7 Naas/Newbridge bypass upgrade [2019 completion]
    N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange [early works starting; prelim works on ground Q418, full start Q119]
    M11 Gorey-Enniscorthy [mid 2019 completion]
    N25 New Ross PPP [Q1 2019 completion]
    N56 Mountcharles-Drumbeigh [Q2 2019 completion]
    N56 Kilkenny-Letterilly [2019 completion]
    N86 Camp-Ballygarret [July 2018 completion]
    N86 Ballynasare-Lispole [July 2018 completion]

    Phase 5 II - Tender
    N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin [2018 start]
    N5 Westport-Turlough [late 2019 start]
    N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney [2019 start]
    N52 Ardee bypass [Q4 2018 start]
    N59 Maam Cross-Bunnakill [2019 start]
    N59 Kilmeena [2018 start]

    Phase 5 - Advance works and land acquisition
    M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy [CPO approved]
    N56 Drumbeigh-Inver [in queue; phased implementation]
    N56 Letterilly-Kilrane [in queue; phased implementation]
    N56 Dungloe-Cloghbolie [in queue; phased implementation]
    N59 Moycullen bypass [ready to tender]
    N59 Bunnakill-Oughterard [in queue; phased implementation]
    N59 Derrada-Newport [in queue; phased implementation]
    N69 Listowel bypass [tender out for consultants; tender expected 2018]
    N86 Dingle-Lispole [in queue; phased implementation]
    N86 Ballynasare-Annascaul [tender expected late 2018]
    N86 Gortbreagoge-Doonore South [in queue; phased implementation]
    N86 Doonore South-Ballygarret [tender expected late 2018]
    N86 Camp-R560 [in queue; phased implementation]

    Phase 4 - Statutory process
    N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge [decision due July 2018]
    N6 Galway City Ring Road [submission to ABP due]

    Phase 3 - Design
    M21 Adare-Rathkeale-Foynes [submission to ABP Q3 2018]

    Phase 2 - Route selection
    N2 Slane bypass [route selection ongoing]
    N13/N56 Letterkenny Bypass + DC upgrade [route options published; preferred route published Q3 2018]
    N14 Letterkenny-Lifford [route options published; preferred route published Q3 2018]
    N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass [route options published; preferred route published Q3 2018]
    M20 Cork-Limerick [tender for design & planning at tender stage]
    N55 Athlone-Ballymahon**
    N72 Mallow Relief Road (design & planning consultants to be appointed by year end)

    Phase 1 - Feasibility study/project scope
    N2 Clontibret-NI Border [tender for Phase 1-4 out]
    N2 Ardee-Castleblayney [tender for Phase 1-4 out]

    Phase 0 - Pre-appraisal
    N4 Mullingar-Roosky
    N4 Carrick on Shannon-Dromod
    N17 Tobercurry-Collooney

    Awaiting activation [all have had no movement and remain suspended]
    N2 Ashbourne-Kilmoon Cross
    N3 Virginia bypass
    N3 Clonee-M50
    M4 Leixlip-Maynooth
    M11 M50-Kilmacanogue
    N11/N25 Oilgate-Rosslare Harbour
    N17 Knock-Tubbercurry
    N21 Abbeyfeale relief road
    N21 Newcastlewest bypass
    N22 Farranfore-Killarney
    N24 Waterford-Cahir
    N24 Cahir-Limerick Junction
    N25 Waterford-Glenmore
    N25 Carrigtwohill-Midleton
    N52 Tullamore-Kilbeggan
    M50 Dublin Port South Access Road


    ** not named in Capital Plan


    What's expected shortly

    N2 Slane bypass publication of preferred route
    N4 Mullingar to Longford, expecting tender to be published for consultants
    N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge decision was due 9th of July - still awaiting this
    N6 Galway City Ring Road is awaiting approval from DTTAS & DPER for ABP submission (originally due Q3 2016, 2017, January 2018, April 2018, May 2018 and June 2018)
    N52 Ardee bypass to go to full tender shortly


  • #158
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    July 2018 updates:

    N2 Slane bypass: Tender awarded for ground investigation in July. No sign of final route yet.
    N4 Mullingar-Longford: This has now moved to pre-appraisal stage now as per TII
    N4 Carrick on Shannon-Dromod: This has now moved to pre-appraisal stage now as per TII
    N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge: Planned decision date of 9th July missed by An Bord Pleanala, no further update since.
    N6 Galway City Ring Road: Planned ABP submission date of June has been missed, no further update.
    N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange: Tender has been awarded to Sisk
    N17 Tobercurry-Collooney This has moved to pre-appraisal stage now as per TII
    N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney: Pre qualification stage complete and invitations to tender to be issued in coming weeks
    M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy: This received full approval from An Bord Pleanala in July 2018 however the local NIMBYs indicate they wish to proceed with a judicial review.
    N56 Dungloe-Glenties: Ground investigation tenders issued in July for 2 remaining sections (Letterilly-Kilraine & Dungloe-Cloghbolie)


  • #159
    Reuben1210
    Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭Reuben1210


    marno21 wrote: »
    July 2018 updates:

    N2 Slane bypass: Tender awarded for ground investigation in July. No sign of final route yet.
    N4 Mullingar-Longford: This has now moved to pre-appraisal stage now as per TII
    N4 Carrick on Shannon-Dromod: This has now moved to pre-appraisal stage now as per TII
    N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge: Planned decision date of 9th July missed by An Bord Pleanala, no further update since.
    N6 Galway City Ring Road: Planned ABP submission date of June has been missed, no further update.
    N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange: Tender has been awarded to Sisk
    N17 Tobercurry-Collooney This has moved to pre-appraisal stage now as per TII
    N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney: Pre qualification stage complete and invitations to tender to be issued in coming weeks
    M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy: This received full approval from An Bord Pleanala in July 2018 however the local NIMBYs indicate they wish to proceed with a judicial review.
    N56 Dungloe-Glenties: Ground investigation tenders issued in July for 2 remaining sections (Letterilly-Kilraine & Dungloe-Cloghbolie)

    Thanks as always Marno!

    I have a couple of questions:

    1.) The two sections of the N4, are these planned to be dualler at least with possibility of redesignation to motorway?

    2.) What is pre-appraisal and pre-qualification stage in a project like this?


  • #160
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    No problem.

    1. I would expect the Carrick-Dromod section to be 2+2 and Mullingar-Roosky to be Type 1 DC on the Mullingar side tapering off to 2+2 at Longford. I would like to see it motorway from Mullingar-Longford but it's too early to confirm.

    2. Preappraisal, I'll give you a quote from TII:
    Michael Nolan wrote:
    we have granted some small amount of funding to local authorities to do a pre-appraisal on a number of schemes this year. We are doing a fitness test on those schemes to see how they rate against the Department's strategic investment framework priorities. We ask if they complete missing links on the network, address safety-critical issues and provide access to poorly-served regions, which would be in agreement with what the Deputy is saying. We also ask if they address integration and peripherality, issues of capacity, access to large-scale employment, and improving connections to key seaports and airports

    Prequalification is the first stage of the tendering process where organisations wishing to tender for a project are questioned to examine their suitability. If they pass this stage, they are then invited to tender for the project. Someone with more experience in procurement can give a better answer than this if it merits one.


  • #161
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    August 2018 update:

    Phase 7 - Completion
    N86 Camp-Ballygarret [open to traffic]
    N86 Ballynasare-Lispole [open to traffic]

    Phase 6 - Construction
    M7 Naas/Newbridge bypass widening [March 2019 completion]
    M7 J9-J11 junction works [2019 completion]
    N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange [early works starting; prelim works on ground Q418, full start Q119]
    M11 Gorey-Enniscorthy [mid 2019 completion]
    N25 New Ross PPP [Q1 2019 completion]
    N56 Mountcharles-Drumbeigh [Q2 2019 completion]
    N56 Kilkenny-Letterilly [2019 completion]
    N59 Kilmeena [tender awarded August, construction to start shortly]

    Phase 5 II - Tender
    N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin [2018 start]
    N5 Westport-Turlough [late 2019 start]
    N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney [2019 start; full tender process has begun]
    N52 Ardee bypass [Q4 2018 start]
    N59 Maam Cross-Bunnakill [2019 start]

    Phase 5 - Advance works and land acquisition
    M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy [CPO approved]
    N56 Drumbeigh-Inver [in queue; phased implementation]
    N56 Letterilly-Kilrane [in queue; phased implementation; archaelogical & topological investigation tendered]
    N56 Dungloe-Cloghbolie [in queue; phased implementation; archaelogical & topological investigation tendered]
    N59 Moycullen bypass [ready to tender; consultants to be appointed shortly]
    N59 Bunnakill-Oughterard [in queue; phased implementation]
    N59 Derrada-Newport [in queue; phased implementation]
    N69 Listowel bypass [tender out for consultants; tender expected 2018]
    N86 Dingle-Lispole [in queue; phased implementation]
    N86 Ballynasare-Annascaul [tender expected late 2018]
    N86 Gortbreagoge-Doonore South [in queue; phased implementation]
    N86 Doonore South-Ballygarret [tender expected late 2018]
    N86 Camp-R560 [in queue; phased implementation]

    Phase 4 - Statutory process
    N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge [decision due July 2018]
    N6 Galway City Ring Road [submission to ABP due]

    Phase 3 - Design
    M21 Adare-Rathkeale-Foynes [submission to ABP Q3 2018]

    Phase 2 - Route selection
    N2 Slane bypass [route selection ongoing]
    N13/N56 Letterkenny Bypass + DC upgrade [route options published; preferred route published Q3 2018]
    N14 Letterkenny-Lifford [route options published; preferred route published Q3 2018]
    N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass [route options published; preferred route published Q3 2018]
    M20 Cork-Limerick [tender for design & planning at tender stage]
    N55 Athlone-Ballymahon**
    N70 Milltown bypass [route options published]**
    N72 Mallow Relief Road (design & planning consultants to be appointed by year end)

    Phase 1 - Feasibility study/project scope
    N2 Clontibret-NI Border [tender for Phase 1-4 out]
    N2 Ardee-Castleblayney [tender for Phase 1-4 out]

    Phase 0 - Pre-appraisal
    N4 Mullingar-Roosky
    N4 Carrick on Shannon-Dromod
    N17 Tobercurry-Collooney

    Awaiting activation [all have had no movement and remain suspended]
    N2 Ashbourne-Kilmoon Cross
    N3 Virginia bypass
    N3 Clonee-M50
    M4 Leixlip-Maynooth
    M11 M50-Kilmacanogue
    N11/N25 Oilgate-Rosslare Harbour
    N17 Knock-Tubbercurry
    N21 Abbeyfeale relief road
    N21 Newcastlewest bypass
    N22 Farranfore-Killarney
    N24 Waterford-Cahir
    N24 Cahir-Limerick Junction
    N25 Waterford-Glenmore
    N25 Carrigtwohill-Midleton
    N52 Tullamore-Kilbeggan
    M50 Dublin Port South Access Road


    ** not named in Capital Plan


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  • #162
    tharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    Galway were in 2nd place in 2015 with 452km, however this has since changed and remember that a significant amount of national road in Galway is there for political reasons and will not be upgraded

    Same can be said for a significant amount of N roads in cork, or any part of the country.
    Your basic complaint appear to be that Cork got lots of road in the 80'snd 90's and nothing but the m8 in the 00 and 10's.
    I'm sure that lots of other areas of the country would be jealous of either.


  • #163
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Galway has an excessive amount of national road for no good reason.

    Galway has the N6, N17, N18, N63, N65, N67, N83 and N84
    Cork has the N8, N20, N22, N25 and N71 (and the N27/N28 which are short stubs to access airports/seaports).

    Galway has 4 roads to Mayo and 2 roads to Tuam.


  • #164
    D Trent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭D Trent


    marno21 wrote: »
    Galway has an excessive amount of national road for no good reason.

    Galway has the N6, N17, N18, N63, N65, N67, N83 and N84
    Cork has the N8, N20, N22, N25 and N71 (and the N27/N28 which are short stubs to access airports/seaports).

    Galway has 4 roads to Mayo and 2 roads to Tuam.
    Oh Jesus Christ get over it. Every opportunity you get you emphasise the fact M17/M18 is complete ahead of M20. It's done now man. In the past.


  • #165
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    D Trent wrote: »
    Oh Jesus Christ get over it. Every opportunity you get you emphasise the fact M17/M18 is complete ahead of M20. It's done now man. In the past.
    Here if you're going to post like that at least read my posts fully.

    I didn't mention the M17/M18 or the M20.

    All I said is that Galway has too many national roads, more than it needs, and some of which are only there because they were added to the network for political reasons after the network was originally defined.

    The N83 from Tuam to Galway should not be a national road. It just stretches TII's underfunded budget even further to cover roads they have to maintain for no good reason.


  • #166
    D Trent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭D Trent


    marno21 wrote: »
    Here if you're going to post like that at least read my posts fully.

    I didn't mention the M17/M18 or the M20.

    All I said is that Galway has too many national roads, more than it needs, and some of which are only there because they were added to the network for political reasons after the network was originally defined.

    The N83 from Tuam to Galway should not be a national road. It just stretches TII's underfunded budget even further to cover roads they have to maintain for no good reason.
    Galway has 4 roads to Mayo and 2 roads to Tuam

    What are the 4 roads and 2 roads respectively then !


  • #167
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    To Mayo: N17, N59, N83, N84

    To Tuam: N17 & N83

    I have put up another post here on the rationalisation of the national secondary network: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057885669


  • #168
    D Trent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭D Trent


    marno21 wrote: »
    To Mayo: N17, N59, N83, N84

    To Tuam: N17 & N83

    I have put up another post here on the rationalisation of the national secondary network: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057885669
    ??

    N17 is no longer in existence as far as Tuam- thanks to none other than M17


  • #169
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    D Trent wrote: »
    ??

    N17 is no longer in existence as far as Tuam- thanks to none other than M17
    Yes, it's the N83 now. The signed route to Galway is via the M17. There is also the N83 for no apparent reason.


  • #170
    D Trent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭D Trent


    marno21 wrote: »
    Yes, it's the N83 now. The signed route to Galway is via the M17. There is also the N83 for no apparent reason.
    And now we're going round in circles
    Galway has 4 roads to Mayo and 2 roads to Tuam.


    D Trent wrote: »
    What are the 4 roads and 2 roads respectively then !

    Listen i'm of the opinion the N83 should only exist between Tuam BP and Dunmore or B haunis, I'm not defending that. All I'm doing is remarking on your disdain of the M17/M18 on the forum on a fair few occasions.


  • #171
    tharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    To Mayo: N17, N59, N83, N84 ,

    Using that logic Cork has 4 roads to Kerry, N71, N22 N20/N72
    2 roads to Tipp, M8 and N73
    2 to Waterford N72 and N25,
    and only one to Limerick N20 which should be upgraded ASAP "because it connects to Galway and then you would also then have 4 roads to Mayo".
    Should all Mayo traffic be routed through Clifden? If so maybe all Cork to Kerry traffic should go through Skibbereen


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  • #172
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    This is my last post on this issue, I've said everything I have to say and this really is a pointless debate.
    D Trent wrote: »
    And now we're going round in circles

    Listen i'm of the opinion the N83 should only exist between Tuam BP and Dunmore or B haunis, I'm not defending that. All I'm doing is remarking on your disdain of the M17/M18 on the forum on a fair few occasions.

    Can you show me some of that disdain? I really don't know where this has come from.

    I have repeatedly said that the concept of the M17/M18 was a good one, but the execution of it really could be done better. It's by far the quietest motorway in Ireland and for good reason.
    tharlear wrote: »
    Using that logic Cork has 4 roads to Kerry, N71, N22 N20/N72
    2 roads to Tipp, M8 and N73
    2 to Waterford N72 and N25,
    and only one to Limerick N20 which should be upgraded ASAP "because it connects to Galway and then you would also then have 4 roads to Mayo".
    Should all Mayo traffic be routed through Clifden? If so maybe all Cork to Kerry traffic should go through Skibbereen

    Cork has 3 routes to Kerry.

    I should have mentioned earlier that there is calls now for the R332 to be made a national secondary, which would be 5 roads to Mayo. All Mayo-Galway traffic should be routed via the N59 and an upgraded N17. There is a case for the N84 but certainly no case for the N83.

    Comparing Mayo/Galway and Cork/Kerry is also stupid as Cork/Kerry are bigger populations, more traffic. This should not be an x vs y argument for any reason.


  • #173
    Kevwoody
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Kevwoody


    marno21 wrote:
    Can you show me some of that disdain? I really don't know where this has come from.


    Ah come on Marno, you have a pop at the M17/18 all the time, and the amount of spending the West and Northwest gets, it's no secret that you feel Cork should be getting the majority of the roads budget.

    Anyway I'm not starting an argument as you are by far the most knowledgeable poster in this forum, but come on!


  • #174
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Kevwoody wrote: »
    Ah come on Marno, you have a pop at the M17/18 all the time, and the amount of spending the West and Northwest gets, it's no secret that you feel Cork should be getting the majority of the roads budget.

    Anyway I'm not starting an argument as you are by far the most knowledgeable poster in this forum, but come on!

    I feel like a lot of what I've said about the M17/M18 is misinterpreted.

    I fully support the idea of upgrading the N17 and N18. However, the main purpose of the two roads since they were designated as such back in the 1970s, was to connect into Galway (the N18 originally stopped in Oranmore and continued to Claregalway as the N64 but this was later amended).

    I put up this diagram as to what I believe should have happened with the M17/M18 (Galway bypass routing is indicative only - and wrong) :

    451511.png

    It would've provided the most benefit for everyone. Direct N17 and N18 links into Galway, and a link between the two for those bypassing Galway. The M17/M18 as it was built provides massive benefits for N/S traffic but little to no benefit for anyone going to Galway. Claregalway is still a mess, N84 traffic is still heavy.

    Regarding the northwest, I fully support road investment everywhere in this country, but I have said that there is a disproportionate amount of money in the Capital Plan for the northwest, and no nationwide consistency in route development (N17 getting 2+2 at 6.4k AADT and N21 getting relief roads at 13k AADT does not make sense).

    I don't feel that Cork should be getting the majority of the roads budget - it should be getting an equitable amount. This shouldn't be a Cork vs the northwest debate, there is no county in Ireland that doesn't merit investment in roads, but the investment should be entirely based on need and requirement, not on geography or region vs region nonsense.

    The first 5 projects out of this plan to be reactivated are the 2x N2 schemes in Monaghan, the 2x N4 schemes in Leitrim/Longford/Westmeath and the first 15km of the N17 out of Sligo. All very meritorious upgrades, but the next 5 need to provide balance.


  • #175
    Shedite27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,428 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    marno21 wrote: »
    I don't feel that Cork should be getting the majority of the roads budget - it should be getting an equitable amount. This shouldn't be a Cork vs the northwest debate, there is no county in Ireland that doesn't merit investment in roads, but the investment should be entirely based on need and requirement, not on geography or region vs region nonsense.

    The first 5 projects out of this plan to be reactivated are the 2x N2 schemes in Monaghan, the 2x N4 schemes in Leitrim/Longford/Westmeath and the first 15km of the N17 out of Sligo. All very meritorious upgrades, but the next 5 need to provide balance.
    But are the N2 and N4 upgrades not just uprading links to Dublin, whereas the Cork schemes are creating the links for a second city to take the strain off Dublin housing/congestion.

    If you've a motorway from Cork to Limerick, Killarney and Waterford then you end up with 4 main roads into a city, providing plenty of opportnities for doable commutes. Cork to Limerick is only 90k. That's a 45 minute commute. Try commuting 45 mintues into Dublin and see how far you'd get.


  • #176
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    "The next 5 [upgrades] need to provide balance".

    That would be the M20, M40 north ring (eastern component), M28, Dunkettle, and N22. "Balance" achieved.

    Now TII can continue to invest in roads connecting Donegal, Sligo, and Mayo to the rest of the country, unlike Cork which already sits at the centre of a well-developed regional transport system.


  • #177
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I think I'll end this whole debate fairly simply.. the whole country needs more investment in roads, significantly more than it has been getting. This includes the north west, Cork and everywhere else.

    The last 8 years have left us with a significant backlog of needs. Hopefully we get a bit of a move on towards the end of the year.


  • #178
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    "The next 5 [upgrades] need to provide balance".

    That would be the M20, M40 north ring (eastern component), M28, Dunkettle, and N22. "Balance" achieved.

    Now TII can continue to invest in roads connecting Donegal, Sligo, and Mayo to the rest of the country, unlike Cork which already sits at the centre of a well-developed regional transport system.

    Allow me to be glib for a minute...
    • When they finished the M20 in 2013 it was great.
    • I love the M40 north ring chosen route.
    • If only somebody mentioned during the original Dunkettle interchange that the design was substandard, the money would have been made available.
    • Cork's new event centre is looking fab at the moment too.

    I'd say people in Cork would welcome any infrastructure if it happened, rather than announcements, sod turnings and zero delivery.


  • #179
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    Allow me to be glib for a minute...
    • When they finished the M20 in 2013 it was great.
    • I love the M40 north ring chosen route.
    • If only somebody mentioned during the original Dunkettle interchange that the design was substandard, the money would have been made available.
    • Cork's new event centre is looking fab at the moment too.

    I'd say people in Cork would welcome any infrastructure if it happened, rather than announcements, sod turnings and zero delivery.

    So would the people of Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Mayo, Monaghan, Cavan, and, just about every one of the 19 remaining counties. Glibness aside, I don't really see your point. Is it that the interval between projects being announced and projects being fully delivered is too long? If so, I fully agree with you.

    I don't really see what the Events Centre has to do with this. It's sitting and waiting for planning permission for the revised design.


  • #180
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    So would the people of Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Mayo, Monaghan, Cavan, and, just about every one of the 19 remaining counties. Glibness aside, I don't really see your point. Is it that the interval between projects being announced and projects being fully delivered is too long? If so, I fully agree with you.

    I don't really see what the Events Centre has to do with this. It's sitting and waiting for planning permission for the revised design.

    Sorry I could have been much clearer:some of those infrastructure projects which were announced with great PR and fanfare, by successive governments. The political capital to be gleaned is somewhat diminished when they're announced the second or third time.

    You're talking about them as a "balance" to the expenditure going to the North / Northwest, but as far as I remember infrastructural expenditure in the North / Northwest doesn't yield great ROI. It certainly wasn't a key aspect of the National Spatial Strategy.

    Yields great votes, though, in fairness.


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  • #181
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    Sorry I could have been much clearer:some of those infrastructure projects which were announced with great PR and fanfare, by successive governments. The political capital to be gleaned is somewhat diminished when they're announced the second or third time.

    You're talking about them as a "balance" to the expenditure going to the North / Northwest, but as far as I remember infrastructural expenditure in the North / Northwest doesn't yield great ROI. It certainly wasn't a key aspect of the National Spatial Strategy.

    Yields great votes, though, in fairness.
    Maybe we're both misunderstanding each other. My comments about "balance" were in response to another poster, who believes that Cork has been uniquely hard done by out of all of Ireland, and seems to say that roads investment outside of Cork should be matched euro for euro with investment inside Cork, for reasons of "balance". I disagree with this poster. My post above on "balance" was a rather glib response to what I viewed as his line of argument.

    Regarding your objections about ROI on roads in Donegal, I don't have the figures in front of me. I would argue that even if roads in this region had a lower ROI than roads in, say, Kildare, it is in the interests of Ireland to enhance connectivity in that region. The northwest is almost cut off from the capital, the engine of our economy, and very legitimately complain that they are the only part of the country that has no high-quality road most of the way to Dublin.

    As for your point about some road projects which were promised and then cancelled when the economy suddenly and unexpectedly collapsed and we plunged into one of the worst financial crises in the history of our nation, I have to say that I really find it hard to view that as some sort of political stunt. Especially after the incredible delivery of roads across the nation throughout the 2000s.


  • #182
    sondagefaux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    D Trent wrote: »
    marno21 wrote: »
    To Mayo: N17, N59, N83, N84

    To Tuam: N17 & N83

    I have put up another post here on the rationalisation of the national secondary network: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057885669
    ??

    N17 is no longer in existence as far as Tuam- thanks to none other than M17

    Technically the M17 is just the public name for that part of National Primary Route 17 which is under motorway regulations. In other words, the N17 still exists between Galway and Tuam.

    In any case, Tuam is in Co. Galway and so the N17 does go from Galway into Mayo, as there is no motorway from Tuam onwards


  • #183
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    Maybe we're both misunderstanding each other. My comments about "balance" were in response to another poster, who believes that Cork has been uniquely hard done by out of all of Ireland, and seems to say that roads investment outside of Cork should be matched euro for euro with investment inside Cork, for reasons of "balance". I disagree with this poster. My post above on "balance" was a rather glib response to what I viewed as his line of argument.

    Regarding your objections about ROI on roads in Donegal, I don't have the figures in front of me. I would argue that even if roads in this region had a lower ROI than roads in, say, Kildare, it is in the interests of Ireland to enhance connectivity in that region. The northwest is almost cut off from the capital, the engine of our economy, and very legitimately complain that they are the only part of the country that has no high-quality road most of the way to Dublin.

    As for your point about some road projects which were promised and then cancelled when the economy suddenly and unexpectedly collapsed and we plunged into one of the worst financial crises in the history of our nation, I have to say that I really find it hard to view that as some sort of political stunt. Especially after the incredible delivery of roads across the nation throughout the 2000s.

    The argument for capital expenditure in the Northwest is that they're segregated from Dublin. This is valid. But it's rarely mentioned that there are people in Cork who are more than two hours from their closest city, too. This doesn't justify infrastructural spend though: people in Allihes don't need HQDC to Cork.

    Look, I'm acutely aware that I'm derailing the thread with this line of thinking here, so I'll stop.

    But what's prompting this train of thought is the use of the word "balance" (and not just by you, let's be fair). Infrastructural spend in this country is still seriously affected by political input rather than by value-for-money and adherence to development plans/strategies.


  • #184
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    The argument for capital expenditure in the Northwest is that they're segregated from Dublin. This is valid. But it's rarely mentioned that there are people in Cork who are more than two hours from their closest city, too. This doesn't justify infrastructural spend though: people in Allihes don't need HQDC to Cork.

    Look, I'm acutely aware that I'm derailing the thread with this line of thinking here, so I'll stop.

    But what's prompting this train of thought is the use of the word "balance" (and not just by you, let's be fair). Infrastructural spend in this country is still seriously affected by political input rather than by value-for-money and adherence to development plans/strategies.
    Exactly. Since 2011 the NRA continually reiterated that the M20 was the most important scheme in the country. It still took 6 years for it to become active as a scheme though.

    There needs to be a national roads development policy of what needs to be done (from a high level - list out all improvements needed and update it every 5/6 years), then pick the most urgent schemes from this policy and develop them.

    We now have a legacy of a shortage of ready to go road schemes between 2020 and 2022 or so due to the fact that between 2011 and 2017 only politically driven road schemes were given any funding, and as a result, all that will be built until then is a small scattered bundle of schemes, whilst important schemes lag far behind in the overall process.


  • #185
    Kevwoody
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Kevwoody


    marno21 wrote:
    We now have a legacy of a shortage of ready to go road schemes between 2020 and 2022 or so due to the fact that between 2011 and 2017 only politically driven road schemes were given any funding, and as a result, all that will be built until then is a small scattered bundle of schemes, whilst important schemes lag far behind in the overall process.


    Is there any mechanism to fast track a project? I know these things take time but 2 or more years to go through route selection etc is a joke.


  • #186
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Kevwoody wrote: »
    Is there any mechanism to fast track a project? I know these things take time but 2 or more years to go through route selection etc is a joke.

    Adequately funded projects handled by adequately resourced RDOs is the solution

    The M21 has taken 3.5 years from route options to ABP application. The Slane bypass has taken a year for route selection. This isn't sustainable or there will be no projects ready for construction when the N4/N5/N22 projects are complete in 2021/2022


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  • #187
    Donegal Storm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donegal Storm


    Aside from the obvious infrastructural issues surely that's going to have a big knock on effect with construction companies as well. The likes of BAM, Roadbridge, Sisk etc aren't going to be too happy at tens of millions of Euro with of machinery sitting idle and rusting away once the current stream of projects are finished, same with engineers, project managers etc specialising in these schemes. You'd then run into problems of a lack of companies with sufficient scale and expertise once things eventually do start kicking off again, similar to whats happened with housing in the past few years


  • #188
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Donegal Storm wrote: »
    Aside from the obvious infrastructural issues surely that's going to have a big knock on effect with construction companies as well. The likes of BAM, Roadbridge, Sisk etc aren't going to be too happy at tens of millions of Euro with of machinery sitting idle and rusting away once the current stream of projects are finished, same with engineers, project managers etc specialising in these schemes. You'd then run into problems of a lack of companies with sufficient scale and expertise once things eventually do start kicking off again, similar to whats happened with housing in the past few years

    I dont think there is a problem there bam are flat out building in the south east and dublin and cant get men or machines and sisk are the same they are even now building houses with there new division Sisk Living. A lot lads just transfer from heavy civils to ground works for buildings etc . The plant is not an issue either as during the down turn nearly everything was shipped abroad and sold. So there is actually not that much spare capacity in second hand machines but in saying that HP is very handy to come by and new machines are easily shipped in when needed


  • #189
    Kevwoody
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Kevwoody


    Donegal Storm wrote:
    Aside from the obvious infrastructural issues surely that's going to have a big knock on effect with construction companies as well. The likes of BAM, Roadbridge, Sisk etc aren't going to be too happy at tens of millions of Euro with of machinery sitting idle and rusting away once the current stream of projects are finished, same with engineers, project managers etc specialising in these schemes. You'd then run into problems of a lack of companies with sufficient scale and expertise once things eventually do start kicking off again, similar to whats happened with housing in the past few years


    Fortunately until now, the likes of BAM etc are involved in large infrastructure projects in the UK, and can move personnel and machinery over and back quite easily. It's the UK projects that are keeping them afloat, however with Brexit on the horizon, who knows what will happen.


  • #190
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    We have 4 major projects with contractors appointed at the minute:

    N25 New Ross PPP (BAM/Dragados PPP)
    M11 Gorey/Enniscorthy PPP (BAM/Dragados PPP)
    M7 Naas/Newbridge bypass (SIAC/Colas JV)
    N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange (Sisk)

    Then 3 projects at tender:

    N4 Collooney/Castlebaldwin (award Sep/Oct 2018)
    N5 Westport-Turlough (award Q2 2019)
    N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney (award Q2 2019)

    It's after that is where the issues arise (and remember - 2019 is the start of increased capital funding, so more scope for more projects):

    Projects with planning: M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy, remainders of N56, N59, N86 low volume national seconadary projects (these total to about €100m in dispersed minor schemes). Also the Moycullen and Listowel bypasses at about €20m each.

    Then, there's the N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge, with lies with ABP. After that, the M21 and N6 Galway schemes are to go to ABP in Q3/4 (whenever the Government get around to approving them). Beyond that, you have the 3 Donegal schemes (Letterkenny-Lifford, Letterkenny relief road, Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass), the M20 and the Slane bypass at route selection.

    Things are looking grim. DTTAS need to allocated a lot of money next year towards really driving on some of those future projects, especially the 5 that have been reactivated this year (N2, N2, N4, N4 and N17). Otherwise there will be nothing to build soon.

    It sickens me every time I drive the N20 that for the sake of €15m between 2015 and 2018 we could now have the M20 ready to go to An Bord Pleanala. 15 ****ing million. In that time, the economic cost of road deaths along the N20 has outweighed the cost of spending the money on Phases 1-4. I think there was 6 deaths on the N20 in 2016 alone.


  • #191
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I hope they put a upgrade of the Cavan bypass to the border in this plan. I was on it the other day it’s lethal with overtaking


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  • #192
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    marno21 wrote: »
    It sickens me every time I drive the N20 that for the sake of €15m between 2015 and 2018 we could now have the M20 ready to go to An Bord Pleanala. 15 ****ing million. In that time, the economic cost of road deaths along the N20 has outweighed the cost of spending the money on Phases 1-4. I think there was 6 deaths on the N20 in 2016 alone.


    Wasn't there more to it than that though? Once that €15mil had been spent and the thing was through planning that the CPOs had to be activated, which were far more than that and the government couldn't afford it? That was the reason I heard. Couldn't afford the CPOs.


  • #193
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Everything feels very static at the moment.


  • #194
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I hope they put a upgrade of the Cavan bypass to the border in this plan. I was on it the other day it’s lethal with overtaking

    There is no plans for any such scheme. The Belturbet bypass is only 5 years old so I don't expect that to be touched for some time.

    Virginia bypass is in the plan, perhaps as part of the larger Kells-Cavan scheme.
    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Wasn't there more to it than that though? Once that €15mil had been spent and the thing was through planning that the CPOs had to be activated, which were far more than that and the government couldn't afford it? That was the reason I heard. Couldn't afford the CPOs.

    That was back in 2011. The M20 started from scratch in November 2016. Since then €3m has been spent, and there is only a requirement to spend a further €12m until it goes to An Bord Pleanala, which will be 2020 at the very earliest.

    Had the scheme been reactivated, we'd be going to An Bord Pleanala at this time, and the CPO would need to be done in 2019. This would have necessitated a net spend of €15m between its reactivation and ABP submission, so €15m between 2015 and 2018. The idea that that was unaffordable, as was peddled by the Government at the time, is simply bollix
    .
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Everything feels very static at the moment.

    It is, but it is the summer months when things don't get done.

    There will be a lot of movement between now and the end of 2018 as there is a large queue of stuff to be done.


  • #195
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    They have left half a dumbell interchange at M3 end at Kells so the road can continue on. This means it would be easier for it to simply continue as motorway.

    M3 to Virginia at least?


  • #196
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    See here...

    459418.jpg


  • #197
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    See here...

    459418.jpg
    2+2 likely north of Kells.


  • #198
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    But they have designed the end so the motorway can continue...


    No reason not to have the motorway go short of Virginia.


  • #199
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    No reason not to have the motorway go short of Virginia.

    Other than the traffic levels not existing and not likely to exist at any time in the future.


  • #200
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    L1011 wrote: »
    Other than the traffic levels not existing and not likely to exist at any time in the future.
    Posts on this board in 10 years' time:

    "How could they not have extended the M3 to Enniskillen? It's not like they didn't have the money!" 
    "Why is Ireland the only country in Europe that can't plan roads properly?" 
    "The southwest gets all the money, they haven't built a road up here in years!" 
    "Why shouldn't we build a motorway from Cork to Bantry?" 
    Etc...


  • #201
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    marno21 wrote: »
    There is no plans for any such scheme. The Belturbet bypass is only 5 years old so I don't expect that to be touched for some time.

    Virginia bypass is in the plan, perhaps as part of the larger Kells-Cavan scheme.


    I know at the moment there is nothing planned but hopefully something could happen. It could easily be retrofitted to 2+2 for very little money. You would not believe how bad it is with over taking . It’s only luck there is not much head on crashes.

    Someone mentioned about M3 to enniskillin that would be something else compared to what’s the other side of the border as the current road looks like it was last touched up 20 years ago


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