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The future of the national secondary network

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  • 25-06-2018 11:04pm
    #1
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,354 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    There was a thread on this subject around the time the motorway network was completed but given the lack of any change since and the resumption of road building with the NDP it may be time for another discussion on the subject

    The national secondary road network has remained pretty much as is since the turn of the millennium, meanwhile the national primary network has had a complete overhaul with significant changes on the M1/N2/N3/N4/N5/N6/N7/N8/N9/N10/N11/N17/N18. The national secondary network has had comparatively less investment, and given the large amount of investment required in the national secondary network to bring it up to scratch, it may be time for a reorganisation of the network to reflect needs and the new road network we have.

    As mentioned in the last thread, the national secondary network is a very heterogenous network with individual roads serving a wide variety of purposes:

    1. Tourist routes: these routes are found in the west of Ireland and are lengthy routes, often coastal or peninsular routes, serving a string of tourist destinations. They are characterised by poor alignment, narrow and twisty sections, and seasonal traffic volumes. Traffic volumes also vary wildly on these roads, especially on approaches to cities and large towns. Roads: N56, N59, N67, N69, N70, N71, N85, N86
    2. Interregional arteries: These routes provide connectivity between regions and in most cases intersect many national primary routes. In some cases, end to end journeys on these roads are faster using the motorway network. Roads: N51, N52, N55, N60, N61, N62, N63, N72, N80
    3. Short connections between national primary routes and link towns to primary routes: These routes connect national primary routes. Roads: N58 (N5-N26), N60 (Castlebar-N17), N73 (M8-Mallow), N74 (M8-N24), N75 (Thurles-M8)
    4. Intertown routes too important for R designation but not important enough for national primary: The inter-regional arteries consist of several of these type of routes chained together, e.g. N72 Mallow-Fermoy, Fermoy-Dungarvan, Mallow-Killarney etc. These routes provide connectivity between big towns and carry reasonably large volumes of traffic. Roads: N53, N54, N58, N65, N68, N69, N70 (Killorglin-Tralee), N76, N77, N78
    5. Roads designated as so for political/unexplained reasons: The original national secondary network included the routes N51-N80, from which the N57 (N26), N64 (N18) and N79 (N30) were bumped up to national primary. The N81-N87 routes were added after original designation. Some of these routes parallel primary/improved routes. Roads: N81, N83, N84, N87. Whilst some of these may be contentious, the route of the N81 from end to end is now better served by the M9. The N83 shadows a much improved M17 and N17 (the northern end of the N83 is the quietest section of national road in Ireland). The N84 is a 2nd route from Castlebar-Galway, and the central section is paralleled by an R road that carries more traffic than the N84 itself. The N87 was designated as such after the destruction of Aghalane bridge in the 1970s and the reopening of same has rendered the N87 redundant.

    The N66 was detrunked in 2017 as part of the M17/M18 scheme. After the motorway network was opened, several minor changes happened:

    • The N52 from Dundalk to Ardee was redesignated R215 and traffic sent via the M1/N33
    • The N71 from the N40 to the N22 at Victoria Cross was redesignated R641
    • The N77 was extended along the route of the old N8 from Durrow to Portlaoise as the new M8 was built much further west
    • The N78 from Kilcullen to Athy was redesignated R418 and the N78 sent via new link road to the M9.
    • The N80 from Tullamore to Moate (M6) was redesginated R420 and traffic sent via the N52/M6
    • The N81 from the M50 to Dublin City Centre was detrunked along with all other national roads inside the M50 bar the N11 & N31

    What are people's opinions on the future of the network? IMO it needs to be overhauled in full, and with a large swathe of new roads planned to open over the next few years as part of the National Development Plan this may be a good exercise to carry out in tandem. The reduced dependency on paper based maps for online ones in these times is another benefit due to the ease of updating.

    I will put up another post on what I think needs changing but I'll open it to the floor first.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭Kevwoody


    Excellent post Marno with some very good points.

    I think personally the first step would be for TII to take responsibility for all Regional roads, rather than letting each local authority look after their own.
    Local authorities seem to have zero interest in maintenance or upgrading.

    TII have an ongoing delineation and signage program which has massively improved safety on National roads, bringing a uniformity of signage and lining across the whole country. Travel any regional road and all you will see are signs that are either buried in hedges or filthy with dirt.


    Value for money is another one. Kerry County Council carried out a short online realignment of around 1.5km at Molly Gavigans on the N71. They used their own team of men with a heap of machinery hired in from a well known plant hire firm in Kilgarvan. Around the same time construction also started on the M17/18. Guess which project was completed first? Gort to Tuam! Kerry County Council still had employees at Molly Gavigans 2 months ago.

    I agree some Regional roads need to be reclassified as National. Im not too sure the same could be said about downgrading National routes, I think there would be strong objections locally. In the last few months alone I've heard of delegations from councils pushing for national status for regional roads in Donegal and Cork.

    So in summary, an overhaul is certainly required, not just reclassifications, but also in how funding is distributed.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,354 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Kevwoody wrote: »
    Excellent post Marno with some very good points.

    I think personally the first step would be for TII to take responsibility for all Regional roads, rather than letting each local authority look after their own.
    Local authorities seem to have zero interest in maintenance or upgrading.

    TII have an ongoing delineation and signage program which has massively improved safety on National roads, bringing a uniformity of signage and lining across the whole country. Travel any regional road and all you will see are signs that are either buried in hedges or filthy with dirt.

    Agree with this, national secondary routes have improved quite a lot over the last decade, however most of them are still rubbish in alignment terms - I can see a lot of realignment work being done over the next 3-5 years as there is an increase in roads funding coming and no big ticket schemes to take it.
    Value for money is another one. Kerry County Council carried out a short online realignment of around 1.5km at Molly Gavigans on the N71. They used their own team of men with a heap of machinery hired in from a well known plant hire firm in Kilgarvan. Around the same time construction also started on the M17/18. Guess which project was completed first? Gort to Tuam! Kerry County Council still had employees at Molly Gavigans 2 months ago.

    What are they still doing? I remember first seeing this job being underway nearly 3 years ago. It's quite a small scheme too as it only involves widening to one lane in either direction! It would have been more worthwile if they removed the bridge on the Kenmare side as part of the scheme.
    Kevwoody wrote: »
    I agree some Regional roads need to be reclassified as National. Im not too sure the same could be said about downgrading National routes, I think there would be strong objections locally. In the last few months alone I've heard of delegations from councils pushing for national status for regional roads in Donegal and Cork.

    So in summary, an overhaul is certainly required, not just reclassifications, but also in how funding is distributed.

    I wouldn't do too much detrunking of national roads, but there are some that need to go. The N83 from Tuam-Galway and from Ballyhaunis-Knock Airport, the N87 in its entirety are two definities imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,917 ✭✭✭Grab All Association


    N62 is a fine road between Roscrea and Horse and Jockey. Isn’t so great in Offaly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭D Trent


    What is the original idea behind N87? Swanlinbar isn't the end destination


  • Registered Users Posts: 967 ✭✭✭medoc


    N62 is a fine road between Roscrea and Horse and Jockey. Isn’t so great in Offaly.


    Some long poor sections in Tipp but not too hard to improve. The problem with the Offaly section like most of the regional roads in the county are the peat foundations. More difficult and expensive to counteract.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    D Trent wrote: »
    What is the original idea behind N87? Swanlinbar isn't the end destination

    Belturbet to Enniskillen according to Wikipedia.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭May Contain Small Parts


    D Trent wrote: »
    What is the original idea behind N87? Swanlinbar isn't the end destination

    As OP said, the bridge where N3 crosses the border was bombed in the 70's, meaning that Belturbert>Ballyconnell>Swanlinbar>Enniskillen was the alternative route for a few years.

    As it stands the N87 is indistinguishable from a R road. There's no real need to upgrade it or for it to be a national route unless you were to continue it on to meet the N16 (which would be crazy). It does see quite a bit of HGV traffic between Belturbet and Ballyconnell though, where Quinn cement etc. are, which might be part of the reason it's still an N road?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,354 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Some ideas I have:

    N53: Create a new link from the N53 to the upgraded N2 when it's dualled in the next decade south of Carrickmacross.
    N70: Extend the N70 along the R569 to an upgraded junction with the N22 at Loo Bridge. The R569 is a busy route, the main route from Killarney to Kenmare (the N71 is a mountain pass) and a main route for a large swathe of the south west
    N71: New M71 motorway link from future M40 at Curraheen to circa Halfway (discussed elsewhere)
    N72: Reroute along the R666 combined with northern relief road of Fermoy, shorter route and bypasses horrific hairpin near Tallow.
    N74: N24 dualling from Tipperary to Cahir should move further north and connect to M8 between Cashel and Cahir. Detrunk N74 in its entirety and send traffic via upgraded N24. N74 is a shambles anyway
    N78: Detrunk in its entirety. It's just a M9 shadow now.
    N81: South of Baltinglass traffic is better served using the M9. Detrunking/rerouting a possibility here.
    N83: Detrunk Tuam-Galway and Ballyhaunis-N17 at the very least. Tuam-Ballyhaunis may be useful but the rest of it is a joke.
    N87: Detrunk in its entirity. Simply paralleling the N3.

    The situation regarding the N16, N53, N54 and N87 may change depending if the East/West Dundalk-Sligo road is progressed.

    R roads to upgrade (potentially)
    R586: Link from future upgraded N71 at Bandon to Bantry. Busy route with industry located along the route.
    R624: Exceptionally busy regional route (albeit short). Plans for dual carriageway along part of the route
    R600: Gateway to the Wild Atlantic Way and busy route to Kinsale.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,546 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Marno, as you say reroute the current N72 along the R666.

    In addition, create a new secondary route along the current R628 which carries much more traffic than the current N72.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭D Trent


    http://connachttribune.ie/step-forward-for-plans-to-upgrade-n84-headford-road/

    "Step forward for plans to upgrade N84 Headford Road"


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭May Contain Small Parts


    marno21 wrote: »
    The situation regarding the N16, N53, N54 and N87 may change depending if the East/West Dundalk-Sligo road is progressed.
    .

    Is this something that's getting talked about? I'm a little surprised.

    The N53 and N54 have merit on their own so fair enough, but how would the rest work?

    To tie in the N87 and N16 (without going north of the border) would involve going through very, very rough terrain and would be well outside the justifiable price-range.

    To go north would be outside the control of the government, but also hard to justify as there would be little, if any, improvement on the existing N16>A4>A509*>N3 route (fastest route between cavan and sligo currently)

    To go south - say going from cavan to Carrick-on-shannon - would still go over rough-ish terrain (lots of drumlins) and still wouldn't be much different to going via the N55 and N4 ( which is already the fastest route Carrick>Cavan and both roads are being upgraded)

    *the A509 could certainly do with improvement, but well...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,971 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    My website has a map on this.

    The map includes more than just reclassifications so I'll list them here:

    N74: Greatly expanded to provide Kilkenny-Tipperary-Abbeyfeale-Listowel which connects the M9, M8, N21 and N69.
    N70: Kenmare-Clonkeen (as suggested elsewhere).
    N?: Bantry-Dunmanway-Macroom, to make it easier to get to the Ring of Cork.
    N88: Durrow-Roscrea. This gets you between Kilkenny and Athlone. 88 is an unused number.
    N75 Thurles-Nenagh: Provides for M8-Galway journeys.
    N81 Blessington-M9(Kilcullen): Enables Dublin-bound M7, M8 and M9 traffic to use the Tallaght Bypass to access the M50 instead of Naas Road. Would probably need big improvements to Tallaght Bypass and M50/N81 junction.
    N34 Dundalk-Carrick on Shannon-Frenchpark (mentioned elsewhere)
    N60 Castlerea-N5(Tulsk). This enables the N60 between Roscommon and Castlerea to be removed. Once the N5 Tulsk road is improved no east-west journey will need to go via Roscommon. They'll use the N5.
    N58 Ballyvary-Balla. This makes it easier getting from Ballina to the N17 and Galway.
    N83, N84: Remove.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭D Trent


    spacetweek wrote: »
    My website has a map on this.

    The map includes more than just reclassifications so I'll list them here:

    N74: Greatly expanded to provide Kilkenny-Tipperary-Abbeyfeale-Listowel which connects the M9, M8, N21 and N69.
    N70: Kenmare-Clonkeen (as suggested elsewhere).
    N?: Bantry-Dunmanway-Macroom, to make it easier to get to the Ring of Cork.
    N88: Durrow-Roscrea. This gets you between Kilkenny and Athlone. 88 is an unused number.
    N75 Thurles-Nenagh: Provides for M8-Galway journeys.
    N81 Blessington-M9(Kilcullen): Enables Dublin-bound M7, M8 and M9 traffic to use the Tallaght Bypass to access the M50 instead of Naas Road. Would probably need big improvements to Tallaght Bypass and M50/N81 junction.
    N34 Dundalk-Carrick on Shannon-Frenchpark (mentioned elsewhere)
    N60 Castlerea-N5(Tulsk). This enables the N60 between Roscommon and Castlerea to be removed. Once the N5 Tulsk road is improved no east-west journey will need to go via Roscommon. They'll use the N5.
    N58 Ballyvary-Balla. This makes it easier getting from Ballina to the N17 and Galway.
    N83, N84: Remove.

    What's your feelings on N78? I feel it serves no purpose.


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