2018-2027 National Development Plan

sondagefaux

D Trent wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

To Mayo: N17, N59, N83, N84

To Tuam: N17 & N83

I have put up another post here on the rationalisation of the national secondary network: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057885669

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N17 is no longer in existence as far as Tuam- thanks to none other than M17

Technically the M17 is just the public name for that part of National Primary Route 17 which is under motorway regulations. In other words, the N17 still exists between Galway and Tuam.

In any case, Tuam is in Co. Galway and so the N17 does go from Galway into Mayo, as there is no motorway from Tuam onwards

hans aus dtschl

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Maybe we're both misunderstanding each other. My comments about "balance" were in response to another poster, who believes that Cork has been uniquely hard done by out of all of Ireland, and seems to say that roads investment outside of Cork should be matched euro for euro with investment inside Cork, for reasons of "balance". I disagree with this poster. My post above on "balance" was a rather glib response to what I viewed as his line of argument.

Regarding your objections about ROI on roads in Donegal, I don't have the figures in front of me. I would argue that even if roads in this region had a lower ROI than roads in, say, Kildare, it is in the interests of Ireland to enhance connectivity in that region. The northwest is almost cut off from the capital, the engine of our economy, and very legitimately complain that they are the only part of the country that has no high-quality road most of the way to Dublin.

As for your point about some road projects which were promised and then cancelled when the economy suddenly and unexpectedly collapsed and we plunged into one of the worst financial crises in the history of our nation, I have to say that I really find it hard to view that as some sort of political stunt. Especially after the incredible delivery of roads across the nation throughout the 2000s.

The argument for capital expenditure in the Northwest is that they're segregated from Dublin. This is valid. But it's rarely mentioned that there are people in Cork who are more than two hours from their closest city, too. This doesn't justify infrastructural spend though: people in Allihes don't need HQDC to Cork.

Look, I'm acutely aware that I'm derailing the thread with this line of thinking here, so I'll stop.

But what's prompting this train of thought is the use of the word "balance" (and not just by you, let's be fair). Infrastructural spend in this country is still seriously affected by political input rather than by value-for-money and adherence to development plans/strategies.

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

The argument for capital expenditure in the Northwest is that they're segregated from Dublin. This is valid. But it's rarely mentioned that there are people in Cork who are more than two hours from their closest city, too. This doesn't justify infrastructural spend though: people in Allihes don't need HQDC to Cork.

Look, I'm acutely aware that I'm derailing the thread with this line of thinking here, so I'll stop.

But what's prompting this train of thought is the use of the word "balance" (and not just by you, let's be fair). Infrastructural spend in this country is still seriously affected by political input rather than by value-for-money and adherence to development plans/strategies.

Exactly. Since 2011 the NRA continually reiterated that the M20 was the most important scheme in the country. It still took 6 years for it to become active as a scheme though.

There needs to be a national roads development policy of what needs to be done (from a high level - list out all improvements needed and update it every 5/6 years), then pick the most urgent schemes from this policy and develop them.

We now have a legacy of a shortage of ready to go road schemes between 2020 and 2022 or so due to the fact that between 2011 and 2017 only politically driven road schemes were given any funding, and as a result, all that will be built until then is a small scattered bundle of schemes, whilst important schemes lag far behind in the overall process.

Kevwoody

marno21 wrote:

We now have a legacy of a shortage of ready to go road schemes between 2020 and 2022 or so due to the fact that between 2011 and 2017 only politically driven road schemes were given any funding, and as a result, all that will be built until then is a small scattered bundle of schemes, whilst important schemes lag far behind in the overall process.

Is there any mechanism to fast track a project? I know these things take time but 2 or more years to go through route selection etc is a joke.

marno21

Kevwoody wrote: »

Is there any mechanism to fast track a project? I know these things take time but 2 or more years to go through route selection etc is a joke.

Adequately funded projects handled by adequately resourced RDOs is the solution

The M21 has taken 3.5 years from route options to ABP application. The Slane bypass has taken a year for route selection. This isn't sustainable or there will be no projects ready for construction when the N4/N5/N22 projects are complete in 2021/2022

Donegal Storm

Aside from the obvious infrastructural issues surely that's going to have a big knock on effect with construction companies as well. The likes of BAM, Roadbridge, Sisk etc aren't going to be too happy at tens of millions of Euro with of machinery sitting idle and rusting away once the current stream of projects are finished, same with engineers, project managers etc specialising in these schemes. You'd then run into problems of a lack of companies with sufficient scale and expertise once things eventually do start kicking off again, similar to whats happened with housing in the past few years

roadmaster

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Aside from the obvious infrastructural issues surely that's going to have a big knock on effect with construction companies as well. The likes of BAM, Roadbridge, Sisk etc aren't going to be too happy at tens of millions of Euro with of machinery sitting idle and rusting away once the current stream of projects are finished, same with engineers, project managers etc specialising in these schemes. You'd then run into problems of a lack of companies with sufficient scale and expertise once things eventually do start kicking off again, similar to whats happened with housing in the past few years

I dont think there is a problem there bam are flat out building in the south east and dublin and cant get men or machines and sisk are the same they are even now building houses with there new division Sisk Living. A lot lads just transfer from heavy civils to ground works for buildings etc . The plant is not an issue either as during the down turn nearly everything was shipped abroad and sold. So there is actually not that much spare capacity in second hand machines but in saying that HP is very handy to come by and new machines are easily shipped in when needed

Kevwoody

Donegal Storm wrote:

Aside from the obvious infrastructural issues surely that's going to have a big knock on effect with construction companies as well. The likes of BAM, Roadbridge, Sisk etc aren't going to be too happy at tens of millions of Euro with of machinery sitting idle and rusting away once the current stream of projects are finished, same with engineers, project managers etc specialising in these schemes. You'd then run into problems of a lack of companies with sufficient scale and expertise once things eventually do start kicking off again, similar to whats happened with housing in the past few years

Fortunately until now, the likes of BAM etc are involved in large infrastructure projects in the UK, and can move personnel and machinery over and back quite easily. It's the UK projects that are keeping them afloat, however with Brexit on the horizon, who knows what will happen.

marno21

We have 4 major projects with contractors appointed at the minute:

N25 New Ross PPP (BAM/Dragados PPP)
M11 Gorey/Enniscorthy PPP (BAM/Dragados PPP)
M7 Naas/Newbridge bypass (SIAC/Colas JV)
N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange (Sisk)

Then 3 projects at tender:

N4 Collooney/Castlebaldwin (award Sep/Oct 2018)
N5 Westport-Turlough (award Q2 2019)
N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney (award Q2 2019)

It's after that is where the issues arise (and remember - 2019 is the start of increased capital funding, so more scope for more projects):

Projects with planning: M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy, remainders of N56, N59, N86 low volume national seconadary projects (these total to about €100m in dispersed minor schemes). Also the Moycullen and Listowel bypasses at about €20m each.

Then, there's the N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge, with lies with ABP. After that, the M21 and N6 Galway schemes are to go to ABP in Q3/4 (whenever the Government get around to approving them). Beyond that, you have the 3 Donegal schemes (Letterkenny-Lifford, Letterkenny relief road, Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass), the M20 and the Slane bypass at route selection.

Things are looking grim. DTTAS need to allocated a lot of money next year towards really driving on some of those future projects, especially the 5 that have been reactivated this year (N2, N2, N4, N4 and N17). Otherwise there will be nothing to build soon.

It sickens me every time I drive the N20 that for the sake of €15m between 2015 and 2018 we could now have the M20 ready to go to An Bord Pleanala. 15 ****ing million. In that time, the economic cost of road deaths along the N20 has outweighed the cost of spending the money on Phases 1-4. I think there was 6 deaths on the N20 in 2016 alone.

roadmaster

I hope they put a upgrade of the Cavan bypass to the border in this plan. I was on it the other day it’s lethal with overtaking

Chris_5339762

marno21 wrote: »

It sickens me every time I drive the N20 that for the sake of €15m between 2015 and 2018 we could now have the M20 ready to go to An Bord Pleanala. 15 ****ing million. In that time, the economic cost of road deaths along the N20 has outweighed the cost of spending the money on Phases 1-4. I think there was 6 deaths on the N20 in 2016 alone.

Wasn't there more to it than that though? Once that €15mil had been spent and the thing was through planning that the CPOs had to be activated, which were far more than that and the government couldn't afford it? That was the reason I heard. Couldn't afford the CPOs.

Kermit.de.frog

Everything feels very static at the moment.

marno21

roadmaster wrote: »

I hope they put a upgrade of the Cavan bypass to the border in this plan. I was on it the other day it’s lethal with overtaking

There is no plans for any such scheme. The Belturbet bypass is only 5 years old so I don't expect that to be touched for some time.

Virginia bypass is in the plan, perhaps as part of the larger Kells-Cavan scheme.

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Wasn't there more to it than that though? Once that €15mil had been spent and the thing was through planning that the CPOs had to be activated, which were far more than that and the government couldn't afford it? That was the reason I heard. Couldn't afford the CPOs.

That was back in 2011. The M20 started from scratch in November 2016. Since then €3m has been spent, and there is only a requirement to spend a further €12m until it goes to An Bord Pleanala, which will be 2020 at the very earliest.

Had the scheme been reactivated, we'd be going to An Bord Pleanala at this time, and the CPO would need to be done in 2019. This would have necessitated a net spend of €15m between its reactivation and ABP submission, so €15m between 2015 and 2018. The idea that that was unaffordable, as was peddled by the Government at the time, is simply bollix
.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Everything feels very static at the moment.

It is, but it is the summer months when things don't get done.

There will be a lot of movement between now and the end of 2018 as there is a large queue of stuff to be done.

Kermit.de.frog

They have left half a dumbell interchange at M3 end at Kells so the road can continue on. This means it would be easier for it to simply continue as motorway.

M3 to Virginia at least?

Kermit.de.frog

See here...

marno21

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

See here...

2+2 likely north of Kells.

Kermit.de.frog

But they have designed the end so the motorway can continue...


No reason not to have the motorway go short of Virginia.

L1011

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

No reason not to have the motorway go short of Virginia.

Other than the traffic levels not existing and not likely to exist at any time in the future.

Aontachtoir

L1011 wrote: »

Other than the traffic levels not existing and not likely to exist at any time in the future.

Posts on this board in 10 years' time:

"How could they not have extended the M3 to Enniskillen? It's not like they didn't have the money!" 
"Why is Ireland the only country in Europe that can't plan roads properly?" 
"The southwest gets all the money, they haven't built a road up here in years!" 
"Why shouldn't we build a motorway from Cork to Bantry?" 
Etc...

roadmaster

marno21 wrote: »

There is no plans for any such scheme. The Belturbet bypass is only 5 years old so I don't expect that to be touched for some time.

Virginia bypass is in the plan, perhaps as part of the larger Kells-Cavan scheme.

I know at the moment there is nothing planned but hopefully something could happen. It could easily be retrofitted to 2+2 for very little money. You would not believe how bad it is with over taking . It’s only luck there is not much head on crashes.

Someone mentioned about M3 to enniskillin that would be something else compared to what’s the other side of the border as the current road looks like it was last touched up 20 years ago

marno21

August 2018:

N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge: An Bord Pleanala decision now due 8th November.
M7 Naas/Newbridge bypass upgrade: Widening works to be complete for Q1 2019. Remaining works to be complete by end of 2019.
N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange: Archaelogical work ongoing with completion expected well in advance of main construction works. Ground investigation works will soon get underway at potential soft ground areas along the route. Main construction work to begin in Q1 2019
M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy: Application for judicial review by local environmental movement made in late August. Adjourned until 19th September.
N56 Dungloe-Glenties: Tender issued for archaelogical services on remaining 16km in August
N59 Oughterard-Maam Cross: Tender issued for construction of 5km Maam Cross-Bunnakill section issued in August.
N59 Westport-Mulranny: Construction tender for Kilmeena section awarded to Carey's in August.
N69 Listowel bypass: Tenders for archaelogical services issued in August.
N70 Milltown bypass: Route options published in August
N86 Tralee-Dingle: 2 sections, Ballygarret-Camp (1.1km) and Ballynasare-Lispole (2.7km) opened in August.

Projects in Italics not part of Capital Plan.

marno21

A quiet month of August but I expect a significant amount of pickup before Christmas with a lot of the following expected, or promised, before 2018 end:

N2 Slane bypass: Publication of selected route and alignment details
N2 Clontibret-NI border: Tender award for Phases 1-4
N2 Castleblayney-Ardee: Tender award for Phases 1-4
N3 Clonee-M50: Further work on J2 Snugborough Interchange.
N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin: Tender award with construction to start in Q1 2019
N4 Mullingar-Longford: Issuing of tender for consultants for Phases 1-4
N4 Carrick-on-Shannon to Dromod: Issuing of tender for consultants for Phases 1-4
N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge: Planning decision by An Bord Pleanala
N6 Galway City Ring Road: Submission of project to An Bord Pleanala following approval of business case
N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange: Full tender award and contractors moving in on site; full start Q1 19
N13 Letterkenny-Manorcunningham + N56 Relief Road: Publication of preferred route
N13/N15 Ballybofey-Stranorlar bypass: Publication of preferred route
N14 Letterkenny-Lifford: Publication of preferred route
N17 Collooney-Tobercurry: Issuing of tender for consultants for Phases 1-4
M20 Cork-Limerick: Tender award for Phases 2-4 and start of route selection
M21 Limerick-Rathkeale-Foynes: Submission of project to An Bord Pleanala following approval of business case
M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy: Decision by High Court on whether to proceed with judicial review
M50 Eastern Bypass (South Port Access): Issuing of tender for consultants for Phases 1-4
N52 Ardee bypass: Full tender issued
N59 Moycullen bypass: Issuing of tender following review of tender documents
N59 Oughterard-Clifden: Tender award for Bunnakill-Maam Cross
N69 Listowel bypass: Issuing of construction tender
N72 Mallow Relief Road: Appointment of consultants and selection of final route

23 items there, we'll see how they go.

Redsoxfan

marno21 wrote: »

N2 Clontibret-NI border: Tender award for Phases 1-4
N2 Castleblayney-Ardee: Tender award for Phases 1-4

What's planned here? Is it dual carriageway or just improvements to existing alignment?

marno21

Redsoxfan wrote: »

What's planned here? Is it dual carriageway or just improvements to existing alignment?

2+2 dual carriageway more than likely. I believe a lot of the Ardee-Castleblayney upgrade will utilise the existing alignment.

Donegal Storm

Has there been an update on the N4 Castlebaldwin scheme? It was supposed to be Q4 of this year originally but have heard any news and theres still no signs of any prelims along the route

marno21

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Has there been an update on the N4 Castlebaldwin scheme? It was supposed to be Q4 of this year originally but have heard any news and theres still no signs of any prelims along the route

Tender award likely in October, with full construction beginning in Q1 2019. 2 year build anticipated. Should be open to traffic in the first half of 2021.

Limerick74

marno21 wrote: »

A quiet month of August but I expect a significant amount of pickup before Christmas with a lot of the following expected, or promised, before 2018 end:

N2 Slane bypass: Publication of selected route and alignment details
N2 Clontibret-NI border: Tender award for Phases 1-4
N2 Castleblayney-Ardee: Tender award for Phases 1-4
N3 Clonee-M50: Further work on J2 Snugborough Interchange.
N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin: Tender award with construction to start in Q1 2019
N4 Mullingar-Longford: Issuing of tender for consultants for Phases 1-4
N4 Carrick-on-Shannon to Dromod: Issuing of tender for consultants for Phases 1-4
N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge: Planning decision by An Bord Pleanala
N6 Galway City Ring Road: Submission of project to An Bord Pleanala following approval of business case
N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange: Full tender award and contractors moving in on site; full start Q1 19
N13 Letterkenny-Manorcunningham + N56 Relief Road: Publication of preferred route
N13/N15 Ballybofey-Stranorlar bypass: Publication of preferred route
N14 Letterkenny-Lifford: Publication of preferred route
N17 Collooney-Tobercurry: Issuing of tender for consultants for Phases 1-4
M20 Cork-Limerick: Tender award for Phases 2-4 and start of route selection
M21 Limerick-Rathkeale-Foynes: Submission of project to An Bord Pleanala following approval of business case
M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy: Decision by High Court on whether to proceed with judicial review
M50 Eastern Bypass (South Port Access): Issuing of tender for consultants for Phases 1-4
N52 Ardee bypass: Full tender issued
N59 Moycullen bypass: Issuing of tender following review of tender documents
N59 Oughterard-Clifden: Tender award for Bunnakill-Maam Cross
N69 Listowel bypass: Issuing of construction tender
N72 Mallow Relief Road: Appointment of consultants and selection of final route

23 items there, we'll see how they go.

M20 appointment is for Phases 1 - 4

marno21

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform today published a detailed schedule of Capital Spending between 2018 and 2022. It's the most up to date and detailed information about planned capital investment published since the NDP in February and answers a few questions.

The following is the latest (perhaps within a few months) schedule for the Capital Projects:

Project (Spend between 2018-2022, Start year, finish year)

N2 Slane bypass (€37m, 2021, 2024): Scheme at route selection
N5 Westport-Turlough (€158m, 2020, 2022): Land acquistion, advance works ongoing. Tendered in May
N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge (€82m, 2021, 2024): Scheme sent to ABP in December 2017. Decision due November 2018.
N6 Galway City Ring Road (€64m, 2021, 2025): Scheme to be sent to An Bord Pleanala in Q4 2018
M11 M50-Kilmacanogue (€7m, 2017, TBD): Appraisal plan has been prepared
M20 Cork-Limerick (€56m, 2021, 2025): Technical advisers to be appointed 2018.
M21/N69 Limerick-Adare-Foynes (€46m, 2021, 2025): Scheme to be sent to An Bord Pleanala in Q4 2018
N22 Ballyvourney-Macroom (€152m, 2019, 2022): At full tender stage now
M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy (€40m, 2021, 2024) - data is out of date as this scheme has now been referred to High Court
M50 Enhanced Motorway Operations: (€50m, 2017, 2021): Enabling works underway, procurement has commenced.
N59 Moycullen bypass (€41m, 2021, 2022): Tender documents being prepared.
N69 Listowel bypass (€23m, 2019, 2021): Land acquisiton
N72 Mallow Relief Road (€52m, 2020, 2022): Scheme at pre-appraisal stage. Route to be selected in late 2018.

Some projects are listed with no new information so I have omitted those from the above.

marno21

Upto 2022:

In addition to this, €19m will be spent on the initial phases of the N13/N56 Letterkenny Relief Road, N14 Letterkenny-Lifford & N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass.

€141m will be spent on design and planning of the rest of the national road schemes (N2 Ardee-C'blayney, N2 Clontibret-NI, N2 Ashbourne-Kilmoon X, N3 Virginia, M3 Clonee-M50, N4 Mullingar-Roosky, N4 CkonShannon, M4 Leixlip-Maynooth, N11/N25 Oilgate-Rosslare, N17 Knock-Collooney, N21 Abbeyfeale, N21 NCW, N22 Killarney, N24 LJ-Cahir, N24 Cahir-W'ford, N25 W'ford-Glenmore, N25 Ctwohill-Midleton, M50 Sth Port Access, N52 Tullamore-Kilbeggan)

€146m will be spent on minor works schemes (which will provide approx 45-65km of realignement of poor roads)

€29m will be spent on design & planning of a pipeline of regional/local roads.

Aontachtoir

Quiet few years ahead...