Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

Given the cost of extending from Pace to Navan is flagged to cost between €777m - €1.4bn how much would your proposed rail link cost? It's a total non-runner. What population is there along your proposed route?

Costs from here

To clarify - I'd support the Navan extension. I'd also support serious investment in Dub-Bel and Bel-Derry but I wouldn't support (which is what I was replying to) a greenfield rail line to Derry.

I'm very calm, can't see how what I stated could be seen otherwise. Doesn't matter when it's proposed it will never achieve the Business Case requirements given population density and the massive costs of rail infrastructure.

You can have all the visions you like, that's all they'll remain if you're talking about a greenfield rail link that extends from Navan to Derry via Enniskillen.

What purpose would it serve, how many services a day do you think it would warrant given the population along the route?

You're essentially talking about Metrolink levels of expenditure.

Well I don’t think that you can ignore the political history when it comes to rail investment.

I just don’t see brand new high speed rail lines happening here. I don’t think you need them.

By putting the right investment in the infrastructure of the two existing main lines (Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast), significant journey time improvements can be delivered, not just for end-to-end journeys but people using intermediate stations and other lines that feed off them will benefit too.

It will need some big decisions, such as four tracking parts of the northern line, but I think that you can deliver a lot more value going down the route of adding more track capacity on the existing lines, eliminating permanent speed restrictions and recasting the timetables to deliver better connectivity.

not even near metrolink levels of investment at all really, and even metrolink is cheap enough in terms of infrastructural investment compared to say, a rural motor way scheme.

doesn't have to be from navan, however taking in cavan town, the main towns in monaghan and donegal where they aline on a reasonable route wouldn't be a green field route but would be a route that happens to run some green field parts like every other railway in the country.

I'm in favour of improving the connectivity between the three large population centres. But I feel we desperately need to draw in more day-to-day end users with commuter rail as a priority.

Regarding people who live in Cork and work in Dublin, this is a sub-optimal scenario for most people, and it's likely subsidised by current housing problems in the Dublin area. As someone who has done this, and knowing others who have done this, it is not a viable long-term option for very many people and I don't know if we should really be hoping to grow that group significantly. It would be quite similar to the people I know who live in Cork and work in London. I don't think it's something we need to focus on as the top rail priority in Ireland.

It would be preferable as far as I'm concerned to make train commutes into urban areas easier and more attractive for short-distance and medium-distance commuters. So better integration with other modes, more commuter lines and stations, higher frequency, etc.

In addition, having travelled the Cobh-Belfast route this year, by far my biggest irritations were the comfort of the carriages and the wait times between connections in Cork and Dublin. But I'd still choose rail over car in a heartbeat. The overall journey time was not so poor by rail that I was dissuaded from using it. As a long-distance commuter, I would probably prioritise better comfort (including better internet and the ability to work en-route) and easier transfers/connections, over an hour or two less of overall journey time. The only competition from the car comes when you reach the journey end-points and can't easily get to your final destinations.

Just my own opinion!

I read the Irish Times article about what's in the all Ireland rail review. It talks of a brand new portadown to Letterkenny rail line. I'm actually quite disappointed, it seems that this document is quite simply an exercise in fantasy.

I would have liken a document based in realism, one that focused on long needed improvements such as: double tracking Portarlington to Athlone, kildare to kilkenny and Athenry to Galway, improving Limerick Junction, intercity electrification, improving speeds to over 200kmh, improving the service on lesser used lines eg ballybrophy branch and Waterford to Limerick, increased frequency on intercity routes, extensions to Navan and the ports, perhaps even Ringiskiddy.

Building new routes to Donegal is just fantasy, at present it is not possible to get from Belfast to Dublin for a 9am meeting by train, a distance of less than 200km and its the main line between the 2 largest cities with a catchment area population in excess of 3 million people, that is simply abysmal and would not be accepted anywhere else in Europe, we need to start there with the absolute basics and reverse 100 years of neglect of the railway instead of crayoning.

There also seems to be no acknowledgement of the fact that northern Ireland is flat broke and Britain will never invest in its infrastructure in any serious monetary amounts. The NI DFI has pretty much stopped road building and will leave Derry unconnected by dual carriageway for the foreseeable.

Yip, no point in talking about other things when you can't even get the basics right. We need to strengthen the core network before even considering reopening lines running through empty countryside.

Realistically, DART+ and the Cork suburban networks are going to take the rest of this decade to deliver, should also get a few other bits done in that time like LC removals between Mallow and LJ and passing loop at Oranmore. After that we need to get on with the bog standard improvements on the rest of the network which should have happened years ago, double tracking Portarlington to Athlone should be a priority along with improving journey times. Reopening other lines on the basis of carrying freight around the country makes no sense when the rest of the network doesn't have the capacity.

The worst part is that Ryan talks with more enthusiasm about these fantasy projects than he does about Metrolink. Anything that gets delivered will be despite him, not because of him.

Any national rail network review that doesn't have quad tracking of the northern line as a number one priority isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

This is a post from last September, and I'd occasionally have to do the Cobh - Belfast route. I'd be the opposite. I would never dream of doing such an awful trip by rail. You have connections in Cork, in Dublin (via the Luas) and have to deal with Irish rails complete fabrication of running times. Uncomfortable trains with barely working seat reservation... I would drive it without thinking. I'd be more likely to fly to Belfast via Amsterdam (and pick up some KLM tier points) than take that route on public transport.

I'll admit, €45 to 50 isn't bad, but its SEVEN AND A HALF HOURS worth. The drive is about five - with two stops make that six.

Cheapest I've seen KLM for is €90 single, but thats an odd ticket with a 7 hour layover in Amsterdam... I'd do that!

The demand for direct trains beyween Belfast and Cork would be tiny. The demand is between each city and Dublin so they can remain separate. The cost of allowing for trains between Cork and Belfast would be enormous. If such funding was available, it would be of far greater benefit if invested in the network generally, which would also improve Dublin - Cork and Dublin - Belfast journey times. There are plenty of easier wins available before considering a massive tunnel under Dublin.

This is why our rail network is so poor, everybody wants to throw money at new lines and mega projects while ignoring the numerous unglamorous but very beneficial projects which can deliver more Euro for Euro. Unfortunately our MfT is the worst for this.

no, the reason our rail network is so poor is down to a cultural mindset based in the 1960s, and lack of political will to improve it due to that mindset, a mindset which infected politicians and railway management alike.

if we were really a grown up country the dart would have been delivered as was originally intended in the 70s, and the railway investment that came during the boom would mean we would have a fantastic network now and we would be talking about enhancements and the odd reopening where possible.

As others have said, I believe that the through service from Cork-Belfast isn't a top priority. The number people making those journeys is incredibly small. I believe we need to focus primary efforts on where the majority of users and where the biggest benefit will come from: daily users, commuting. Would I like a direct Cork to Belfast service? Yes. At the expense of expanding commuter services elsewhere? No.

I hope the rail review won't be all about fantasy rail projects all over the country through mostly rural hinterland.

A rail line to Donegal through Northern Ireland is fantasy as long as there is dysfunction in NI and the UK government has no interest on large scale capital spending like that up north.

Cork and Dublin are getting their plans for commuter rail, this plan is an island wide review focused on inter City

There's little to no travel demand between Galway and Derry, a distance of some 300km, that's a long way for a train to go with no demand. Cork and Galway should absolutely be connected by rail within 2h30.

Not sure what advantage an athlone hub has over existing portarlington hub?

There is no chance of elevated rail through the Phoenix Park. Such a tunnel would be a second half of this century project and should only be considered after DART+ Tunnel has been delivered.

In the meantime, there are lots of upgrades of the existing network which can deliver immediate benefits and are also required before such a mega project can happen. It's the same as the old DU mega project, the upgrades proposed under DART+ should have been pursued individually back in the 00s instead of all being rolled up in something so big.

What is needed is a realistic, achievable plan for the next 20 years to optimise the existing network so that it can handle expansion. What happens after that is a matter for the future. Talk about reopening lines through rural areas is only a distraction.