How long before Irish reunification?

Schumi7 · 21-11-2019 12:59am

markodaly wrote: »

Just saw this now. In response to your questions.

1) I am advocating that state funding be withdrawn from schools that do not integrate and become multi-denominational.

In effect what you're advocating is the restriction of parental choice.

My own view however is that the state should provide integrated schools where there is sufficient demand for them. There already is an integrated sector btw, but the standard of education is inferior to that of the catholic sector and that's what you're not getting.

markodaly wrote: »

2) First of all, research has shown that educational outcomes in the north is the worst on this Island, and in terms of the UK, comes near the bottom of the list as well. The standard of education in the north is not good at all.

Whilst I'm unaware of the differences between the educational outcomes of North and South, your claim regarding UK outcomes is incorrect. NI students regularly outperform those in Britain at GCSE and A-level.

markodaly wrote: »

Secondly, I believe that the state should not be perpertuating a system that does nothing to break down the older sectarian barriers of yester year. It is clear that the education system in the north is a major and direct contributor to that system. Breaking it up and giving state funding to schools backed by the IEF should be the way to go.

And similar to blanch, you're letting a perhaps well-meaning egalitarian world view blind you to facts.

markodaly · 21-11-2019 1:10am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, it wasn't and plenty warned and informed about it. The information was there and for religious and moral reasons people ignored it.

So as I said, people do make the wrong decisions come referendum time.

Junkyard Tom · 21-11-2019 1:13am

30-40 years

markodaly wrote: »

Anyway, we in the South do not have secular publicly funded schools, quite the contrary.

Yeah, I know, I live in Cork bai.

In the North these problems are made worse by the sectarian nature of the population, thus divesting religious schools from public funds should be a prority. This is something both of us should be able to agree on easily.

Have you ever actually spent any time in the north? People don't lead sectarian lives up there. The only overtly sectarian organisation is the Orange Order who kick members out for marrying a Catholic but not for murdering one.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 1:18am

markodaly wrote: »

So as I said, people do make the wrong decisions come referendum time.

As I said, I was 21 in 1983 and if that demographic were around today a high majority of them would vote the same way again based on what their moral code was.

The information was there, they chose to ignore it, or discount it.

Not so, and AGAIN this is the point, in the Brexit ref. where the information was simply not there, particularly in relation to what knobbled the Brexit they wanted...the GFA and Ireland.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 1:22am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Have you ever actually spent any time in the north? People don't lead sectarian lives up there.

I was going to ask the same question myself. Anyone who spent time in the north would know that simple fact.

The only overtly sectarian organisation is the Orange Order who kick members out for marrying a Catholic but not for murdering one.

Don't forget the sectarian and discriminatory policies of the DUP and TUV which have no like counterparts in other political parties.

But I bet those 'concerned' about sectarianism won't have a 'plan' to deal with that.

markodaly · 21-11-2019 1:29am

Schumi7 wrote: »

In effect what you're advocating is the restriction of parental choice.

Not at all, if the RCC want to provide education, they are more than free to continue operating the school, its just they will more than likely have to stump up the cash.

Getting a religious education paid for by the taxpayer is not a right.

Whilst I'm unaware of the differences between the educational outcomes of North and South, your claim regarding UK outcomes is incorrect. NI students regularly outperform those in Britain at GCSE and A-level.

Pisa suggest they are a mixed bag.

https://www.ft.com/content/f6ae0b84-adf6-11e3-bc07-00144feab7de

There are data for assessing the performance of 15-year-olds. The OECD’s Programme for International Student Assessment (Pisa) is a triennial international survey that focuses on reading, mathematics and science skills. In the 2012 tests, Scotland and England were ahead in all three subjects and overall performed similarly. Northern Ireland was a little behind in all three disciplines, while Wales was further back, having also performed relatively poorly in 2009.

Facts presented to you.

markodaly · 21-11-2019 1:32am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Have you ever actually spent any time in the north? People don't lead sectarian lives up there. The only overtly sectarian organisation is the Orange Order who kick members out for marrying a Catholic but not for murdering one.

Yes, that is why there are more peacewalls in place now, than during the troubles.
NI society is grand and mirrors the south.... or something something.

There are huge divisions in the north, perperuated by a divide in education. To tackle those divisions one has to look at why 93% of children are being educated in essentially segretated schools.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 1:36am

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, that is why there are more peacewalls in place now, than during the troubles.
NI society is grand and mirrors the south.... or something something.

There are huge divisions in the north, perperuated by a divide in education. To tackle those divisions one has to look at why 93% of children are being educated in essentially segretated schools.

You are getting there.

Where are these 'peacewalls'? Are they spread across the north or in specific places?

The data you need to present is: how many sectarian children are being turned out of these schools...all 93%, 50% 25%?

Schumi7 · 21-11-2019 2:15am

markodaly wrote: »

Not at all, if the RCC want to provide education, they are more than free to continue operating the school, its just they will more than likely have to stump up the cash.

Getting a religious education paid for by the taxpayer is not a right.

Have you asked the parents about this, or the various boards of governors which operate the schools? I think you'd find such a proposal would meet with pretty fierce resistance.

Leaving aside the prospect of the state imposing your will on others, why would parents from the catholic community/tradition endorse a policy which would reduce the standard of education available for their children?

markodaly wrote: »

Pisa suggest they are a mixed bag.

https://www.ft.com/content/f6ae0b84-adf6-11e3-bc07-00144feab7de

Facts presented to you.

I wonder which sector has effected the data there? :rolleyes:

Anyway, here's a couple of reports bookending the last 5 years for you -

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/northern-ireland-students-outperform-the-rest-of-uk-yet-again-30509943.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49351481

Stop moaning ffs · 21-11-2019 3:19am

10-15 years

I haven’t seen anyone cut the absolute balls off anyone as effectively And politely as above.

Gwan Mary Lou. Love you

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 10:32am

Rather than the draconian, fascistic 'do as I say' model propounded here (that has unfortunate echos of what caused the conflict in the first place) this is a model that has much more benefits in the long term and needs full on investment.

It can also be targeted to the areas that need it and was devised by people who know that sectarianism isn't a widespread problem geographically.

https://www.qub.ac.uk/Research/GRI/mitchell-institute/FileStore/Filetoupload,756524,en.pdf

There are much more overt 'funded and sanctioned' sources of sectarianism that need to be confronted and tackled though.

maccored · 21-11-2019 4:15pm

30-40 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anyone who spent time in the north would know that simple fact.

i would say most of the usual anti sf/republican/nationalist posters on here havent spent much time there. Education probably comes from the indo and what they've heard other people say

facehugger99 · 21-11-2019 4:38pm

2.5 years living and working in Belfast for a consultancy employed by a number of Local Councils.

I got to experience at first hand the duplication and over-supply of public servant roles, the needless bureaucracy, the invention of work packages

Contracts were also routinely actioned based on whether schemes were "Orange" or "Green" rather than on any kind of cost/benefit analysis.

It's deeply dysfunctional and deeply embedded.

They make our public services, which are hardly a shining beacon of light, look streamlined, efficient and ethical.

We've enough issues of our own to be dealing with, including a €200bn national debt.

Anyone who suggests we take on the added headache of Nordieland to satisfy a misty-eyed sentiment, is a economic-moron in my book.

Stop moaning ffs · 21-11-2019 4:42pm

10-15 years

That’s rather sectarian all on its own.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 4:46pm

Rationalise and reform a dysfunctional Public Service (and save a fortune in the process) as has been done over and over around the world = TOO HARD

Shut down the current education system on a hunch it is creating sectarianism on a huge scale and frog march students and parents into a system they haven't asked for = EASY PEASY.

Welcome to our new overlords! :rolleyes:

facehugger99 · 21-11-2019 4:59pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Rationalise and reform a dysfunctional Public Service (and save a fortune in the process) as has been done over and over around the world = TOO HARD

Lets see them do it so.

It's not our issue to reform and rationalise their public service - that'd be the UK's problem.

We have enough issues of our own to be paying for and dealing with.

NI will need to be thoroughly de-sectarinised and economically reformed from top to bottom. The tools to do this are within the remit of SF and the DUP - lets see them learn to work together - after all it's apparently been done over and over around the world .

Nobody, outside a small fanatical minority, is going to be taking on a economic basket case and sectarian cesspit. The sooner the nationalists recognise this and work with the Unionists to maker things better, the sooner (as in decades from now) that consideration will be given to unification.

Failure to recognize this simple fact, is simply burying your head in the sand.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 5:07pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Lets see them do it so.

It's not our issue to reform and rationalise their public service - that'd be the UK's problem.

We have enough issues of our own to be paying for and dealing with.

NI will need to be thoroughly de-sectarinised and economically reformed from top to bottom. The tools to do this are within the remit of SF and the DUP - lets see them learn to work together - after all it's apparently been done over and over around the world .

Nobody, outside a small fanatical minority, is going to be taking on a economic basket case and sectarian cesspit. The sooner the nationalists recognise this and work with the Unionists to maker things better, the sooner (as in decades from now) that consideration will be given to unification.

Failure to recognize this simple fact, is simply burying your head in the sand.

You pointed towards the solution yourself.

A clean slate. Take the opportunity to create a new Public Service for a new country, and a new Health Service etc etc. Learn from the mistakes both jurisdictions have made.

Everybody wins. Unless you are going to pretend we have perfect or near perfect examples of the above?

facehugger99 · 21-11-2019 5:15pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You pointed towards the solution yourself.

A clean slate. Take the opportunity to create a new Public Service for a new country, and a new Health Service etc etc. Learn from the mistakes both jurisdictions have made.

Everybody wins. Unless you are going to pretend we have perfect or near perfect examples of the above?

Nope - as per usual you have it backasswards.

They need to clean up their act first - not afterwards.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 5:19pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Nope - as per usual you have it backasswards.

They need to clean up their act first - not afterwards.

Their's is a failed statelet, and it isn't going to change after 100 years- hence the need to end partition.

Our PS and HS are in need of major reform = win win opportunity for everyone.

facehugger99 · 21-11-2019 5:24pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Their's is a failed statelet, and it isn't going to change after 100 years- hence the need to end partition.

Our PS and HS are in need of major reform = win win opportunity for everyone.

Nope - we are in the luxurious position of not having to solve their problems.

They need to learn to live together and work together.

The ROI is not going to waft in like a fairy godmother with a big bundle of cash and a solution to their internal issues. The Nationalists will need to accept that and stop undermining the viability of NI. They can bleat about failed-states as much as they like - it's all the more reason for us not to take it on.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 5:30pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Nope - we are in the luxurious position of not having to solve their problems.

They need to learn to live together and work together.

The ROI is not going to waft in like a fairy godmother with a big bundle of cash and a solution to their internal issues. The Nationalists will need to accept that and stop undermining the viability of NI. They can bleat about failed-states as much as they like - it's all the more reason for us not to take it on.

I would say the highest things on a 'state' wishlist for most Irish people would be a functioning Health Service and Public Service.

Frame a UI as a chance to reform and renew both from the ground up and they will be more than willing (having paid through the nose for dysfunctional ones since the birth of the state) to consider that.

Stop moaning ffs · 21-11-2019 5:33pm

10-15 years

Thread

https://twitter.com/dannygalway/status/1197211327930028033?s=21

facehugger99 · 21-11-2019 5:36pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Frame a UI as a chance to reform and renew both from the ground up and they will be more than willing (having paid through the nose for dysfunctional ones since the birth of the state) to consider that.

NI will be 'framed' on the basis of how much it will cost - not on some happy-clappy sentiment or money-tree nonsense.

If you think reform of our Health Service somehow becomes easier with the added drag of NI and their dysfunctional and overstaffed public servants, you are not living in the real world.

Why would we even need NI to reform our own Health Service? Apparently it's been done over and over around the world

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 5:41pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

NI will be 'framed' on the basis of how much it will cost - not on some happy-clappy sentiment or money-tree nonsense.

If you think reform of our Health Service somehow becomes easier with the added drag of NI and their dysfunctional and overstaffed public servants, you are not living in the real world.

Why would we even need NI to reform our own Health Service? Apparently it's been done over and over around the world

Did you forget the polling that shows how many want a UI Facehugger? You seem to be speaking for yourself and pretending that is the vast majority view.

Nobody wants to pay taxes to make a bigger mess, the polls show that.

So frame it as a ground up reform and rebuild and the value for money that will bring.

What is so scary about that?

shootermacg · 21-11-2019 5:42pm

I'd imagine the money would come rolling in from Europe and the states should it ever be a realistic option.

Stop moaning ffs · 21-11-2019 5:51pm

10-15 years

shootermacg wrote: »

I'd imagine the money would come rolling in from Europe and the states should it ever be a realistic option.

100% would. Something the naysayers seem unaware of.

tipptom · 21-11-2019 5:59pm

10-15 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

Lets see them do it so.

It's not our issue to reform and rationalise their public service - that'd be the UK's problem.

We have enough issues of our own to be paying for and dealing with.

NI will need to be thoroughly de-sectarinised and economically reformed from top to bottom. The tools to do this are within the remit of SF and the DUP - lets see them learn to work together - after all it's apparently been done over and over around the world .

Nobody, outside a small fanatical minority, is going to be taking on a economic basket case and sectarian cesspit. The sooner the nationalists recognise this and work with the Unionists to maker things better, the sooner (as in decades from now) that consideration will be given to unification.

Failure to recognize this simple fact, is simply burying your head in the sand.

Hello 1960s.
Think you need to step out of your fanatical Unionist bubble if you think that's the case.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 6:02pm

shootermacg wrote: »

I'd imagine the money would come rolling in from Europe and the states should it ever be a realistic option.

Despite what the naysayers say, there is a very clear and present benefit for the rest of the EU in a secure and stable 'whole' Ireland.

Junkyard Tom · 21-11-2019 6:03pm

30-40 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

we

facehugger99 wrote: »

our/we

Form a political party for your we/our and see how you do. I can only imagine the bunch of oddballs it would attract.

I can see it now, Ruth Dudley Edwards, Kevin Myers, Ian O'Doherty, Eoin Harris, Michael McDowell.. all the contrarian, revisionist, trolls aligning themselves with the UDA/UVF.

Just be careful you don't cause a deep rift in the body-politic in the south - you wouldn't want the 'up there' issues going island-wide.

facehugger99 · 21-11-2019 6:08pm

shootermacg wrote: »

I'd imagine the money would come rolling in from Europe and the states should it ever be a realistic option.

Moneytree alert!

How long before Irish reunification?

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