How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I mentioned it in my post actually.

State funding to all religious schools in the north should be stopped immediately and funding should be only given to those which are fully integrated.

I am not forcing anything anyone, they are still free to attend their religious school but they will have to pay for it. Seperation of church and state and all that, something you favour in the south. Why are you partionist in your thinking Francie?

We aren't finished doing it in the south, as you may have noticed.

You can't wave a magic wand to do it because it takes time and patience.

You can do it at the point of a gun/by force if you wish but you have to own that too. 'Fcuk em' isn't really a stable democratic governing policy anymore. Ask a Unionist about that.

markodaly

maccored wrote: »

why would ireland rejoin the commonwealth regardless of what happens? its obvious markodaly wants ireland to rejoin 'a political association of 53 member states, nearly all of them former territories of the British Empire'.

Why would Ireland go backwards and do that?

Strawman alert.

It is not I who would want that but Unionists may want/demand it as part of the new UI. They may want something else too, I just used it as an example that a UI is not going to be so simple. New flags, new anthems, new electoral systems, new constitution as well more likely. It is not going to be a Dev Ireland with 6 counties thrown into the mix. It is going to be something different and dare I say it, armchair republicans may come out of it very unhappy.

My point is proved though, given the choice between a UI which means Ireland rejoin the commonwealth, or no UI I guess many will pick the latter.

Its like the Brexit argumement all over again. Zealots and fantatics fighting for a pure unvarnished utopian Brexit/UI.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We aren't finished doing it in the south, as you may have noticed.

You can't wave a magic wand to do it because it takes time and patience.

You can do it at the point of a gun/by force if you wish but you have to own that too. 'Fcuk em' isn't really a stable democratic governing policy anymore. Ask a Unionist about that.

I do notice, yet for something you would be in favour of in the South, you reject in the North. Now that is a partionist attitude if I ever saw one.

Schumi7

blanch152 wrote: »

Ideally I am in favour of a united Ireland, pragmatically I accept that it is not a practical proposition for at least 20 years, and by then, other options may be on the table. So less of the partitionist jibes please. Labelling those you disagree with is a clear sign of dehumanising differences, the sort of approach favoured by racists and homophobes, so be careful you don't go down the same path.

Whilst advising others to be careful of the path they go down, perhaps you could be more cognisant of the fact that any rejection of a united Ireland will have the effect of making Irish people in the North/NI akin to refugees in their own country.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I do notice, yet for something you would be in favour of in the South, you reject in the North. Now that is a partionist attitude if I ever saw one.

I DON'T reject it in the north. I REJECT your method.

Junkyard Tom

30-40 years

markodaly wrote: »

Indeed, the shoe could be on the other foot as part of the UI 'agreement' that we will be voting on, could be very very unpaltiable for armchair republicans. E.g. rejoining the commonwealth.

Aren't all Republicans of the armchair sort these days? What a useless outdated epithet. I think you might be arguing with a caricature.

Regardless, back in 2019, yes I agree that there may well be bitter pills to swallow for some people who think that a UI will be simply absorbing the northeast into our current setup, it almost certainly won't work like that.

What most people should be agreeing on though is the end to any policy that permits and maintains the status of a segregatted and sectarian state

Has anyone disagree with that? As I've already stated, I'm a secularist and devout agnostic. Although.. if you consider the Protestant population in the south after partition they may have considered forced secularisation of schools as an attack on their religion? No?

Schumi7

markodaly wrote: »

What most people should be agreeing on though is the end to any policy that permits and maintains the status of a segregatted and sectarian state. First of the bat, would be the end to segregatted education.

I've been reading the last 10 pages or so and a lot of the input on education has ranged from the ill-informed and perhaps well-meaning offerings from Blanch and yourself, to the more totalitarian leanings of the safely ignored facehugger.

I understand why you want to abolish parental choice, but there's a couple of obvious questions to ask from that:

i) Are you advocating that the state should acquire so-called religious schools through some sort of compulsory purchase scheme?

& ii) Why would people from the catholic tradition endorse a policy which would reduce the standard of education available for their children?

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

As I've already stated, I'm a secularist and devout agnostic.

Now there's an oxymoron.

TimeUp

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

blanch152 wrote: »

The €12 billion is a significant underestimate, it doesn't include the cost of harmonising social welfare and public service pay. It also doesn't include the cost of rolling out the NHS across the South, neither does it include the costs of harmonising the funding of education. All of these costs are a multiple of €12 billion and will have to be paid.

The conundrum at the heart of a united Ireland is that you have to harmonise upwards i.e. adopt the best system for every public service, otherwise people won't like it (who in the South would vote to reduce disability benefit to NI levels?) and would vote against a united Ireland. However, that means huge increases in taxes, and people won't like that either, so they would vote against a united Ireland. Once you spell out what a united Ireland means in practice rather than the touchy feely wouldn't it be nice approach to date, then you cause a significant number of people to turn against it.

On the other side, as we have seen with Brexit, people (Brexiteers) can be stupid enough to vote for something without realising the consequences. Voting for a united Ireland anytime in the next 40 years would be as stupid as voting for Brexit. The only way it can happen is for the North to sort out its education system, sort out its industrial development and become self-sustaining and move towards convergence before unity is discussed. The problem with that for the united Irelanders is that if Northern Ireland becomes self-sufficient, and the current trend of the emergence of a Northern Irish identity continues, then why would they united with anyone, they are bigger than many existing EU states, why not go independent at that stage?

All of the above taken together explains the big push for unification at the moment. If we wait too long, the chance will be gone as the Northern Irish identity will emerge - this can be seen in the falling vote for Sinn Fein in the North which I fully expect to continue in the forthcoming general election. If we explain it too much, people will also be against it because of the practicalities. Seize the opportunity created by worries about Brexit and we will get there.

The biggest fear of the united Irelanders is a soft Brexit that makes little difference to the North, the scaremongering won't have any effect. Secretly, they are all Boris supporters.

Ok, I get there would be costs, but I'm sure there would end up being economic advantages that can justify the push for a United Ireland, romanticism aside.

facehugger99

TimeUp wrote: »

Ok, I get there would be costs, but I'm sure there would end up being economic advantages that can justify the push for a United Ireland, romanticism aside.

If you're sure, you'll be able to list and cost them out for us here I presume?

TimeUp

Ulster Says No. It will never happen

facehugger99 wrote: »

If you're sure, you'll be able to list and cost them out for us here I presume?

Well, I'm actually not sure at all lol

What I really mean is, there must be some economic advantages to unification, and perhaps, it all depends on how things are dealt with, they may exceed the costs.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Strawman alert.

It is not I who would want that but Unionists may want/demand it as part of the new UI. They may want something else too, I just used it as an example that a UI is not going to be so simple. New flags, new anthems, new electoral systems, new constitution as well more likely. It is not going to be a Dev Ireland with 6 counties thrown into the mix. It is going to be something different and dare I say it, armchair republicans may come out of it very unhappy.

My point is proved though, given the choice between a UI which means Ireland rejoin the commonwealth, or no UI I guess many will pick the latter.

Its like the Brexit argumement all over again. Zealots and fantatics fighting for a pure unvarnished utopian Brexit/UI.

So you have invented some sort of 'notional' dream that republicans have (I haven't actually heard a republican say that all these things...the flag, the anthem, the Commonwealth are OFF the table btw) and claimed they will be disappointed?

That is a fairly tame and easy to make argument. I suppose it centres around some 4 green fields, Unionist free, comely catholic maidens 'dream'? Point us to what you mean here?

And good lord, is every referendum now going to boiled down to a comparison to the shambolic Brexit one?
We have never conducted a referendum like 'the Brexit one' why would we start now?

facehugger99

TimeUp wrote: »

Well, I'm actually not sure at all lol

What I really mean is, there must be some economic advantages to unification, and perhaps, it all depends on how things are dealt with, they may exceed the costs.

All the costing info would need to be calculated and presented in advance of any vote. In reality there's nothing being done on this aspect because we're decades away from even discussing it as a possibility.

I'm not convinced that the economic benefits will amount to much. It's more likely there will be a deficit of 10's of billions of euro every year unless there is a great deal of economic and societal reform in NI.

Unfortunately the 2 main parties up there are against any such changes as it undermines them politically.

A more likely scenario is the concept of national borders will seem anachronistic in a more enlightened future of 30 to 40 years time. I have great hopes that future generations will view the petty squabbling over a few hundred square kms of land, bemusing.

FrancieBrady

TimeUp wrote: »

Well, I'm actually not sure at all lol

What I really mean is, there must be some economic advantages to unification, and perhaps, it all depends on how things are dealt with, they may exceed the costs.

If you look up all the economic projections pro & anti a UI, they weigh up the economic pluses and minuses, too detailed to go into here. Whether you agree with the conclusions of the reports or not, the areas where there will be benefits are there.

That more work and modelling and discussion needs to be done by calm people not interested in scaremongering, is without a doubt. A UI is an investment in a future and has more than 'economic' dividends.

Here are a couple of those:

https://www.paulgosling.net/2018/04/2915/

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-northern-ireland-unification-2672681-Mar2016/

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/joint_committee_on_the_implementation_of_the_good_friday_agreement/reports/2017/2017-08-02_brexit-and-the-future-of-ireland-uniting-ireland-and-its-people-in-peace-and-prosperity_en.pdf

maccored

30-40 years

markodaly wrote: »

Strawman alert.

It is not I who would want that but Unionists may want/demand it as part of the new UI. They may want something else too, I just used it as an example that a UI is not going to be so simple. New flags, new anthems, new electoral systems, new constitution as well more likely. It is not going to be a Dev Ireland with 6 counties thrown into the mix. It is going to be something different and dare I say it, armchair republicans may come out of it very unhappy.

My point is proved though, given the choice between a UI which means Ireland rejoin the commonwealth, or no UI I guess many will pick the latter.

Its like the Brexit argumement all over again. Zealots and fantatics fighting for a pure unvarnished utopian Brexit/UI.

Strawman alert? You’ve basically just admitted you base your commonwealth idea on some that in your opinion might happen because you think the unionists will want that?

You make things up and when questioned call the question a ‘strawman’

Think you've been caught out there

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

‘Simultaneous north/south referendums’

https://twitter.com/think32_/status/1197086296612622336?s=21

FrancieBrady

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

‘Simultaneous north/south referendums’

https://twitter.com/think32_/status/1197086296612622336?s=21

I think this is the 'academic' Nelson McCausland, the DUP and TUV were trying to silence. (May be wrong on that)

Here is the transcript of his speech:


http://qpol.qub.ac.uk/uniting-the-island-brexit-and-constitutional-futures/

Second, my own view, is that this island is already in a conversation about the constitutional future – there is a habit of neglecting the work completed or underway – by Justice Richard Humphreys among many others (we collated some of this in our recent report on the EU and Irish Unity). Lazy, dismissive shorthand prevails – at its worst it reveals a condescending attitude towards civic leadership that takes place outside of approved, orthodox settings. Forgetting of course that it was courageous civic leadership that underpinned the entire peace process.

Pretending that there is no work done or this is not in fact happening is unhelpful – especially if the collective ambition is to encourage and promote responsible planning and preparation.

The island is on a path towards concurrent referendums on whether people would prefer a united Ireland (and thus EU membership) or wish to retain the Union with Britain. This is acknowledged within the internal constitutional legal orders of both states, underpinned by international law, and recognition is implied by the EU in its endorsement of the GFA in all its parts. Making use of the arrangements to test the principle of consent/right to self-determination – at the appropriate time and with proper preparation – should provoke no one. Planning has commenced; governments will catch up.

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As Dytalus reasonably and sensibly pointed out a long time ago, religious control of schools bears no resemblance to the apartheid state of America. People send their children to schools voluntarily here and nobody is 'forced' to go to a certain school. It cheapens the debate here to keep making the comparison.

As someone with an interest in Irish schools,I've noticed there are many which describe themselves as 'non denominational' and as a footnote,schools in England tend to state Catholic or Church of England although this isn't strictly adhered to.A friends son has recently passed the entrance exam for a Catholic grammar school and been offered a place on condition a Catholic would have preference if he applied.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

It was late and maybe I was tired but the poster seemed to be saying the refs would happen one after another. They just couldn’t. They’d have to happen on the same day as w the GF ref. To Do it any other way would be pointless and potentially very bad if there were two different outcomes as has been pointed out.

We all seem to forget the Brits are already working on this and have some serious players involved

Investigating the mechanics of unification referendums in Ireland, North and South
Posted by The Constitution Unit
https://constitution-unit.com/2019/09/06/investigating-the-mechanics-of-unification-referendums-in-ireland-north-and-south/

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

As someone with an interest in Irish schools,I've noticed there are many which describe themselves as 'non denominational' and as a footnote,schools in England tend to state Catholic or Church of England although this isn't strictly adhered to.A friends son has recently passed the entrance exam for a Catholic grammar school and been offered a place on condition a Catholic would have preference if he applied.

Is there a point there Rob, coz I can't see one.

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is there a point there Rob, coz I can't see one.

No,I'm just waffling:)

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

No,I'm just waffling:)

Yeh, but is it Proddie or Caclick 'Waffle'?

blanch152

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

‘Simultaneous north/south referendums’

https://twitter.com/think32_/status/1197086296612622336?s=21

Is that a joint Government statement from the British and Irish governments, or is it an academic offering his view from an ivory tower?

blanch152

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It was late and maybe I was tired but the poster seemed to be saying the refs would happen one after another. They just couldn’t. They’d have to happen on the same day as w the GF ref. To Do it any other way would be pointless and potentially very bad if there were two different outcomes as has been pointed out.

We all seem to forget the Brits are already working on this and have some serious players involved

Investigating the mechanics of unification referendums in Ireland, North and South
Posted by The Constitution Unit
https://constitution-unit.com/2019/09/06/investigating-the-mechanics-of-unification-referendums-in-ireland-north-and-south/

Given that they don't seem to know that the plural of referendum is referenda, I worry about the quality of the academics looking at this issue.

blanch152

Schumi7 wrote: »

I've been reading the last 10 pages or so and a lot of the input on education has ranged from the ill-informed and perhaps well-meaning offerings from Blanch and yourself, to the more totalitarian leanings of the safely ignored facehugger.

I understand why you want to abolish parental choice, but there's a couple of obvious questions to ask from that:

i) Are you advocating that the state should acquire so-called religious schools through some sort of compulsory purchase scheme?

& ii) Why would people from the catholic tradition endorse a policy which would reduce the standard of education available for their children?



Now there's an oxymoron.

Simplest thing for the state to do is to remove public funding from religious schools.

Corbyn is planning to remove all State funding for private schools in the UK, that would just be an extension of his plan.

Why would the policy reduce the standard of education available for the children of people from the catholic tradition?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Given that they don't seem to know that the plural of referendum is referenda, I worry about the quality of the academics looking at this issue.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/why-the-plural-of-referendum-must-be-referendums/

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Simplest thing for the state to do is to remove public funding from religious schools.

Corbyn is planning to remove all State funding for private schools in the UK, that would just be an extension of his plan.

Why would the policy reduce the standard of education available for the children of people from the catholic tradition?

Are you gonna lay out what you think the DUP, a religiously fundamentalist political party's reaction to your 'initiative' would be?



*I reiterate that 'I do not favour religiously controlled education'.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you gonna lay out what you think the DUP, a religiously fundamentalist political party's reaction to your 'initiative' would be?



*I reiterate that 'I do not favour religiously controlled education'.

They would probably be as against it as any of the die-hard republicans on here. Once again, both extremes will have found common cause.

Change is always resisted in Northern Ireland, probably the most backward-looking place I have ever visited.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

They would probably be as against it as any of the die-hard republicans on here. Once again, both extremes will have found common cause.

Change is always resisted in Northern Ireland, probably the most backward-looking place I have ever visited.

You never did quote these mythical 'die-hard republicans' that are against ending religiously controlled schools.


But anyway, here we go again with another fascistic dogmatic plan that you have not the foggiest care about how it will impact real people.

Change is happening in education by the way and is not being 'resisted' everywhere. The actual evidence is that integrated education has doubled in numbers and schools are over subscribed since the GFA. Invest in it and they will come, without chaotic and bullying, ill thought out, initiatives like you propound.
There is also much much more happening in positive integration and cross community work too but let's indulge in some 'backward looking' sneering eh?

facehugger99

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You never did quote these mythical 'die-hard republicans' that are against ending religiously controlled schools.


But anyway, here we go again with another fascistic dogmatic plan that you have not the foggiest care about how it will impact real people.

Change is happening in education by the way and is not being 'resisted' everywhere. The actual evidence is that integrated education has doubled in numbers and schools are over subscribed since the GFA. Invest in it and they will come, without chaotic and bullying, ill thought out, initiatives like you propound.
There is also much much more happening in positive integration and cross community work too but let's indulge in some 'backward looking' sneering eh?

An end to sectarianism is anathema to the hardline republicans and the hardline unionists. Sectarianism is in their genes and provides their lifeblood.

They will fight it tooth and nail and cheerleaders like yourself will defend their right to.

It's time for the moderate centre to reclaim the initiative. Abolishing stare funding for religiously denominated schools would be a great first step and begin the slow process of advancing NI to some form of societal normality.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

blanch152 wrote: »

Given that they don't seem to know that the plural of referendum is referenda, I worry about the quality of the academics looking at this issue.

Both are acceptable and frequently used. Really scrambling to land a point there blanch