How long before Irish reunification?

maccored · 20-11-2019 3:35pm

30-40 years

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The brilliant thing is, there will be citizens assemblies north and south. Presented with all the facts and costs and outcomes etc.
and it will just be regular citizens involved. I’m sure they’ll try get sleeper agents in but Iona tried that back in repeal and failed spectacularly. They’re pretty rigorous about checking for any affiliation apparently.

discussion i think is imperative. theres many outlandish ideas about what a UI can be - my pet hate one is the idea that 'we cant afford the north' line of limited thinking. The basic plan needs ot be thrashed out and everyone on the island needs a say.

blanch152 · 20-11-2019 3:35pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No blanch it would not, the majority in the north and south signed up to measures in the GFA. Democracy in action.

This ^ from the guy who called SF and the DUP 'sectarian' party's.

Now you pivot away from that. Fair enough. As I said before, impossible to debate with such dis-ingenuousness.

So we need to tread softly, softly with change in schools, but the minute there is a 50% plus one majority, we ram constitutional change down people's throats.

Are the UUP and Alliance no longer unionist? Last I checked, they didn't share the sectarian outlook of the DUP.

blanch152 · 20-11-2019 3:36pm

maccored wrote: »

discussion i think is imperative. theres many outlandish ideas about what a UI can be - my pet hate one is the idea that 'we cant afford the north' line of limited thinking. The basic plan needs ot be thrashed out and everyone on the island needs a say.

Except the partitionists and the unionists, they need to be shouted down.

Stop moaning ffs · 20-11-2019 3:41pm

10-15 years

Education outcomes are rock bottom up north particularly among Protestant kids. They’re leaving even before finishing secondary. And everyone up there saying all schools woefully underfunded.
So young teen from a Protestant family and poorer area is more than likely going to be engaged in anti social behavior at best and his peers and area mold him into a proper little loyalist thug gurrier and the cycle continues.

There has to be some definable reasons why catholic kids are doing better and have better outcomes. Far more of them go on to third level than their counterparts.

So I’m not clear if it’s segregation is causing that or if it’s peer group level pressure in school or socially outside it.

Stop moaning ffs · 20-11-2019 3:43pm

10-15 years

maccored wrote: »

discussion i think is imperative. theres many outlandish ideas about what a UI can be - my pet hate one is the idea that 'we cant afford the north' line of limited thinking. The basic plan needs ot be thrashed out and everyone on the island needs a say.

I’m hearing this more and more among moderate unionists. ‘This place is an absolute ****hole especially economically. It couldn’t be any worse in a UI’.

the moderates are the majority let’s remember. It’s a silent majority. We only ever seem to use the extremes as weapons to make points here it seems

FrancieBrady · 20-11-2019 3:45pm

blanch152 wrote: »

So we need to tread softly, softly with change in schools, but the minute there is a 50% plus one majority, we ram constitutional change down people's throats.

People accepted the GFA in massive numbers. There is nobody suggesting the ramming of anything.
The invitation is there to take part in the discussion, to have your say, and to make proposals.

Are the UUP and Alliance no longer unionist? Last I checked, they didn't share the sectarian outlook of the DUP.

Do the UUP want to take the draconian measures you propose? Do the Alliance?

The answer to save you some work, is No, they don't. Here is the UUP stance:

The UUP wants to deliver a single state education system where children of all faiths and none are educated together.
We recognise that a single system will not be achieved overnight and we must ensure that any change enjoys public confidence and parental support.

So what of their rights and opinions when you implement your 'overnight' plan of cutting funding?

Nobody is proposing politically what you are proposing.

Stop moaning ffs · 20-11-2019 3:49pm

10-15 years

blanch152 wrote: »

Except the partitionists and the unionists, they need to be shouted down.

You can’t shout down although DUP. They won’t take part in the conversation in the first place. Once again cutting their own noses off to their own ultimate detriment

Schumi7 · 20-11-2019 3:51pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Is that a joint Government statement from the British and Irish governments, or is it an academic offering his view from an ivory tower?

It's a professor of constitutional law offering his view on the constitutional matters stirred up by Brexit.

In other words, he's doing his job.

blanch152 wrote: »

Given that they don't seem to know that the plural of referendum is referenda, I worry about the quality of the academics looking at this issue.

I still use referenda most of the time, but according to the Oxford English Dictionary referendums is logically preferable as the plural form.

Schumi7 · 20-11-2019 4:03pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Simplest thing for the state to do is to remove public funding from religious schools.

You do realise that the parents of children in say the catholic education sector pay taxes?

blanch152 wrote: »

Corbyn is planning to remove all State funding for private schools in the UK, that would just be an extension of his plan.

The rise of private schools in Britain is a direct result of the decision to abolish the grammar school system with the introduction of the comprehensive education in the 1960s.

blanch152 wrote: »

Why would the policy reduce the standard of education available for the children of people from the catholic tradition?

Because the state education sector is inferior to the catholic sector; delivering lower educational attainment for students.

blanch152 wrote: »

We could do the simple thing, religious organisations divest themselves from the schools, leaving the state to take over management.

The resistance to this is eye-opening.

Whilst your intentions may be well-meaning, the more eye-opening thing here is your ignorance of facts.

Schumi7 · 20-11-2019 4:27pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Education outcomes are rock bottom up north particularly among Protestant kids. They’re leaving even before finishing secondary. And everyone up there saying all schools woefully underfunded.
So young teen from a Protestant family and poorer area is more than likely going to be engaged in anti social behavior at best and his peers and area mold him into a proper little loyalist thug gurrier and the cycle continues.

There has to be some definable reasons why catholic kids are doing better and have better outcomes. Far more of them go on to third level than their counterparts.

The reasons are simply that the importance of education was stressed much more within the catholic community/tradition for obvious reasons, and the catholic education sector is superior to the state sector as a result.

In any case, as far as I'm aware so-called faith schools (no matter the faith) tend to be better than their state counterparts in most Western countries. I always laugh at the thought of the many English people feigning faith, the catholic variety in particular, in an effort to get their child into a better school.

FrancieBrady · 20-11-2019 4:58pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You can’t shout down although DUP. They won’t take part in the conversation in the first place. Once again cutting their own noses off to their own ultimate detriment

They don't seem to have a problem when the straitjacket of the party line is gone. I.E. Peter Robinson recently in Donegal.

Stop moaning ffs · 20-11-2019 5:01pm

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They don't seem to have a problem when the straitjacket of the party line is gone. I.E. Peter Robinson recently in Donegal.

What happened there?

FrancieBrady · 20-11-2019 5:12pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

What happened there?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/peter-robinson-has-delivered-a-wake-up-call-for-unionism-1.3581228

Stop moaning ffs · 20-11-2019 5:43pm

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/peter-robinson-has-delivered-a-wake-up-call-for-unionism-1.3581228

Wow. That’s a serious gear shirt for him no?
Am I even reading that right? He’s telling unionism to get engaged and get ready fo a UI??

Isn’t iris his wife??)

This is bizarre. But if he sees it you’d imagine Sammy and co do too. Just their reactions are different

FrancieBrady · 20-11-2019 5:51pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Wow. That’s a serious gear shirt for him no?
Am I even reading that right? He’s telling unionism to get engaged and get ready fo a UI??

Isn’t iris his wife??)

This is bizarre. But if he sees it you’d imagine Sammy and co do too. Just their reactions are different

I think he was doing what the article suggested...facing reality and trying to get Unionism to stand up for and sell the union with GB. Or to 'engage' with the inevitable debate or get left behind and allow others to construct something they would have to go in to, if the day comes.

Of course they all 'see it' coming. They saw it 'coming' as far back as the AIA if you read some of the background to that.
Serious politicians are not naive.

Stop moaning ffs · 20-11-2019 5:57pm

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think he was doing what the article suggested...facing reality and trying to get Unionism to stand up for and sell the union with GB. Or to 'engage' with the inevitable debate or get left behind and allow others to construct something they would have to go in to, if the day comes.

Of course they all 'see it' coming. They saw it 'coming' as far back as the AIA if you read some of the background to that.
Serious politicians are not naive.

You just gave me a lightbulb moment.

I’d say they all see it coming and last two years they’re all doubling down hard as can be on ‘the union’ being sacred above all else even jobs and economy, but you wonder what their plan is for post brexit?
We all know Arlene and dup can pivot on a pins head but where too in the after? They’re already being called traitors in NI for agreeing to and enabling the border in the sea.

Remember this?

https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/dup-wont-budge-on-taoiseachs-allireland-brexit-talk-35085351.html

FrancieBrady · 20-11-2019 6:29pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You just gave me a lightbulb moment.

I’d say they all see it coming and last two years they’re all doubling down hard as can be on ‘the union’ being sacred above all else even jobs and economy, but you wonder what their plan is for post brexit?
We all know Arlene and dup can pivot on a pins head but where too in the after? They’re already being called traitors in NI for agreeing to and enabling the border in the sea.

Remember this?

https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/dup-wont-budge-on-taoiseachs-allireland-brexit-talk-35085351.html

TBH I think they saw an opportunity to get rid of/render useless the thing that they knew from day one, was a roadmap to a UI. The GFA.

And it all went tits up because of perfidious Albion to be equally honest.

Stop moaning ffs · 20-11-2019 6:36pm

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

TBH I think they saw an opportunity to get rid of/render useless the thing that they knew from day one, was a roadmap to a UI. The GFA.

And it all went tits up because of perfidious Albion to be equally honest.

They aren’t alone. Look at Emma de Souzas case. I don’t think this was british incompetence. They never implemented that part of the GFA cos it suited them. British civil service is the best in the world.
That said. It also looks like they want to jettison not the GFA but NI entirely. Absolve themselves of all responsibility of it.

It’s obviously and clearly backfired on the dup. They’re now trying to hide behind the GFA which they rejected all their political existence. But now a laughable shield For them in the change coming

How they still even have any voters is the gas part.

maccored · 20-11-2019 8:04pm

30-40 years

blanch152 wrote: »

Except the partitionists and the unionists, they need to be shouted down.

they need to be willing to have a discussion - rather than forcing their way on others (i think the DUP is a classic example - though your line of thinking in this thread also follows that)

Stop moaning ffs · 20-11-2019 8:09pm

10-15 years

Hands up if you didn’t know the UVF bombed pubs in Glasgow?
I didn’t

https://twitter.com/danielcollins85/status/1197148906452398081?s=21

BonnieSituation · 20-11-2019 9:19pm

20-30 years

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Hands up if you didn’t know the UVF bombed pubs in Glasgow?
I didn’t

https://twitter.com/danielcollins85/status/1197148906452398081?s=21

You're learning a lot today there guy.

I also happen to know Mr Collins and you could do worse than follow him.

Stop moaning ffs · 20-11-2019 9:36pm

10-15 years

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're learning a lot today there guy.

I also happen to know Mr Collins and you could do worse than follow him.

I’ve had lovely chats with him. He’s a bright one.
I’ll keep my own counsel on the rest though.

markodaly · 21-11-2019 12:04am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is a fairly tame and easy to make argument. I suppose it centres around some 4 green fields, Unionist free, comely catholic maidens 'dream'? Point us to what you mean here?

The impression from many posters online here is of that. I merely mentioned on thing that we may have to give up (re-join the commonwealth) and straight away posters were on the defensive.

And good lord, is every referendum now going to boiled down to a comparison to the shambolic Brexit one?
We have never conducted a referendum like 'the Brexit one' why would we start now?

I figure you were not old enough to remember the 1983 8th Ammendment so. I was and do remember that, and we lived its consequences for over 30 years. We are not immune to making the wrong decisions.
And dare I say, a UI is going to be much more complicated.

markodaly · 21-11-2019 12:10am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Has anyone disagree with that? As I've already stated, I'm a secularist and devout agnostic. Although.. if you consider the Protestant population in the south after partition they may have considered forced secularisation of schools as an attack on their religion? No?

Well, we did it a bit more cute down in the south. https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/many-mixed-marriage-couples-face-old-pressures-1.122902

Anyway, we in the South do not have secular publicly funded schools, quite the contrary. The vast majority of them have a Roman Catholic patronage, which has its problems.

In the North these problems are made worse by the sectarian nature of the population, thus divesting religious schools from public funds should be a prority. This is something both of us should be able to agree on easily.

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 12:25am

markodaly wrote: »

The impression from many posters online here is of that. I merely mentioned on thing that we may have to give up (re-join the commonwealth) and straight away posters were on the defensive.

I think there is a partitionist and Unionist 'dream' that they will get everything they want. They won't of course and they will have to be very persuasive to persuade the majority of a new republic to go back into an organisation with a monarch at it's head. But nobody will block them asking for it.

I figure you were not old enough to remember the 1983 8th Ammendment so. I was and do remember that, and we lived its consequences for over 30 years. We are not immune to making the wrong decisions.
And dare I say, a UI is going to be much more complicated.

I was 21 in 1983 and I too remember it well, I have no doubt if the same demographic were around today they would vote for it again. The information was all there for those who wanted it, which cannot be said about the Brexit shambles.

markodaly · 21-11-2019 12:27am

Schumi7 wrote: »

I've been reading the last 10 pages or so and a lot of the input on education has ranged from the ill-informed and perhaps well-meaning offerings from Blanch and yourself, to the more totalitarian leanings of the safely ignored facehugger.

I understand why you want to abolish parental choice, but there's a couple of obvious questions to ask from that:

i) Are you advocating that the state should acquire so-called religious schools through some sort of compulsory purchase scheme?

& ii) Why would people from the catholic tradition endorse a policy which would reduce the standard of education available for their children?

Just saw this now. In response to your questions.

1) I am advocating that state funding be withdrawn from schools that do not integrate and become multi-denominational.

2) First of all, research has shown that educational outcomes in the north is the worst on this Island, and in terms of the UK, comes near the bottom of the list as well. The standard of education in the north is not good at all.

Secondly, I believe that the state should not be perpertuating a system that does nothing to break down the older sectarian barriers of yester year. It is clear that the education system in the north is a major and direct contributor to that system. Breaking it up and giving state funding to schools backed by the IEF should be the way to go.

Now there's an oxymoron.

[/QUOTE]

markodaly · 21-11-2019 12:38am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No Dytalus not you.

There is no evidence that these schools are contributing to sectarianism in NI, which is coming from a fairly narrow base.
If these schools were the problem, sectarianism would be a far more widespread problem.

blanch's proposal is a kneejerk and draconian one, prevalent among those who haven't taken the time to look at the problem.

There absolutely is. I posted this a while back.

The two big issues with the sectarian nature of the north as recognised by academics are:
a) endogamy
b) seperate education

markodaly · 21-11-2019 12:43am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I was 21 in 1983 and I too remember it well, I have no doubt if the same demographic were around today they would vote for it again. The information was all there for those who wanted it, which cannot be said about the Brexit shambles.

In hindsight do you think that referendum was a good outcome for Ireland?

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 12:47am

markodaly wrote: »

There absolutely is. I posted this a while back.

The two big issues with the sectarian nature of the north as recognised by academics are:
a) endogamy
b) seperate education

Affecting 93% of students year in year out?

I don't think so Mark. Sectarianism is not endemic in northern Ireland although it is an abiding problem in certain quarters.
Maybe the fascistic controls might be applied first to organisations that are openly promoting it and indulging in it themselves.
If a political party or quasi religious order is promoting sectarian policies what would your plan be to deal with that?

FrancieBrady · 21-11-2019 12:50am

markodaly wrote: »

In hindsight do you think that referendum was a good outcome for Ireland?

No, it wasn't and plenty warned and informed about it. The information was there and for religious and moral reasons people ignored it.

The information about Brexit and what it meant simply wasn't available nor debate, which is why we can say we do referendums totally differently. WHICH was the point.

How long before Irish reunification?

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