Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

Graces7 · 02-09-2018 9:18am

Flying Fox wrote: »

It's not just about the oppression of women. The burka is a symbol of an extreme interpretation of islam, and that is frightening to people for obvious reasons. There are many people who will associate it with ISIS, rightly or wrongly.

and many who do not. associate it with isis I mean. a family shopping in dunne's with the woman fully veiled is no threat. in fact it is a mediatory aspect.

Sleeper12 · 02-09-2018 9:22am

steve-collins wrote:

100% im surprised no one has tried to rob a bank with one yet.

No one robs banks anymore as they are too secure. Tiger kidnapping is a different story

Malayalam · 02-09-2018 9:22am

I dislike them, have since I first saw them decades ago. They must be so damn uncomfortable. Have been in lots of places where the guys saunter ahead of their wives and they are wearing jeans and teeshirts and sunglasses, while the poor women straggle behind in the oppressive heat under a tent. If you look at the traditional dress of women from Islamic places all over the globe, they are often very beautiful. Sometimes there were masks, used occasionally, but very decorated and the eyes were visible and also decorated so that one could still see the women's beauty, and the masks often served a purpose such as protection against sand blowing. The various flowing scarves and so on of different Islamic cultures are gorgeous too, and the women even look like they have fun being creative with them. These black yokes are horrible, though. Yes they are sometimes voluntarily worn, but having seen more than my fair share of the inside of cults I can attest that women can be just as religiously/politically fervent and fanatical and often even more so than men. Also the whole modern moral relativistic attitude of ''It's their culture and who are we to say...etc.'' is a real cop out. Try that shyte with FGM, or child marriage, or spousal abuse, or enforced marital sex, etc. It seems reasonable to refuse permission for full facial coverings in public places.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-09-2018 9:23am

ireland.

Nudity prohibited even on private beaches. No burka ban.

France.

Plenty of nudity on private beaches and topless bathing on all beaches. Burka ban.

Apparently France is far right.

Listen, chumps. It’s really not far right to oppose a patriarchal system where women are wrapped up and covered entirely. There’s nothing liberal or feminist about the belief that while you wouldn’t do that to your girlfriend, sister, or white Irish people, it’s fine, it’s a choice for brown Irish people.

In fact why pretend to be liberal or feminist at all. You’re not.

This is separate to the debate about the banning, we don’t really ban headwear here.

There’s a lot of “ what’s wrong with the burka” on this thread.

Annasopra · 02-09-2018 9:25am

Pretzill wrote: »

Yes they should be banned Europe wide imo - it's oppressive, archaic and the reason they are worn as some pseudo protection of a women's modesty is ridiculous in the 21st century western world - when did we start going backwards?

Its equally opressive banning them.

timthumbni · 02-09-2018 9:31am

It always amazes me how many people make excuses for Islam and it’s stupid and outdated systems in particular towards its women. Christianity certainly has many faults too (well known now in Ireland regarding the child abuse/laundries scandals etc etc. But it is minor league in comparison to Islam.

The left trumpet on about woman’s rights and also lgbtaz rights but seem to forget about this issue when it comes to Islam. I have no idea why that it but it a very dangerous thing to do. There is no place in Ireland or western society for such practices. We need to progress, not regress.

cournioni · 02-09-2018 9:32am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

ireland.

Nudity prohibited even on private beaches. No burka ban.

France.

Plenty of nudity on private beaches and topless bathing on all beaches. Burka ban.

Apparently France is far right.

Listen, chumps. It’s really not far right to oppose a patriarchal system where women are wrapped up and covered entirely. There’s nothing liberal or feminist about the belief that while you wouldn’t do that to your girlfriend, sister, or white Irish people, it’s fine, it’s a choice for brown Irish people.

In fact why pretend to be liberal or feminist at all. You’re not.

This is separate to the debate about the banning, we don’t really ban headwear here.

There’s a lot of “ what’s wrong with the burka” on this thread.

Don’t you see? It’s all about being open to other people’s cultures and acceptance of all religions in a harmonious manner... all while trying to eradicate the Catholic Church from Ireland in every way shape and form. Yet they don’t see the contradiction.

blinding · 02-09-2018 9:32am

We are not allowed to go around in Balaclavas = for good reason .

Why are some people allowed to go around in a Burka / Niqab ?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-09-2018 9:33am

Malayalam wrote: »

I dislike them, have since I first saw them decades ago. They must be so damn uncomfortable. Have been in lots of places where the guys saunter ahead of their wives and they are wearing jeans and teeshirts and sunglasses, while the poor women straggle behind in the oppressive heat under a tent. If you look at the traditional dress of women from Islamic places all over the globe, they are often very beautiful. Sometimes there were masks, used occasionally, but very decorated and the eyes were visible and also decorated so that one could still see the women's beauty, and the masks often served a purpose such as protection against sand blowing. The various flowing scarves and so on of different Islamic cultures are gorgeous too, and the women even look like they have fun being creative with them. These black yokes are horrible, though. Yes they are sometimes voluntarily worn, but having seen more than my fair share of the inside of cults I can attest that women can be just as religiously/politically fervent and fanatical and often even more so than men. Also the whole modern moral relativistic attitude of ''It's their culture and who are we to say...etc.'' is a real cop out. Try that shyte with FGM, or child marriage, or spousal abuse, or enforced marital sex, etc. It seems reasonable to refuse permission for full facial coverings in public places.

Plenty of people do in fact justify FGM on that “it’s their culture” basis. Arguing that it’s a choice to wear a burka is a deflection: people brought up in historically ultra Christian societies often forgo their freedoms in what looked like “choice” but was dictated by the religion they were born to.

What gets me about some traditional dress (like the abaya in Saudi) is that’s its mandated as black in an extremely hot country. The men are in white.

cournioni · 02-09-2018 9:34am

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its equally opressive banning them.

How so?

Discodog · 02-09-2018 9:34am

timthumbni wrote: »

It always amazes me how many people make excuses for Islam and it’s stupid and outdated systems in particular towards its women. Christianity certainly has many faults too (well known now in Ireland regarding the child abuse/laundries scandals etc etc. But it is minor league in comparison to Islam.

The left trumpet on about woman’s rights and also lgbtaz rights but seem to forget about this issue when it comes to Islam. I have no idea why that it but it a very dangerous thing to do. There is no place in Ireland or western society for such practices. We need to progress, not regress.

You progress by educating not banning.

Pinch Flat · 02-09-2018 9:36am

blinding wrote: »

We are not allowed to go around in Balaclavas = for good reason .

Why are some people allowed to go around in a Burka / Niqab ?

I think because the first one is associated with criminality / bank robberies, the second one not so. Could be wrong though.

FTA69 · 02-09-2018 9:36am

Malayalam wrote: »

I dislike them, have since I first saw them decades ago. They must be so damn uncomfortable. Have been in lots of places where the guys saunter ahead of their wives and they are wearing jeans and teeshirts and sunglasses, while the poor women straggle behind in the oppressive heat under a tent. If you look at the traditional dress of women from Islamic places all over the globe, they are often very beautiful. Sometimes there were masks, used occasionally, but very decorated and the eyes were visible and also decorated so that one could still see the women's beauty, and the masks often served a purpose such as protection against sand blowing. The various flowing scarves and so on of different Islamic cultures are gorgeous too, and the women even look like they have fun being creative with them. These black yokes are horrible, though. Yes they are sometimes voluntarily worn, but having seen more than my fair share of the inside of cults I can attest that women can be just as religiously/politically fervent and fanatical and often even more so than men. Also the whole modern moral relativistic attitude of ''It's their culture and who are we to say...etc.'' is a real cop out. Try that shyte with FGM, or child marriage, or spousal abuse, or enforced marital sex, etc. It seems reasonable to refuse permission for full facial coverings in public places.

The problem with the "it's their culture argument" is 1) it isn't even the definition of Islamic culture and 2) what happens when feminist women in Iran get banged up for removing their scarf or videoing themselves dancing? Surely we would stand by women challenging a male dominated dictatorship? Unfortunately not for some eejits on the so called left.

That having been said, if you look at France and the U.K., the debate around the niqab etc has very little to do with liberating women or helping anyone - it's often politicians looking to score cheap political points and give Muslims a kicking because that can be a popular thing to do.

P_1 · 02-09-2018 9:37am

Yes, along with crucifixes, stars of David and all other religious paraphernalia

Thestones · 02-09-2018 9:38am

Yes should be banned, like another poster says you see the men swanning around in jeans and tshirts in the modern clothing but the women still have to wear tents! Why don't the men wear traditional clothing aswell? It's such BS! On a side note I was in sandymount recently on a lovely hot day during the summer wearing a short dress while walking with my husband, came across a Muslim family and the woman literally looked me up and down, clearly judging me for wearing a short dress, this boils my blood, how dare these people come to our country and judge women on what they wear, I'll wear whatever the f*** I want in my own country. If they don't like western culture they shouldn't be here, adapt or leave, like we would have to in their country.

Tokyo · 02-09-2018 9:40am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Saying “as a personal choice” there is fairly meaningless. Women in Ireland used to go to church as a personal choice but that’s still condemned, in retrospect, as patriarchal.

And yet I don't see people standing outside churches as headscarved old women go to mass, denouncing it as a tool of oppression?

Whether you care to see it or not, for many Muslim women, it is a personal choice, for reasons of their own choosing.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Do you want this for all women? If not, why then for some.

But the thing is, that's not what I said. I didn't say I wanted (some) women to wear the burka/hijab/niqab. What I said was that I wanted them to have the choice to wear it, if that was what they wished. People are crying out that forcing a woman who doesn't want to wear this garment to wear one is oppression? Surely that argument should work both ways then, no?

Discodog · 02-09-2018 9:40am

We should ban one faith schools & remove any religious ceremony from schools. But we should teach children about all religions & give them the confidence to challenge & decide what they want in adult life.

Edgware · 02-09-2018 9:41am

While we are at it lets ban families taking their daughters from school at 16 and marrying their cousins, then dropping kids for the next 20 years while living in a caravan on welfare

cournioni · 02-09-2018 9:41am

Discodog wrote: »

You progress by educating not banning.

What way will you be educating them?

FTA69 · 02-09-2018 9:42am

Thestones wrote: »

Yes should be banned, like another poster says you see the men swanning around in jeans and tshirts in the modern clothing but the women still have to wear tents! Why don't the men wear traditional clothing aswell? It's such BS! On a side note I was in sandymount recently on a lovely hot day during the summer wearing a short dress while walking with my husband, came across a Muslim family and the woman literally looked me up and down, clearly judging me for wearing a short dress, this boils my blood, how dare these people come to our country and judge women on what they wear, I'll wear whatever the f*** I want in my own country. If they don't like western culture they shouldn't be here, adapt or leave, like we would have to in their country.

My Nan would probably eyeball you for wearing a short dress as well. Wouldn't say we should ban her from Waterford though.

Conservatism isn't unique to Muslims.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-09-2018 9:43am

Discodog wrote: »

You progress by educating not banning.

What’s that mean? Are you hoping for an Irish education system that attacks conservative Muslim dress?

cournioni · 02-09-2018 9:43am

Discodog wrote: »

We should ban one faith schools & remove any religious ceremony from schools. But we should teach children about all religions & give them the confidence to challenge & decide what they want in adult life.

What makes you think that this is the right thing to do? Why are you right and religious people wrong?

Before you say it I’m not a religious person. I just find your point of view a little far fetched, and quite arrogant.

Malayalam · 02-09-2018 9:44am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Plenty of people do in fact justify FGM on that “it’s their culture” basis. Arguing that it’s a choice to wear a burka is a deflection: people brought up in historically ultra Christian societies often forgo their freedoms in what looked like “choice” but was dictated by the religion they were born to.

What gets me about some traditional dress (like the abaya in Saudi) is that’s its mandated as black in an extremely hot country. The men are in white.

Yeah, I know re FGM. I don't understand this cultural relativism thing when there is obvious abuse going on. Long long before all this stuff surfaced and people became scared stiff to say anything about extremist theocratical practices I witnessed some of that culture from the inside. As a hitch hiker in Turkey in the 1980s, for example, I saw women whipped from their beds, literally lashed and slapped at in their homes, to get up in the middle of the night to cook food, or bring drink or make up extra beds for pals. There were mostly noble good high-minded people who would never dream of mistreating their women folk, but the cultural norms enabled that portion of assholes, degenerates and retards that every society has to act out their brutality with free reign and religious and societal justification

suicide_circus · 02-09-2018 9:45am

banning would just make them a subversive mark of defiance and make the women prosecuted into martyrs.

there is no doubt that they are absolutely f*cked up and a tool for the subjugation of women but some clever imams have marketed them as a symbol of liberation for Muslim women and i just dont see banning as the answer.

blinding · 02-09-2018 9:46am

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I think because the first one is associated with criminality / bank robberies, the second one not so. Could be wrong though.

A criminal that shot a Police woman in England used a burka as part of his efforts to escape Police hunting him .

A woman in London used a Burka to hide her identity as she followed a woman and then sprayed that woman with acid .

A terrorist used a burka to escape a mosque that was being watched by authorities .

These are three that I know of off the top of my head .

The Burka was a highly dangerous security risk in these three situations .

I suppose it will only be when some far right group use burkas to hide themselves ( possibly to attack muslims ) that this crazy Burka security threat will be stopped .

Beechwoodspark · 02-09-2018 9:46am

all the anti Christian/catholic posters of boards must be really really Reallllly against Islam as it is even more anti women. Different league entirely

timthumbni · 02-09-2018 9:48am

Re education If you look at Islamic schools in England you will see just how progressive they are.

Unless you think that killling infidels (ie. ourselves) and throwing gay people off the roof is progressive of course.

blinding · 02-09-2018 9:48am

Edgware wrote: »

While we are at it lets ban families taking their daughters from school at 16 and marrying their cousins, then dropping kids for the next 20 years while living in a caravan on welfare

And some people say women have it hard . Obviously they are having hard some of the time .

cournioni · 02-09-2018 9:48am

suicide_circus wrote: »

banning would just make them a subversive mark of defiance and make the women prosecuted into martyrs.

there is no doubt that they are absolutely f*cked up and a tool for the subjugation of women but i just dont see banning as the answer.

I think all clothing that doesn’t allow reasonable identification of a person in public should be banned. The hijab is fine, the niqab and burqua not fine.

zapitastas · 02-09-2018 9:49am

blinding wrote: »

Is that ok for suicide bombs like the guy at the Arianna Grande Concert ?

Was the person that carried out that attack wearing a Burka or just carrying a backpack?

blinding · 02-09-2018 9:50am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

all the anti Christian/catholic posters of boards must be really really Reallllly against Islam as it is even more anti women. Different league entirely

They are scared of Islam because they don’t want to be thrown off buildings . Violence works for Islam .

blinding · 02-09-2018 9:51am

zapitastas wrote: »

Was the person that carried out that attack wearing a Burka or just carrying a backpack?

I’m guessing he wouldn’t have been against wearing a suicide bomb for fashion reasons .:eek:

suicide_circus · 02-09-2018 9:51am

cournioni wrote: »

I think all clothing that doesn’t allow reasonable identification of a person in public should be banned. The hijab is fine, the niqab and burqua not fine.

the danger is that banning could lead to consequences far worse for society than a few women being unidentifiable. I don't know. let's watch France and Denmark for a while and see what happens there.

TheQuietFella · 02-09-2018 9:54am

They would be more in line by banning the beggars and tramps that frequent the city and harass the general populous!

timthumbni · 02-09-2018 9:54am

suicide_circus wrote: »

cournioni wrote: »

I think all clothing that doesn’t allow reasonable identification of a person in public should be banned. The hijab is fine, the niqab and burqua not fine.

the danger is that banning could lead to consequences far worse for society than a few women being unidentifiable. I don't know. let's watch France and Denmark for a while and see what happens there.

What consequences?

blinding · 02-09-2018 9:54am

suicide_circus wrote: »

the danger is that banning could lead to consequences far worse for society than a few women being unidentifiable. I don't know. let's watch France and Denmark for a while and see what happens there.

Will the muslims use violence ?

Violence works for Islam .

It kinda goes against that Mantra ....Violence doesn’t work .

Islam makes short work of that mantra .

theballz · 02-09-2018 9:55am

RustyNut wrote: »

So you think the Muslim way is right? People should only be able to dress the way the government say? I'd prefer to let people choose to wear whatever they want.

If we are going to ban certain people wearing certain items of clothing then I propose that we ban obviously non sporting people from wearing track suits.

Fairly silly comparison right there.

The religion of peace and love, telling you to behead those who insult it. Women can't wear bikinis in their countries so no burqas in ours they don't integrate anyway it's against the Koran they will always find something to give out about

Hijab is fine in my opinion, like any turban or nun’s habit. The burqa is not required or even advised in the quran, only modesty and headscarves. Not covering the face. It’s an old cultural practice, similar to women wearing corsets. It isn’t necessary and comes from sexist expectations. These feel like if they are not covered then they won’t go outside! That’s perverse! How is that freedom? It’s clearly sexist bullsh*t and yet people keep defending it - generally they just don’t understand it

suicide_circus · 02-09-2018 9:57am

timthumbni wrote: »

What consequences?

the consequence of making ourselves an authoritarian society. maybe the thing we ban next is something you love. I think the government should tell people what to do as little as possible.

blinding · 02-09-2018 9:57am

timthumbni wrote: »

What consequences?

The Muslims will use the threat of violence and violence to get their way .

These two keep so many that would be critical of Islam , Schtum .

If other organisations or churchs had the practices of Islam the usual suspects would be critically all over it . Islam's violence keeps these hypocrites Schtum .

02-09-2018 9:58am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Actually there are laws on what you can’t wear. Like wearing nothing is illegal for instance. Dressing as a cop. Probably more.

Can you point me to the law that states being naked is illegal please?
Also dressing as a guard is not illegal, maybe you mean impersonating one?

Wibbs · 02-09-2018 9:59am

Discodog wrote: »

You progress by educating not banning.

What does that even mean? It sounds great as a comforting soundbite but it has little value behind it. Tell me: How do you "educate" against a 1500 year old set of codes that have proven themselves extremely resilient and fault tolerant that will resist such "education" from any source it sees as a threat? You're applying a post Reformation Western worldview onto something that is very different and it's at best naive, at worst bloody dangerous.

Oh sure go back a few years and places like Iran and Afghanistan some women threw off the headscarfs in a brief hint at modernism. But here's another hint; it didn't last very long did it?

So I say yes, ban them. If someone doesn't want to adhere to the codes and mores of Western culture then they should not be encouraged in flaunting their dissent.

blinding · 02-09-2018 10:00am

bubblypop wrote: »

Can you point me to the law that states being naked is illegal please?
Also dressing as a guard is not illegal, maybe you mean impersonating one?

Try being naked in O’Connell street .

Wibbs · 02-09-2018 10:03am

suicide_circus wrote: »

the danger is that banning could lead to consequences far worse for society than a few women being unidentifiable. I don't know. let's watch France and Denmark for a while and see what happens there.

Indeed SC and this is a symptom of the failure of the experiment in "multiculturalism". Fear. When a society is afraid of an alien minority that blatantly advertises its intolerance to that society to the degree that it pussyfoots around actually confronting it, that society is weak.

dav3 · 02-09-2018 10:07am

I'm not sure how banning things in only one county in Ireland will work.

But f*ck it why not. Ban everything in Dublin, including the OP who is a fraud and a bullsh*tter.

suicide_circus · 02-09-2018 10:09am

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed SC and this is a symptom of the failure of the experiment in "multiculturalism". Fear. When a society is afraid of an alien minority that blatantly advertises its intolerance to that society to the degree that it pussyfoots around actually confronting it, that society is weak.

I'm fearing what we would have become rather than violence, although that can't be ruled out. that's how they really win, is it not? by turning us into them.

cournioni · 02-09-2018 10:09am

suicide_circus wrote: »

the consequence of making ourselves an authoritarian society. maybe the thing we ban next is something you love. I think the government should tell people what to do as little as possible.

That’s all well and good, but allowing a garment that covers up identifiable features just because of their culture or religion is just as dangerous. What makes them any different from an avid motorcyclist who likes to wear their helmet into shops?

Creating one rule for one person and another for a person just based on their religion is absolutely wrong. The whole pastafarian thing summed it up nicely.

Sardine · 02-09-2018 10:11am

Travellers treat women like dirt yet all we do is give them money and houses. Why not focus on them instead, an issue that is actually affecting irish citizens?

Wibbs · 02-09-2018 10:12am

mike_ie wrote: »

And yet I don't see people standing outside churches as headscarves old women go to mass, denouncing it as a tool of oppression? Whether you care to see it or not, for many Muslim women, it is a personal choice, for reasons of their own choosing.

No, it's a cultural choice. One that is reinforced from the cradle. Those who choose not to follow that cultural choice are the minority and one that is regularly punished for it. Old women wearing headscarves for mass is again a cultural choice, but in a culture that was capable of change. Hence it's only the old - and few enough of them - who hang on to that.

But the thing is, that's not what I said. I didn't say I wanted (some) women to wear the burka/hijab/niqab. What I said was that I wanted them to have the choice to wear it, if that was what they wished. People are crying out that forcing a woman who doesn't want to wear this garment to wear one is oppression? Surely that argument should work both ays then, no?

That's a silly argument. As I point out it's a cultural choice. Secondly we "oppress" individual choice all the time through our codes of law and cultural and social norms.

beertons · 02-09-2018 10:12am

Yes, they should be banned here.

suicide_circus · 02-09-2018 10:13am

listen lads, I agree that the multiculturalism experiment in europe has utterly failed and perhaps strong stances such as banning the Burka are the only solution I really don't know.

Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

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