Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

Pinch Flat

cournioni wrote: »

Must get out the old balaclava for a doddle about. Might call into my bank on the way.

Have many people held up an Irish bank wearing a hijab?

cournioni

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Have many people held up an Irish bank wearing a hijab?

Wouldn’t be very clever doing it with a hijab tbh.

Pinch Flat

cournioni wrote: »

Must get out the old balaclava for a doddle about. Might call into my bank on the way.

Have many people held up an Irish bank wearing a hijab?

Franz Von Peppercorn

mike_ie wrote: »

I'm not sure how a law forbidding the burka/niqab/hijab is any less oppressive than requiring them.

In the end it comes down to mixing culture, religion and oppression into this one homogenous lump. While I agree that religion (of all flavours) has certainly been manipulated as a tool of oppression, that's not always the case, and plenty of Muslim women do wear the hijab/niqab as a personal choice to express their faith, rather than being forced into doing so - whether you agree with their personal beliefs is an entirely different matter. And for what it's worth, there are plenty of environments where Muslim women are asked to remove them for security purposes and do so willingly - airports and banks in many parts of the world are just two examples.

I would imagine that if you are being forced into wearing something as a control mechanism, the problem is not the hijab, the problem is being married to someone who is possessive and oppressive.

Saying “as a personal choice” there is fairly meaningless. Women in Ireland used to go to church as a personal choice but that’s still condemned, in retrospect, as patriarchal.

I wouldn’t ban the burka either but defending it as normal or as a choice shows how cultural relativist the modern left is.

Do you want this for all women? If not, why then for some.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Xenophobic incels seem to get wound up by them

Cultural relativists who think brown women should have their face hidden, but not white women, are enthused by them.

(Excuse me a while. I have some early morning shagging to do).

cournioni

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Have many people held up an Irish bank wearing a hijab?

Like I said, wouldn’t be very clever holding up a bank in a hijab. A burqua or a niqab would be better options.

Discodog

Skinhead Kane wrote: »

Greetings guys and girls,

I have been thinking about this topic for quite some time now and have yet to make a real judgement on what truly would be a correct answer. If were to go to a country populated by the Muslim community we would be asked to cover up and follow their religious procedure.

Therefore in Britain and Ireland I believe we are within our rights to ban something that isolates woman and was made by men to oppress them. If I were to show my hair/head in their countries, I would be seen as obscene.

Recently came back from a trip and had some female friends been told by locals to cover their arms and legs as well as hair before entering out of the city centre areas. It was a very aggressive approach to and almost demanded 'or we leave the country' type of attitude. Now not using this as a reason or motive to make this topic, but it has however got me thinking.

If I could vote on it, I would ban burqas and possibly hijab.


What's your take on this guys?

Regards,

Sk

Very appropriate user name.

Thankfully Ireland won't join the extremist, right wing, movements that are growing in Europe.

Franz Von Peppercorn

bubblypop wrote: »

Lol, do you think balaclavas are illegal ?
Thankfully there are no such laws in Ireland, dictating what people can & cannot wear.

Actually there are laws on what you can’t wear. Like wearing nothing is illegal for instance. Dressing as a cop. Probably more.

It's not just about the oppression of women. The burka is a symbol of an extreme interpretation of islam, and that is frightening to people for obvious reasons. There are many people who will associate it with ISIS, rightly or wrongly.

blinding

zapitastas wrote: »

What someone chooses to wear should be none of your concern.

Is that ok for suicide bombs like the guy at the Arianna Grande Concert ?

Graces7

Flying Fox wrote: »

It's not just about the oppression of women. The burka is a symbol of an extreme interpretation of islam, and that is frightening to people for obvious reasons. There are many people who will associate it with ISIS, rightly or wrongly.

and many who do not. associate it with isis I mean. a family shopping in dunne's with the woman fully veiled is no threat. in fact it is a mediatory aspect.

Sleeper12

steve-collins wrote:

100% im surprised no one has tried to rob a bank with one yet.

No one robs banks anymore as they are too secure. Tiger kidnapping is a different story

Malayalam

I dislike them, have since I first saw them decades ago. They must be so damn uncomfortable. Have been in lots of places where the guys saunter ahead of their wives and they are wearing jeans and teeshirts and sunglasses, while the poor women straggle behind in the oppressive heat under a tent. If you look at the traditional dress of women from Islamic places all over the globe, they are often very beautiful. Sometimes there were masks, used occasionally, but very decorated and the eyes were visible and also decorated so that one could still see the women's beauty, and the masks often served a purpose such as protection against sand blowing. The various flowing scarves and so on of different Islamic cultures are gorgeous too, and the women even look like they have fun being creative with them. These black yokes are horrible, though. Yes they are sometimes voluntarily worn, but having seen more than my fair share of the inside of cults I can attest that women can be just as religiously/politically fervent and fanatical and often even more so than men. Also the whole modern moral relativistic attitude of ''It's their culture and who are we to say...etc.'' is a real cop out. Try that shyte with FGM, or child marriage, or spousal abuse, or enforced marital sex, etc. It seems reasonable to refuse permission for full facial coverings in public places.

Franz Von Peppercorn

ireland.

Nudity prohibited even on private beaches. No burka ban.

France.

Plenty of nudity on private beaches and topless bathing on all beaches. Burka ban.

Apparently France is far right.

Listen, chumps. It’s really not far right to oppose a patriarchal system where women are wrapped up and covered entirely. There’s nothing liberal or feminist about the belief that while you wouldn’t do that to your girlfriend, sister, or white Irish people, it’s fine, it’s a choice for brown Irish people.

In fact why pretend to be liberal or feminist at all. You’re not.

This is separate to the debate about the banning, we don’t really ban headwear here.

There’s a lot of “ what’s wrong with the burka” on this thread.

Annasopra

Pretzill wrote: »

Yes they should be banned Europe wide imo - it's oppressive, archaic and the reason they are worn as some pseudo protection of a women's modesty is ridiculous in the 21st century western world - when did we start going backwards?

Its equally opressive banning them.

timthumbni

It always amazes me how many people make excuses for Islam and it’s stupid and outdated systems in particular towards its women. Christianity certainly has many faults too (well known now in Ireland regarding the child abuse/laundries scandals etc etc. But it is minor league in comparison to Islam.

The left trumpet on about woman’s rights and also lgbtaz rights but seem to forget about this issue when it comes to Islam. I have no idea why that it but it a very dangerous thing to do. There is no place in Ireland or western society for such practices. We need to progress, not regress.

cournioni

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

ireland.

Nudity prohibited even on private beaches. No burka ban.

France.

Plenty of nudity on private beaches and topless bathing on all beaches. Burka ban.

Apparently France is far right.

Listen, chumps. It’s really not far right to oppose a patriarchal system where women are wrapped up and covered entirely. There’s nothing liberal or feminist about the belief that while you wouldn’t do that to your girlfriend, sister, or white Irish people, it’s fine, it’s a choice for brown Irish people.

In fact why pretend to be liberal or feminist at all. You’re not.

This is separate to the debate about the banning, we don’t really ban headwear here.

There’s a lot of “ what’s wrong with the burka” on this thread.

Don’t you see? It’s all about being open to other people’s cultures and acceptance of all religions in a harmonious manner... all while trying to eradicate the Catholic Church from Ireland in every way shape and form. Yet they don’t see the contradiction.

blinding

We are not allowed to go around in Balaclavas = for good reason .

Why are some people allowed to go around in a Burka / Niqab ?

Franz Von Peppercorn

Malayalam wrote: »

I dislike them, have since I first saw them decades ago. They must be so damn uncomfortable. Have been in lots of places where the guys saunter ahead of their wives and they are wearing jeans and teeshirts and sunglasses, while the poor women straggle behind in the oppressive heat under a tent. If you look at the traditional dress of women from Islamic places all over the globe, they are often very beautiful. Sometimes there were masks, used occasionally, but very decorated and the eyes were visible and also decorated so that one could still see the women's beauty, and the masks often served a purpose such as protection against sand blowing. The various flowing scarves and so on of different Islamic cultures are gorgeous too, and the women even look like they have fun being creative with them. These black yokes are horrible, though. Yes they are sometimes voluntarily worn, but having seen more than my fair share of the inside of cults I can attest that women can be just as religiously/politically fervent and fanatical and often even more so than men. Also the whole modern moral relativistic attitude of ''It's their culture and who are we to say...etc.'' is a real cop out. Try that shyte with FGM, or child marriage, or spousal abuse, or enforced marital sex, etc. It seems reasonable to refuse permission for full facial coverings in public places.

Plenty of people do in fact justify FGM on that “it’s their culture” basis. Arguing that it’s a choice to wear a burka is a deflection: people brought up in historically ultra Christian societies often forgo their freedoms in what looked like “choice” but was dictated by the religion they were born to.

What gets me about some traditional dress (like the abaya in Saudi) is that’s its mandated as black in an extremely hot country. The men are in white.

cournioni

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its equally opressive banning them.

How so?

Discodog

timthumbni wrote: »

It always amazes me how many people make excuses for Islam and it’s stupid and outdated systems in particular towards its women. Christianity certainly has many faults too (well known now in Ireland regarding the child abuse/laundries scandals etc etc. But it is minor league in comparison to Islam.

The left trumpet on about woman’s rights and also lgbtaz rights but seem to forget about this issue when it comes to Islam. I have no idea why that it but it a very dangerous thing to do. There is no place in Ireland or western society for such practices. We need to progress, not regress.

You progress by educating not banning.

Pinch Flat

blinding wrote: »

We are not allowed to go around in Balaclavas = for good reason .

Why are some people allowed to go around in a Burka / Niqab ?

I think because the first one is associated with criminality / bank robberies, the second one not so. Could be wrong though.

FTA69

Malayalam wrote: »

I dislike them, have since I first saw them decades ago. They must be so damn uncomfortable. Have been in lots of places where the guys saunter ahead of their wives and they are wearing jeans and teeshirts and sunglasses, while the poor women straggle behind in the oppressive heat under a tent. If you look at the traditional dress of women from Islamic places all over the globe, they are often very beautiful. Sometimes there were masks, used occasionally, but very decorated and the eyes were visible and also decorated so that one could still see the women's beauty, and the masks often served a purpose such as protection against sand blowing. The various flowing scarves and so on of different Islamic cultures are gorgeous too, and the women even look like they have fun being creative with them. These black yokes are horrible, though. Yes they are sometimes voluntarily worn, but having seen more than my fair share of the inside of cults I can attest that women can be just as religiously/politically fervent and fanatical and often even more so than men. Also the whole modern moral relativistic attitude of ''It's their culture and who are we to say...etc.'' is a real cop out. Try that shyte with FGM, or child marriage, or spousal abuse, or enforced marital sex, etc. It seems reasonable to refuse permission for full facial coverings in public places.

The problem with the "it's their culture argument" is 1) it isn't even the definition of Islamic culture and 2) what happens when feminist women in Iran get banged up for removing their scarf or videoing themselves dancing? Surely we would stand by women challenging a male dominated dictatorship? Unfortunately not for some eejits on the so called left.

That having been said, if you look at France and the U.K., the debate around the niqab etc has very little to do with liberating women or helping anyone - it's often politicians looking to score cheap political points and give Muslims a kicking because that can be a popular thing to do.

P_1

Yes, along with crucifixes, stars of David and all other religious paraphernalia

Thestones

Yes should be banned, like another poster says you see the men swanning around in jeans and tshirts in the modern clothing but the women still have to wear tents! Why don't the men wear traditional clothing aswell? It's such BS! On a side note I was in sandymount recently on a lovely hot day during the summer wearing a short dress while walking with my husband, came across a Muslim family and the woman literally looked me up and down, clearly judging me for wearing a short dress, this boils my blood, how dare these people come to our country and judge women on what they wear, I'll wear whatever the f*** I want in my own country. If they don't like western culture they shouldn't be here, adapt or leave, like we would have to in their country.

Tokyo

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Saying “as a personal choice” there is fairly meaningless. Women in Ireland used to go to church as a personal choice but that’s still condemned, in retrospect, as patriarchal.

And yet I don't see people standing outside churches as headscarved old women go to mass, denouncing it as a tool of oppression? Whether you care to see it or not, for many Muslim women, it is a personal choice, for reasons of their own choosing.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Do you want this for all women? If not, why then for some.

But the thing is, that's not what I said. I didn't say I wanted (some) women to wear the burka/hijab/niqab. What I said was that I wanted them to have the choice to wear it, if that was what they wished. People are crying out that forcing a woman who doesn't want to wear this garment to wear one is oppression? Surely that argument should work both ways then, no?

Discodog

We should ban one faith schools & remove any religious ceremony from schools. But we should teach children about all religions & give them the confidence to challenge & decide what they want in adult life.

Edgware

While we are at it lets ban families taking their daughters from school at 16 and marrying their cousins, then dropping kids for the next 20 years while living in a caravan on welfare

cournioni

Discodog wrote: »

You progress by educating not banning.

What way will you be educating them?

FTA69

Thestones wrote: »

Yes should be banned, like another poster says you see the men swanning around in jeans and tshirts in the modern clothing but the women still have to wear tents! Why don't the men wear traditional clothing aswell? It's such BS! On a side note I was in sandymount recently on a lovely hot day during the summer wearing a short dress while walking with my husband, came across a Muslim family and the woman literally looked me up and down, clearly judging me for wearing a short dress, this boils my blood, how dare these people come to our country and judge women on what they wear, I'll wear whatever the f*** I want in my own country. If they don't like western culture they shouldn't be here, adapt or leave, like we would have to in their country.

My Nan would probably eyeball you for wearing a short dress as well. Wouldn't say we should ban her from Waterford though.

Conservatism isn't unique to Muslims.