Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

Try_harder

Iran was quite free til the West supported a regime change

Discodog

Wibbs wrote: »

What does that even mean? It sounds great as a comforting soundbite but it has little value behind it. Tell me: How do you "educate" against a 1500 year old set of codes that have proven themselves extremely resilient and fault tolerant that will resist such "education" from any source it sees as a threat? You're applying a post Reformation Western worldview onto something that is very different and it's at best naive, at worst bloody dangerous.

Oh sure go back a few years and places like Iran and Afghanistan some women threw off the headscarfs in a brief hint at modernism. But here's another hint; it didn't last very long did it?

So I say yes, ban them. If someone doesn't want to adhere to the codes and mores of Western culture then they should not be encouraged in flaunting their dissent.

So would you adopt the French model ? If so then every religious symbol has to be removed from every school. Why is it dangerous to allow people to wear what they want ?

blinding

Would you be happy if everyone bar you was wearing a Burka .

Why should one section of society be allowed to do what another section of society can’t .

Would men be allowed to wear a burka ?

Try_harder

Try_harder wrote: »

Women aren't treated as objects in the west???

Well, it depends on what you consider being treated as an object. What do you define it as? I'm guessing it's a pretty broad perception.

And for my own perception, then I would say that many women are treated as objects, and in 'many' cases, those women sought to be treated that way. Perhaps they wished to be sexual objects because of the rather obvious benefits (financial, security, excitement, popularity, etc) that come with living that way.

But the idea that "women" in Ireland (or the west) are treated as objects in the same manner as in Islamic countries is beyond retarded. Any woman in Ireland has the same legal rights as any man. They have the ability to demand respect as a person from the law. They're protected from discrimination under the law, and even, within social/cultural perspectives. You won't find that in Islamic countries.

The fact is that women in the west have far more choice in how they want to live, and how they will be perceived by others (based on their own choices regarding clothes, appearance, work, etc) than the vast majority of countries in the world.. And in many ways, their spectrum of choice is greater to that of men. Choices/decisions in life have consequences.

Yer Da sells Avon

blinding wrote: »

Would you be happy if everyone bar you was wearing a Burka .

Being unhappy about something and wanting it to be made illegal are two completely different things.

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

I wouldn't ban the burqa but I would ban Muslim schools & catholic schools. Millions of Muslims don't wear the burqa or hijab. They make up their own mind because, like ever other religion, Islam is open to interpretation.

Actually, no... Islam is not open to interpretation. The fact that Islam can be broken up into hundreds of groups with different interpretations of what the Koran (or Mohammad) says, and how these people apply that perception, doesn't even remotely suggest that Islam is an open religion for interpretation, or behavior. AND There are plenty of passages in the Koran or made by Mohammad which are very exact, and there is no room for personal interpretation. Thieves should have their hands cut off. There is no leeway.

For every group that is relaxed about Islamic rules, you will find five which are far more strict for both themselves, and for how those external to their group should behave.

Children should be taught about world religions & their customs. Then they can make up their own minds.

Indeed they should... however, parents have a far greater influence in determining the choice on religion than schools. How do you factor that in?

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, no... Islam is not open to interpretation. The fact that Islam can be broken up into hundreds of groups with different interpretations of what the Koran (or Mohammad) says, and how these people apply that perception, doesn't even remotely suggest that Islam is an open religion for interpretation, or behavior. AND There are plenty of passages in the Koran or made by Mohammad which are very exact, and there is no room for personal interpretation. Thieves should have their hands cut off. There is no leeway.

For every group that is relaxed about Islamic rules, you will find five which are far more strict for both themselves, and for how those external to their group should behave.



Indeed they should... however, parents have a far greater influence in determining the choice on religion than schools. How do you factor that in?

I know Muslims that don't even attend the mosque, let alone wear the burqa. All religions have different levels. There are some fanatical christians that are every bit as dangerous as radical muslims. I always thought that Buddhism was fairly innocuous until the radical Buddists started murdering Rohinga.

If the parents know that how their child will be educated they can decide if Ireland is for them. It would naturally filter out the more radical of all religions.

Mutant z

They are security hazards and for that alone they should be banned and its nothing to do with culture but to control women, its also nothing to do with protecting your face from the sand otherwise men would also wear them, its about a hostile culture showing its utter contempt for a more civilised one.

riffmongous

timthumbni wrote: »

Union flag you mean. A jack is ones that are on ships. Sashes are rarely worn nowadays by orange men. They wear collarettes mostly. Deflection is becoming a habit for you.

And I’m still very interested on exactly what forum on here you are a mod. I would assume there wasn’t any other volunteers.....

Are you happy to defend outdated and sadistic Islamic practices or just happy to have a dig at the brits again.?

Yeah I think everyone's heard that before a few times now but everyone still calls it the union jack don't they.

I'm just an ordinary poster here timmy like everyone else, if you don't like what I post either report it or get over it

Option 2 definitely, when our resident backward ideology supporters come out so strongly in favour of banning another backwards ideology it's hard to just ignore it

Mutant z

BTW its not up to Dublin but the whole country to enforce such a ban Dublin doesn't have the power to do anything but Ireland as a country certainly has.

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

I know Muslims that don't even attend the mosque, let alone wear the burqa.

And can you estimate what percentage compared to the overall population of Muslims would behave that way? 1%, 5%, etc?

And where are they from? Their own cultural background determines the extent in which they apply those behaviors. There are many forms of Islam, and the application of different traditions. You make the case that there are many kinds of Muslims or different interpretations, but then lump them together in this post.

All religions have different levels. There are some fanatical christians that are every bit as dangerous as radical muslims. I always thought that Buddhism was fairly innocuous until the radical Buddists started murdering Rohinga.

And? What? Comparisons with extremists in Catholicism has no relevance. We're not talking about extremists.

If the parents know that how their child will be educated they can decide if Ireland is for them. It would naturally filter out the more radical of all religions.

Radical Islam won't care, one way or another. We're not discussing those who follow radical/extreme Islam. We're talking about Islam in general.

And the fact is that the majority of Muslims coming into Europe are not seeking to embrace western culture. They're coming for economic reasons. There is no view that their own original culture is wrong... and so, why would they encourage a different view in their children, simply because they're in Ireland?

coffee_cake

I'm surprised to see hijabs brought up, they're just headscarves. Irish women wore them for many years.
Some of them are really pretty looking as well!

Discodog

So ban the burqa but keep this legal ?

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

So ban the burqa but keep this legal ?

So you would favor banning all of it?

I certainly would.

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

And can you estimate what percentage compared to the overall population of Muslims would behave that way? 1%, 5%, etc?

And where are they from? Their own cultural background determines the extent in which they apply those behaviors. There are many forms of Islam, and the application of different traditions. You make the case that there are many kinds of Muslims or different interpretations, but then lump them together in this post.



And? What? Comparisons with extremists in Catholicism has no relevance. We're not talking about extremists.



Radical Islam won't care, one way or another. We're not discussing those who follow radical/extreme Islam. We're talking about Islam in general.

And the fact is that the majority of Muslims coming into Europe are not seeking to embrace western culture. They're coming for economic reasons. There is no view that their own original culture is wrong... and so, why would they encourage a different view in their children, simply because they're in Ireland?

So we ban a garment that only a microscopic number in Ireland wear & still allow hoodies, baseball caps, balaclavas etc :rolleyes:

However, the 1,900 figure is reportedly a significant over-inflation of the initial figures released by the French secret service, who were charged with collecting this data. It originally found that only 367 women wore the burqa. This represents an even lower percentage of the population: 0.01% of the French Muslim population, and 0.00058% of the general population

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/what-is-the-burqa-and-how-many-muslim-women-actually-wear-it/

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

So we ban a garment that only a microscopic number in Ireland wear & still allow hoodies, baseball caps, balaclavas etc :rolleyes:

Except that I didn't make that statement. You're reaching. Perhaps deal with what I have written?

However, the 1,900 figure is reportedly a significant over-inflation of the initial figures released by the French secret service, who were charged with collecting this data. It originally found that only 367 women wore the burqa. This represents an even lower percentage of the population: 0.01% of the French Muslim population, and 0.00058% of the general population

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/what-is-the-burqa-and-how-many-muslim-women-actually-wear-it/

So... the population is low, so we shouldn't discuss it?

And the fact is that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. I'm amazed at the short-sighted viewpoints here. They are a minority now, and likely will remain a minority, however, I have stated previously why I feel it should be banned.... perhaps take a look and deal with that?

Wibbs

Discodog wrote: »

So would you adopt the French model ? If so then every religious symbol has to be removed from every school. Why is it dangerous to allow people to wear what they want ?

I would follow the French model. Get shot of all of it. And it's little enough to do with "wearing what they want". Their "choice" to not wear it is limited within that culture, the wearing of it is a clear cultural and political statement about that culture. We're not talking jokey tee shirt here.

Discodog wrote: »

There are some fanatical christians that are every bit as dangerous as radical muslims.

Yeah I must have missed the news of radical Christians mowing down people in trucks, going on stabbing sprees, blowing themselves up in crowds and threatening violence on on anyone who questions their religious saviour. It's been a good while since Christians were doing that on any sort of level.

If the parents know that how their child will be educated they can decide if Ireland is for them. It would naturally filter out the more radical of all religions.

You can't be serious... Many of the parents quite simply don't care. They'll pressure the local schools to bend to their cultural will out of "tolerance", or they'll set up their own schools. Have you been looking at Europe over the last decades? Now I can understand the humanity involved with those who believe in the tolerance of western liberal societies, but the naivete in view is kinda crazy when it's right there in front of them played out in every single European country that has had a large influx of people from non European cultures. With the extra cultural colour you get a lot of social problems. Shoot me down in flames, but I'd really prefer if Ireland doesn't follow this same utterly stupid path just to look "tolerant". It's not too late, yet.

So ban the burqa but keep this legal ?

I'd restrict that too. Try walking into a bank wearing that.

bluewolf wrote:

I'm surprised to see hijabs brought up, they're just headscarves. Irish women wore them for many years.
Some of them are really pretty looking as well!

Aye, there's some confusion on this. I'd not ban headscarves. The niqab and burkas would be the types I have issue with. The chador would be a grey area for me.

Discodog

Deleted User wrote: »

So you would favor banning all of it?

I certainly would.

So how would your Stazi monitor & enforce the law? Do you get banned for carrying sunglasses or just wearing them ? It would be fun when the next beast from the east arrives. Hundreds arrested for keeping out the cold :pac:

LirW

Discodog wrote: »

So ban the burqa but keep this legal ?

Austria did it, it banned Burqas but in order to keep it non-discriminating they banned all face covers. The thing is though that there are a lot of cyclists in the cities and winters are terribly cold, so many of them pull their scarfes up to cover mouth and noses. In the year it was brought in no Burqa was penalised (because it's not really worn) but plenty of cyclists.

Discodog

Wibbs wrote: »

I would follow the French model. Get shot of all of it. And it's little enough to do with "wearing what they want". Their "choice" to not wear it is limited within that culture, the wearing of it is a clear cultural and political statement about that culture. We're not talking jokey tee shirt here.

Yeah I must have missed the news of radical Christians mowing down people in trucks, going on stabbing sprees, blowing themselves up in crowds and threatening violence on on anyone who questions their religious saviour. It's been a good while since Christians were doing that on any sort of level.

You can't be serious... Many of the parents quite simply don't care. They'll pressure the local schools to bend to their cultural will out of "tolerance", or they'll set up their own schools. Have you been looking at Europe over the last decades? Now I can understand the humanity involved with those who believe in the tolerance of western liberal societies, but the naivete in view is kinda crazy when it's right there in front of them played out in every single European country that has had a large influx of people from non European cultures. With the extra cultural colour you get a lot of social problems. Shoot me down in flames, but I'd really prefer if Ireland doesn't follow this same utterly stupid path just to look "tolerant". It's not too late, yet.

I'd restrict that too. Try walking into a bank wearing that.

Aye, there's some confusion on this. I'd not ban headscarves. The niqab and burkas would be the types I have issue with. The chador would be a grey area for me.

I actually find your posts on this subject disappointing. In all my years on Boards I would of viewed you as wise, sensible & moderate.

Rezident

Why?

Why do they make the women wear the full head and body covers so that nothing can be seen except the eyes? Is it female oppression or is it an insult to most men (and many women) that assumes that if we so much as glimpse female flesh we will be driven to aggressively sexually pursue them? And then it's the woman's "fault" for dressing that way? Is that the idea?

Either way this simply has no place in civilisation. The hats are ok but the full body covers are bizarre and apparently oppressive. It's like something medieval.

What is the real reason for it, seriously?

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

So how would your Stazi monitor & enforce the law?

Well, now... you've lost all respect as a poster. Deal with the argument on hand and leave out the emotional Nazi references. You have yet to deal with what I have actually written, instead preferring to infer things I haven't.

Do you get banned for carrying sunglasses or just wearing them ? It would be fun when the next beast from the east arrives. Hundreds arrested for keeping out the cold :pac:

And I have clearly written about articles of clothing or imagery which encourages the danger of physical violence, and prevent any realistic integration into western society/culture. Multiculturalism has failed. Consistently. Any multicultural society with an open system, after a few years, experiences massive social/cultural friction, which generally leads to violence between cultures/religions/race.

Scroll back. Read what I have written... and discuss that.

wakka12

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m genuinely not though.

The point is that they are two different societies, each function in very different ways, and in just the same way as there are circumstances where women in the West imagine they are second class citizens and there are men who imagine that they too, are second class citizens. Muslim societies really aren’t actually all that different - some women regard themselves as second class citizens, some men do too, but for the vast majority of people people living in either society it’s their way of life and it’s the way their society functions, and they’re generally content to live in their respective societies.

Second class citizen would mean more restrictive laws governing one group differently to another
Which happens many muslim women, such as not having been able to drive
Western world has no such laws
Western world treat women a lot better, it just goes without saying

coffee_cake

Honestly i don't reaaally think they should be allowed but i don't think a simple banning is going to help or solve anything. Are they going to be housebound in future? Is the prevalence a symptom of more isolated subcommunities refusing to integrate, which banning a burka will do absolutely nothing to help?
Seems like it's just the easiest option to pick on women and women's clothing and insist it's for their own good

indioblack

Rezident wrote: »

Why?

Why do they make the women wear the full head and body covers so that nothing can be seen except the eyes?

It must get bloody hot in there as well.

Discodog

bluewolf wrote: »

Honestly i don't reaaally think they should be allowed but i don't think a simple banning is going to help or solve anything. Are they going to be housebound in future? Is the prevalence a symptom of more isolated subcommunities refusing to integrate, which banning a burka will do absolutely nothing to help?
Seems like it's just the easiest option to pick on women and women's clothing and insist it's for their own good

Very good point. The alienation that immigrants felt when they came to the UK was partially due to racism - they simply felt safer in their own communities. The ones that left these areas were often professionals. People can forgive an immigrant if he happens to be a doctor.

riffmongous

indioblack wrote: »

It must get bloody hot in there as well.

Not if worn loosely, apparently.

Wibbs

Discodog wrote: »

I actually find your posts on this subject disappointing. In all my years on Boards I would of viewed you as wise, sensible & moderate.

Well I consider it both wise and sensible to look to history and our neighbours in Europe and see how this failed experiment in tolerant "multiculturalism" has and is playing out and try and stop the same social problems happening here. We have enough of our own, we hardly need to be importing more on the basis of a naive political position.

The joke is the only times in history multiculturalism has worked has been where the wider society was far less tolerant, more hardline, with a large side order of xenophobia and fear and mistrust of the outsider. Where anyone was welcome so long as they adhered to the dominant culture. Any dissent was heavily frowned upon at best, crushed mercilessly at worst. The early Islamic empire one example, as was(is) China. Rome another example. If you were in, you were in, but if you acted like the "barbarian" then you were treated like one.

Discodog

Wibbs wrote: »

Well I consider it both wise and sensible to look to history and our neighbours in Europe and see how this failed experiment in tolerant "multiculturalism" has and is playing out and try and stop the same social problems happening here. We have enough of our own, we hardly need to be importing more on the basis of a naive political position.

The joke is the only times in history multiculturalism has worked has been where the wider society was far less tolerant, more hardline, with a large side order of xenophobia and fear and mistrust of the outsider. Where anyone was welcome so long as they adhered to the dominant culture. Any dissent was heavily frowned upon at best, crushed mercilessly at worst. The early Islamic empire one example, as was(is) China. Rome another example. If you were in, you were in, but if you acted like the "barbarian" then you were treated like one.

Like I said - a disappointment. I think it works fine in the UK. I lived there for many years, sometimes with muslim neighbours. They respected me & I respected them. Same with all other religions.

The so called problem is the one dreamed up by Boris, Farage etc. It was used to spread fear & resulted in Brexit. I want an Ireland that's the polar opposite of this new right wing intolerance.

Ireland shouldn't ban anything unless it's really necessary. Banning a piece of cloth for the sake of a tiny number of people is just dumb.

Table Top Joe

bluewolf wrote: »

Are they going to be housebound in future? Is the prevalence a symptom of more isolated subcommunities refusing to integrate, which banning a burka will do absolutely nothing to help?

Banning it would do nothing to help integration no but how much can a woman covered in a Burka integrate now anyway?.......personally I would be in favour of banning it in the hope it would spell out loud and clear to anyone choosing Ireland to live in that that kind of nonsense isn't tolerated here, we've only just (mostly) gotten the Catholic Church off our backs we don't need a new religion enforcing more daft rules on women in this country, why on earth should we be expected to be tolerant to the intolerant?