Should Dublin ban Burqas and Hijabs?

timthumbni

Wibbs wrote: »

suicide_circus wrote: »

the danger is that banning could lead to consequences far worse for society than a few women being unidentifiable. I don't know. let's watch France and Denmark for a while and see what happens there.

Indeed SC and this is a symptom of the failure of the experiment in "multiculturalism". Fear. When a society is afraid of an alien minority that blatantly advertises its intolerance to that society to the degree that it pussyfoots around actually confronting it, that society is weak.

There is no doubt that most of the Western European countries are very weak. They seem to have no problem bending over backwards for people who despise them and exploit their weaknesses and stupidity to the hilt. Things aren’t so bad today perhaps but one day and it will be soon our children or our grandchildren will be asking wtf did we allow this to happen. We will only have ourselves to blame.

blinding

The Germans in Chemnitz are making their concerns known .

Many have tried ( peacefully ) before but the politicians haven’t listened .

When you see Violence Working for Islam....Well Quid Pro Quo .

cfuserkildare

Skinhead Kane wrote: »

Greetings guys and girls,

I have been thinking about this topic for quite some time now and have yet to make a real judgement on what truly would be a correct answer. If were to go to a country populated by the Muslim community we would be asked to cover up and follow their religious procedure.

Therefore in Britain and Ireland I believe we are within our rights to ban something that isolates woman and was made by men to oppress them. If I were to show my hair/head in their countries, I would be seen as obscene.

Recently came back from a trip and had some female friends been told by locals to cover their arms and legs as well as hair before entering out of the city centre areas. It was a very aggressive approach to and almost demanded 'or we leave the country' type of attitude. Now not using this as a reason or motive to make this topic, but it has however got me thinking.

If I could vote on it, I would ban burqas and possibly hijab.


What's your take on this guys?

Regards,

Sk

For safety and security reasons then Yes they should be banned.

banie01

Along with Burkes and Hickeys!
Ban Culchies and any hint of non conformity!
Keep Dublin English I say!

Wanderer78

Oh, the scary foreigners! Boring!

Wibbs

suicide_circus wrote: »

I'm fearing what we would have become rather than violence, although that can't be ruled out. that's how they really win, is it not? by turning us into them.

They win by disregarding and disrespecting the culture they find themselves in. To be frank, I'm no cultural relativist. I consider some cultures overall better than others and make no apologies for that. I consider Western culture superior to Islamic on a few levels*. A culture that must be rigorously defended







*It's time dependent as well. EG I would have considered Islamic culture superior to Western culture in the 10th century, but that's a long time ago. After an all too brief flowering of light and civilisation the Islamic world has been in reverse ever since.

Malayalam

Wibbs wrote: »

They win by disregarding and disrespecting the culture they find themselves in. To be frank, I'm no cultural relativist. I consider some cultures overall better than others and make no apologies for that. I consider Western culture superior to Islamic on a few levels*. A culture that must be rigorously defended







*It's time dependent as well. EG I would have considered Islamic culture superior to Western culture in the 10th century, but that's a long time ago. After an all too brief flowering of light and civilisation the Islamic world has been in reverse ever since.

Bravely said, you will take some criticism for that. Although I do think there are moderate and progressive voices in Islam who have a lot to offer to western culture going forwards. They are being drowned out though as are moderate western voices by cultural relativists and religious ideologues, a two pronged silencer we will one day regret

suicide_circus

Wibbs wrote: »

culture that must be rigorously defended

and the inherent weakness in western culture is that calling for western culture to be defended is seen as a dangerous right wing notion. freedom isn't free I guess. if we want to hold on to the liberties and quality of life we enjoy we may have to compromise on a few things.

Wanderer78

suicide_circus wrote:

and the inherent weakness in western culture is that calling for western culture to be defended is seen as a dangerous right wing notion. freedom isn't free I guess. if we want to hold on to the liberties and quality of life we enjoy we may have to compromise on a few things.

There's no such thing as freedom on this planet, but we continually try convince ourselves there is

suicide_circus

Wanderer78 wrote: »

There's no such thing as freedom on this planet, but we continually try convince ourselves there is

Deep.
We enjoy liberties that many across the globe do not.

Roger Hassenforder

Hijab- no. If you want to wear it as an expression of your faith fine, just scan my rashers and rum please.

Burqa - yes.
Nothing screams "we/I've no interest integrating in your society" than a burka.


I'd love to see some genuine independent study on how many women genuinely want to wear it , and how many are obliged/forced to wear one.
Anyone got anything?

timthumbni

Malayalam wrote: »

Wibbs wrote: »

They win by disregarding and disrespecting the culture they find themselves in. To be frank, I'm no cultural relativist. I consider some cultures overall better than others and make no apologies for that. I consider Western culture superior to Islamic on a few levels*. A culture that must be rigorously defended







*It's time dependent as well. EG I would have considered Islamic culture superior to Western culture in the 10th century, but that's a long time ago. After an all too brief flowering of light and civilisation the Islamic world has been in reverse ever since.

Bravely said, you will take some criticism for that. Although I do think there are moderate and progressive voices in Islam who have a lot to offer to western culture going forwards. They are being drowned out though as are moderate western voices by cultural relativists and religious ideologues, a two pronged silencer we will one day regret

I’ve said many times that our pants down and bend over attitude will haunt our future generations. So many people defend isalmic sadistic practices simply to be seen as right on.

It was the same during the Cold War when some would do anything to defend communism despite all the evidence of the horrors it caused. The soviets had a term for these people. Useful idiots..

There are still a plethora of useful idiots in Ireland, the uk and most of Western Europe. We need to wise the feck up... and quickly...

suicide_circus

I don't have anything particularly against the Burqa or Hijab. They're fine in the countries of their origin. I don't see why they should be tolerated in western countries though, since we don't have a cultural/historical background for having them, and I don't see it as desirable that we should develop such a culture.

The fact is that when you visit any Islamic country, there are laws/rules which determine your dress. While the Burqa/Hijab might not be required for foreigners (that means us), there are strict cultural demands to cover legs, shoulders, hair etc. Depending on the nation, those demands increase or decrease in severity and punishment.

"“If you want to be accepted and value the opportunity to befriend locals, dress modestly," says Telegraph Travel's Dubai expert Lara Dunston. "Women should wear skirts to the knees or longer, tops with sleeves, and nothing too tight or revealing; men should wear trousers/jeans and tops with sleeves. While you’ll see foreigners wearing less, this is highly offensive to Emiratis and it reduces your chances of meeting locals and getting the most out of your visit. Don’t even think about wearing swimwear away from the beach or hotel swimming pool. Do so and you risk being fined or, at worst, jailed.” "

I always find it amazing this expectation that Europeans should be so welcoming.... that they should, themselves, put aside any discomfort for other cultures & their habits, when it's the case, that in many countries around the world, the opposite is true.

Could some explain to me why Europe/Ireland needs to be so different from these countries? Why does the discomfort of local Irish/Europeans matter so little? After all, wouldn't you want us to respect the local culture when we go to Islamic countries?

suicide_circus wrote: »

listen lads, I agree that the multiculturalism experiment in europe has utterly failed and perhaps strong stances such as banning the Burka are the only solution I really don't know.

I wouldn't say it's the only solution, but it's a step in the right direction.

But TBF, I would feel the same about any religious mode of dress which drastically sets people apart and encourages people to be different. I'd suggest that you can't encourage integration into a foreign culture, by allowing practices which prevent that integration. Such dress codes such as the Hijab set people apart. It's distinguishes them as being different.

And before someone jumps in with some inane or obviously stupid minor example, no, it's not the same.

The Hijab/Burqas are more than simply religious expressions. They're cultural. They make a very clear statement that your beliefs do not align with Western values.


Secondly, in consideration for the failure of multiculturalism, the rise of modern terrorism, and the unrest/friction that has occurred in Europe (less so in Ireland yet), there is a lot of grievance against Islam. There is a growing anger and hostility throughout Europe, regarding the presence and behavior of Muslims. That hostility will likely turn to stronger expressions relatively soon. No doubt, posters will say that these Europeans would be wrong to behave that way, but the simple fact is that we have no way to diminish that anger. In spite of all your welcoming speeches/attitudes, you're not going to remove that anger which is developing... and the Hijab/Burqa give a very clear distinguishing sign that this person is a target. They distinguish the person as being not European. It makes far more sense to ban the use of Burqas/Hijabs until such a time that we have a working system in place to integrate Muslims, without encouraging the anger that currently exists.

No doubt the attitude will be that the Europeans should change and be more welcoming... so... tell me how that will happen? Seriously. Would love to know how you (those defending Muslim rights) propose to diminish that anger/dislike/hatred of Muslims which is sweeping Europe?

Discodog wrote: »

You progress by educating not banning.

Educating who? Surely the mere presence of western cultural freedoms would be educating them to their possibilities and freedoms?

The point though is that such dress is reinforced by parents, husbands, mothers, etc. (yup, there's a rather large % of Islamic women who enforce the demands for the Hijab/Burqa and will report lack of use to others) How do you educate them, and even more importantly, how do you convince them that their cultural habits are wrong?

You can't. So, you give an option. You can wear these things in Islamic countries, and when you live in a western nation, then you live as a westerner.... Don't like it or can't accept it? You're very welcome to move to an Islamic nation.

timthumbni

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't have anything particularly against the Burqa or Hijab. They're fine in the countries of their origin. I don't see why they should be tolerated in western countries though, since we don't have a cultural/historical background for having them, and I don't see it as desirable that we should develop such a culture.

The fact is that when you visit any Islamic country, there are laws/rules which determine your dress. While the Burqa/Hijab might not be required for foreigners (that means us), there are strict cultural demands to cover legs, shoulders, hair etc. Depending on the nation, those demands increase or decrease in severity and punishment.

"“If you want to be accepted and value the opportunity to befriend locals, dress modestly," says Telegraph Travel's Dubai expert Lara Dunston. "Women should wear skirts to the knees or longer, tops with sleeves, and nothing too tight or revealing; men should wear trousers/jeans and tops with sleeves. While you’ll see foreigners wearing less, this is highly offensive to Emiratis and it reduces your chances of meeting locals and getting the most out of your visit. Don’t even think about wearing swimwear away from the beach or hotel swimming pool. Do so and you risk being fined or, at worst, jailed.” "

I always find it amazing this expectation that Europeans should be so welcoming.... that they should, themselves, put aside any discomfort for other cultures & their habits, when it's the case, that in many countries around the world, the opposite is true.

Could some explain to me why Europe/Ireland needs to be so different from these countries? Why does the discomfort of local Irish/Europeans matter so little? After all, wouldn't you want us to respect the local culture when we go to Islamic countries?

suicide_circus wrote: »

listen lads, I agree that the multiculturalism experiment in europe has utterly failed and perhaps strong stances such as banning the Burka are the only solution I really don't know.

I wouldn't say it's the only solution, but it's a step in the right direction.

But TBF, I would feel the same about any religious mode of dress which drastically sets people apart and encourages people to be different. I'd suggest that you can't encourage integration into a foreign culture, by allowing practices which prevent that integration. Such dress codes such as the Hijab set people apart. It's distinguishes them as being different.

And before someone jumps in with some inane or obviously stupid minor example, no, it's not the same.

The Hijab/Burqas are more than simply religious expressions. They're cultural. They make a very clear statement that your beliefs do not align with Western values.


Secondly, in consideration for the failure of multiculturalism, the rise of modern terrorism, and the unrest/friction that has occurred in Europe (less so in Ireland yet), there is a lot of grievance against Islam. There is a growing anger and hostility throughout Europe, regarding the presence and behavior of Muslims. That hostility will likely turn to stronger expressions relatively soon. No doubt, posters will say that these Europeans would be wrong to behave that way, but the simple fact is that we have no way to diminish that anger. In spite of all your welcoming speeches/attitudes, you're not going to remove that anger which is developing... and the Hijab/Burqa give a very clear distinguishing sign that this person is a target. They distinguish the person as being not European. It makes far more sense to ban the use of Burqas/Hijabs until such a time that we have a working system in place to integrate Muslims, without encouraging the anger that currently exists.

No doubt the attitude will be that the Europeans should change and be more welcoming... so... tell me how that will happen? Seriously. Would love to know how you (those defending Muslim rights) propose to diminish that anger/dislike/hatred of Muslims which is sweeping Europe?

Discodog wrote: »

You progress by educating not banning.

Educating who? Surely the mere presence of western cultural freedoms would be educating them to their possibilities and freedoms?

The point though is that such dress is reinforced by parents, husbands, mothers, etc. (yup, there's a rather large % of Islamic women who enforce the demands for the Hijab/Burqa and will report lack of use to others) How do you educate them, and even more importantly, how do you convince them that their cultural habits are wrong?

You can't. So, you give an option. You can wear these things in Islamic countries, and when you live in a western nation, then you live as a westerner.... Don't like it or can't accept it? You're very welcome to move to an Islamic nation.

An excellent post. I agree with everything you said.

Omackeral

A full body and face covering in a crowded place is 100% cool though.

It's funny, I said this before that I walked into a shopping centre and within 5 seconds was approached and instructed to take down my hood. The responses from the usual candidates was that I must be a scumbag if security came over and told me to lower my hood. I'm not. The other one was that another fella regularly goes shopping with his hood up and nothing is said to them. Yeah, I'm not sure I believe you friend.

Taytoland

One eyed Jack wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Women in Muslim society are very much second class citizens within their own type. That’s not even a debate. It’s Amazing how many excuses people make.

Of course it’s debatable as you’re using Western standards to comment on standards in Muslim societies. You’re basically comparing apples and oranges. If you’re going to attempt to make that comparison then by the same standards, women in Western society are also just as much ‘second class citizens within their own type’.

Absolute joke of a post. Unbelievable. And yes they should be banned. If they don't like it get on the first boat or plane and go live in Muslim countries.

riffmongous

cournioni wrote: »

That’s all well and good, but allowing a garment that covers up identifiable features just because of their culture or religion is just as dangerous. What makes them any different from an avid motorcyclist who likes to wear their helmet into shops?

Creating one rule for one person and another for a person just based on their religion is absolutely wrong. The whole pastafarian thing summed it up nicely.

What'll happen at Halloween then? No more trick or treating or party costumes. Interestingly the Austrian law specifically says 'oh it's grand if it's part of our culture'

riffmongous

Taytoland wrote: »

Absolute joke of a post. Unbelievable. And yes they should be banned. If they don't like it get on the first boat or plane and go live in Muslim countries.

I think we should ban the Union Jack, be it a fleg or on an item of clothing, that's far more offensive to our culture and history than something worn by a mere handful of people. Sashes and Orange Lodges too, and rangers jerseys.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

There's no such thing as freedom on this planet, but we continually try convince ourselves there is

Sure there is... but it comes down to degrees of freedom. Human societies with an sizable population need a structure. Without structure comes chaos, and the group breaks apart violently. Freedom needs to be constrained because absolute freedom is destructive towards any structure which allows people to work together.

Let me put it this way. I've lived 8 years in China, and while I live there, I feel more free than I do in western countries. China is a police state but the laws aren't really enforced that heavily on the level of the average person unless you come to the attention of the government. Stay quiet and you can live your life without may laws/regulations. This can be seen though in the general low quality of services, the low quality of products, etc. The difference though is that in Western countries everything is regulated. There are laws to cover most interactions, and there are bodies in place to ensure that those regulations are enforced. So, over time, you're exposed to more rules/regulations which limit your choices. The State has far more involvement in the lives of the average person in the West than in China. Obviously it's far worse in China when the government does take an interest in you, but with the population involved, it's much easier to stay under the radar.

Then, there are Islamic countries, like Iran, where you have both the government regulations regarding your way of life, but also a very strict cultural system where average people are expected to monitor each others behavior. In this case, it doesn't matter how effective the govt regulations/laws are, there's no escaping the social/cultural aspects, and so your overall freedom is massively reduced. [Yes, I've spent time in Iran]

I really people need to get out and experience other countries (and cultures in their natural setting) before making these kinds of statements. Freedom is far more available in Western countries because you're "entitled" to it, and have the legal means to protect your own freedoms. Other countries don't have this. In China, the constitution is simply a promotional piece. The books of law can be suspended at any time, and often are. Not so in the West.

So.. Freedom? You have freedom. Freedom to break the rules, and deal with the consequences of your actions.

Phil.x

Yes they should be banned.

Taytoland

riffmongous wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Absolute joke of a post. Unbelievable. And yes they should be banned. If they don't like it get on the first boat or plane and go live in Muslim countries.

I think we should ban the Union Jack, be it a fleg or on an item of clothing, that's far more offensive to our culture and history than something worn by a mere handful of people. Sashes and Orange Lodges too, and rangers jerseys.

Yawn, predictable. Stop making excuses for Islamism.

Shenshen

Between this thread and the one about Luas drivers not being able to figure out how to keep their sandwiches cool and threatening strike action about it, I do wonder if the world doesn't have any other problems any more.

riffmongous

riffmongous wrote: »

I think we should ban the Union Jack, be it a fleg or on an item of clothing, that's far more offensive to our culture and history than something worn by a mere handful of people. Sashes and Orange Lodges too, and rangers jerseys.

If it is encouraging an environment of discomfort, and/or hostility, then yes, they should be banned. We have laws which prevent hate speech. We have laws which come into play to diminish the promotion of actions (and imagery) that may result in violence.

If someone can show that displaying the Union Jack will encourage violence against those wearing the Union Jack, then it should be banned. Both for the sake of the 'victim' and the people doing the attacking. [I put victim in '' because they might be wearing it knowing that they would encourage such a reaction]

There is a growing sense of resentment and hostility to Islam in Europe. Not in Ireland (yet, or maybe never), but there is in Europe. Would you agree to that?

timthumbni

riffmongous wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Absolute joke of a post. Unbelievable. And yes they should be banned. If they don't like it get on the first boat or plane and go live in Muslim countries.

I think we should ban the Union Jack, be it a fleg or on an item of clothing, that's far more offensive to our culture and history than something worn by a mere handful of people. Sashes and Orange Lodges too, and rangers jerseys.

Union flag you mean. A jack is ones that are on ships. Sashes are rarely worn nowadays by orange men. They wear collarettes mostly. Deflection is becoming a habit for you.

And I’m still very interested on exactly what forum on here you are a mod. I would assume there wasn’t any other volunteers.....

Are you happy to defend outdated and sadistic Islamic practices or just happy to have a dig at the brits again.?

Try_harder

jaxxx wrote: »

Worldwide. Way past time we grew a pair and refused to accept archaic customs into our countries. Religious garment or not, as far as I'm concerned it has always been and always will be a sign of oppression against women. Keep it out of the Western world where women aren't treated as objects.

Women aren't treated as objects in the west???

Discodog

cournioni wrote: »

What way will you be educating them?

I wouldn't ban the burqa but I would ban Muslim schools & catholic schools. Millions of Muslims don't wear the burqa or hijab. They make up their own mind because, like ever other religion, Islam is open to interpretation.

Children should be taught about world religions & their customs. Then they can make up their own minds.

Discodog

cournioni wrote: »

What makes you think that this is the right thing to do? Why are you right and religious people wrong?

Before you say it I’m not a religious person. I just find your point of view a little far fetched, and quite arrogant.

Educate together schools seem to manage fine & are very popular. Religious practice is for the home not school.

Discodog

cournioni wrote: »

I think all clothing that doesn’t allow reasonable identification of a person in public should be banned. The hijab is fine, the niqab and burqua not fine.

The number one item used to hide identification is the hoody & baseball cap.

Discodog

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What’s that mean? Are you hoping for an Irish education system that attacks conservative Muslim dress?

Of course not. I want an education system that teaches kids to be open minded & to learn about all religions but not practice them in school.

Yer Da sells Avon

Omackeral wrote: »

It's funny, I said this before that I walked into a shopping centre and within 5 seconds was approached and instructed to take down my hood. The responses from the usual candidates was that I must be a scumbag if security came over and told me to lower my hood. I'm not. The other one was that another fella regularly goes shopping with his hood up and nothing is said to them. Yeah, I'm not sure I believe you friend.

I'd have no major issue with banning burqas (or motorcycle helmets, or balaclavas) from shops, shopping centres, etc, but not hijabs (or hoodies or hats, for that matter).

Banning an item of clothing from outdoor public places though? No, that's just pure fash.