travellers in flash cars??

pontovic · 29-12-2005 8:03am

Id just like to add my bit and say something. I wouldn't think myself a racist or a bigot, but I used to work in a Shell petrol station and shop about 5 years ago, and the majority of people from the trafvelling community who came in would try to swindle us in some way. A traveller woman would come in and distract one of us at the till looking for cigarettes while her 10 kids in the shop would rob us blind. I saw them doing it. I had 2 other guys coming in looking for 2 pounds worth of diesel, but they never had any intention of paying the money back. Another guy tried to cash a dodgy cheque for 500 pounds !!

on another note though, there was a traveller woman who used to call to our door every saturday and we would help her out with money and food. she was one of the nicest people you could ever meet, and she even gave us all a christmas card at christmas. she had a load of cuts on her arm recently because her husband got drunk and attacked her with a knife ! I hope she's ok now.

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 8:12am

mickymg2003 wrote:

Yes but there not that easy to find!!!Line from snatch:"You wont find a pikey if he doesnt want to be found". How do you send a summons or anything else to a caravan thats always on the move?

Ahh so thats why. Good thing there where no 'pikeys' in Armeggeon or we would be blaming them for metor strikes.

Or as the saying goes "When you need to prove a factual point it is always best to pick the most related fictional hollywood movie".

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 8:13am

OMcGovern wrote:

I ended up on the wrong end of a road rage incident recently with a traveller on the N4 near Lucan. I flashed my lights at him for changing lanes directly in front of me, with no indicators.

If you had sat the new Driving Test exam you would of known that the correct response was do to do nothing. Saying "Flash your lights" would of failed that question as it is inciting road rage.

OMcGovern wrote:

I remember the case just a few years ago, where a traveller ran down a little kid in Tallaght, and the grieving parents were harassed by the travellers to drop the case. They sat in cars/vans outside their house etc.... the distressed parents were in bits on the Kenny Live / Late Late show about the whole incident and on-going witness intimidation.

Do you have a link to that or more details in question regarding that.

I am also curious how the fuk people know they (and when I say they I mean all of them) don't pay taxes. Do yous take a census or something?

billy the squid · 29-12-2005 8:22am

pontovic wrote:

Id just like to add my bit and say something. I wouldn't think myself a racist or a bigot, but I used to work in a Shell petrol station and shop about 5 years ago, and the majority of people from the trafvelling community who came in would try to swindle us in some way. A traveller woman would come in and distract one of us at the till looking for cigarettes while her 10 kids in the shop would rob us blind. I saw them doing it. I had 2 other guys coming in looking for 2 pounds worth of diesel, but they never had any intention of paying the money back. Another guy tried to cash a dodgy cheque for 500 pounds !!

on another note though, there was a traveller woman who used to call to our door every saturday and we would help her out with money and food. she was one of the nicest people you could ever meet, and she even gave us all a christmas card at christmas. she had a load of cuts on her arm recently because her husband got drunk and attacked her with a knife ! I hope she's ok now.

So you had a bunch of troublesome youths who coincidentally were travellers. what is your point? and I love the use of the now cliched term "I am not a racist but..."

Wolverine_1999 · 29-12-2005 8:48am

the_menace wrote:

contribute more to the development of this country than anyone else

You mean with the rubbish and crap they leave lying around everywhere?

Actually, that's one of Ireland's favourite past-times, dumping rubbish in every ditch and hole that can be found..

Beer is Life · 29-12-2005 9:08am

billy the squid wrote:

So you had a bunch of troublesome youths who coincidentally were travellers. what is your point? and I love the use of the now cliched term "I am not a racist but..."

Isnt it a shame it has to be said at all just for someone to get their point across without being labelled a racist when they obviously arent.
Most of the people here have mentioned actual occurances anyway so you have nothing to stand on. "Once bitten, twice shy". I think thats just about the size of it.

pontovic · 29-12-2005 9:53am

billy the squid wrote:

So you had a bunch of troublesome youths who coincidentally were travellers. what is your point? and I love the use of the now cliched term "I am not a racist but..."

no they were'nt a bunch of troublesome youths actually, although I had my fair share of them too. Personally I dont think all travellers are bad people, but there are some, just like there are bad people from all demographics, but the bad name travellers have is not entirely unjustified.

thats just my piece, i dont want to argue with you because it would go on for too long. i didnt ask for any of your stick so please dont give it, and no, i'm not a racist. thanks.

billy the squid · 29-12-2005 9:56am

Beer is Life wrote:

Isnt it a shame it has to be said at all just for someone to get their point across without being labelled a racist when they obviously arent.

but they are not making any point. they are just stating experiences they have had. when a customer walks into a shop there is a fifty percent chance that the he/she is going to be either a nice person or a complete prick. it doesnt matter whether they are traveller, black, jew, muslim, homosexual, space alien, whatever. It is indeed bigotry to make generalisations about a group of people. let us call a spade a spade.

the term "i am not a racist but..." in my experience, is 99 out of every hundred times I have heard it, followed by a racist comment.

i am not a racist but these blacks should go back to their own country
I am not a racist but there are too many eastern europeans in the country

Most of the people here have mentioned actual occurances anyway so you have nothing to stand on. "Once bitten, twice shy". I think thats just about the size of it.

I am not questioning the validity of the anecdotes of the people posting here, but you have to agree. If I were to start a thread about romanian beggers, or nigerian fraudsters, I would have numerous replies from people who have been stung by them. It doesn't prove that the majority of Romanians, or Nigerians are dodgy though does it?

Beer is Life · 29-12-2005 10:50am

billy the squid wrote:

i am not a racist but these blacks should go back to their own country
I am not a racist but there are too many eastern europeans in the country

OT but I dont see how this could be labelled as racist. In order to be racist, you must first hate, no? Most Irish people i hear saying that wouldnt hurt a fly, they just have legitimate concerns that the moral police like to call racist. Its out of control (the moral police) and people are afraid to speak thier mind in this country, and thats an absolute disgrace.

billy the squid wrote:

I am not questioning the validity of the anecdotes of the people posting here, but you have to agree. If I were to start a thread about romanian beggers, or nigerian fraudsters, I would have numerous replies from people who have been stung by them. It doesn't prove that the majority of Romanians, or Nigerians are dodgy though does it?

Nope, but its only common sense to be more wary and suspicious of a person who shares the same charecteristics of someone who has done you in the past. Like, for example, a bunch of scumbags beats you up, wouldnt you feel afraid whenever you saw a bunch of scumbags again? Even though this second group never harmed you before? Even though its "wrong" to catagorize like that, i think it some kind of survival thing?

Litcagral · 29-12-2005 11:01am

Beer is Life wrote:

Like, for example, a bunch of scumbags beats you up, wouldnt you feel afraid whenever you saw a bunch of scumbags again? Even though this second group never harmed you before? Even though its "wrong" to catagorize like that, i think it some kind of survival thing?

If one was beaten up by a group of white, middleaged men who live in three bed semi's in a suburban area would one feel afraid when meeting a group like that again??

If the second group of 'scumbags' never harmed you why would you consider them to be scumbags??

eth0_ · 29-12-2005 11:04am

There are Irish travellers living in Germany ya know. I dislike travellers too but they might just be living in Germany.

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 11:14am

You know something is wrong when a UN human rights report lists Ireland as the worst for racism when it comes to Travellers.

Some hard facts as a traveller.
- You are more likely to die younger then normal Irish population (avg 12 years)
- child mortality rate (births) is over double the norm for Ireland.
- You are more likely not be able to read or write.
- You are less likely to get a job in Ireland as a traveller.
- You are liable to be moved on (eviction) with no warning. This is in areas where they are legally allowed to park thier caravans.
- You are more likely not to have basic amenities others have like running water/toilets.
- You are more likely to be faced with hostility from others on a day to day basis.
- You are less likely to get a medical card.
- Despite what people are claiming they do not get free houses and are more likely to be denied housing vs non-travellers.
- Your area is most likely to be infested with rats.
- You are liable to be banned for no reason from various establishments. (despite this being illegal)
- You are liable to have your stuff taken by the Garda even when you can legally prove it is yours.
- They do have to pay taxes (halting sites are fixed abodes), Some may not but does not mean that what they are doing is legal.

And that was just a random search across with google on what Travellers have to put up with.

Here is something to get you started...
http://www.exchangehouse.ie/ireland.htm

Beer is Life · 29-12-2005 11:21am

Litcagral wrote:

If one was beaten up by a group of white, middleaged men who live in three bed semi's in a suburban area would one feel afraid when meeting a group like that again??

If the second group of 'scumbags' never harmed you why would you consider them to be scumbags??

We are surrounded by white middleaged men all the time, we know they are not all like that. But when someone has very limited contact with travellers, coupled with their "bad name", it leads to what we see here. In my town for example, whenever there is a traveller funeral or wedding, the whole town shuts down. Shops close early, pubs dont bother opening at all. This isnt a case of racism for these busineses, its a case of self preservation.

And by scumbags, i didnt literally mean the second group were scumbags, but they looked like the last group, ie, same age group, same clothing style etc etc.

Beer is Life · 29-12-2005 11:34am

Hobbes wrote:

You know something is wrong when a UN human rights report lists Ireland as the worst for racism when it comes to Travellers.

Some hard facts as a traveller.
- You are more likely to die younger then normal Irish population (avg 12 years) Wouldnt this be put down to the lifestyle they live? Why is this "my" fault?
- You are more likely not be able to read or write. I worked in a school and had one to one teaching with traveller kids from about 8 up to 13. They did not want to learn or be in school. Simple as that. They did not want to be educated. The parents didnt give a shlt, wouldnt help them at home and basically allowed them not to go to school
- You are less likely to get a job in Ireland as a traveller. Majority of them are uneducated, whos gonna hire them?
- You are liable to be moved on (eviction) with no warning. This is in areas where they are legally allowed to park thier caravans.
- You are more likely not to have basic amenities others have like running water/toilets. If they park in any old ditch, what are we supposed to do? They dont use the halting sites in my town
- You are more likely to be faced with hostility from others on a day to day basis. I can only speak for my area, but i have never seen or heard of settled on traveller violence, its always and without fail the other way around.
- You are less likely to get a medical card.
- Despite what people are claiming they do not get free houses and are more likely to be denied housing vs non-travellers. ALL settled traveller houses in my town are a fvcking tip! You wouldnt see the likes of it in downtown Bagdad. Im not suprised at this.
- Your area is most likely to be infested with rats. See above
- You are liable to be banned for no reason from various establishments. (despite this being illegal)
- You are liable to have your stuff taken by the Garda even when you can legally prove it is yours.
- They do have to pay taxes (halting sites are fixed abodes), Some may not but does not mean that what they are doing is legal.

And that was just a random search across with google on what Travellers have to put up with.

Here is something to get you started...
http://www.exchangehouse.ie/ireland.htm

.

Litcagral · 29-12-2005 11:48am

Beer is Life wrote:

We are surrounded by white middleaged men all the time, we know they are not all like that. But when someone has very limited contact with travellers, coupled with their "bad name", it leads to what we see here. In my town for example, whenever there is a traveller funeral or wedding, the whole town shuts down. Shops close early, pubs dont bother opening at all. This isnt a case of racism for these busineses, its a case of self preservation.

And by scumbags, i didnt literally mean the second group were scumbags, but they looked like the last group, ie, same age group, same clothing style etc etc.

If you have very limited contact with Travellers why do you assume that they are all bad?

I'm not aware of any anti-social activity in my area of Dublin being caused by travellers e.g car theft, burglary, drugs, drinking in public, shoplifting, loitering, vandalism, late night noise. I go out regularly and pick up litter around my area which is usually caused by settled children/teenagers on their way home from school.

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 11:52am

Beer is Life wrote:

Wouldnt this be put down to the lifestyle they live? Why is this "my" fault?

Did I say it was your fault? Lifestyle they live is hardly by choice or are you telling me people like to live in rat infested areas with no running water/toilets?

They did not want to learn or be in school. Simple as that.

What child does? You can check oasis.gov.ie regarding travellers and schools.

Majority of them are uneducated, whos gonna hire them?

This refers to those who are educated, however racist comment like that is what stopping those getting a job.

If they park in any old ditch, what are we supposed to do? They dont use the halting sites in my town

I was referring to halting sites. Of total percentage of travellers in Ireland very few "park in any old ditch" and most that do so because they are refused parking at halting sites.

ALL settled traveller houses in my town are a fvcking tip!

So you berate them because they won't get a house and when they do get a house you berate them too. Is this reason to discriminate against them?

Of course I don't expect you to read the link. Not entirely sure why you are taking it personal either.

But heres another if you want to actually educate yourself.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~racismctee/travellr.html

the_menace · 29-12-2005 11:57am

Ajnag wrote:

Hmm the humour too much for ya?

That was humour?

Ajnag wrote:

You wont be getting my respect either, so no need to worry what i think about travelers

Oh no. I don't get the respect of someone I don't know and who doesn't know me. This is the worst day of my life.

Ajnag wrote:

I just like the fact that they scare the living **** out of people like you

They scare me? How do you figure? I only remember saying that I think they're a bunch of f**king scumbags.

Ajnag wrote:

Ive no allusion to defend travellers, but I dont have to take unsubstanicated bull**** and heresay posted on a public board to heart as evident truth.

You shouldn't make assumptions. I speak from long and bitter experience, pal.

Ajnag wrote:

I think it would be "a wee bit thick really" to just swallow what someone said on the net? Dont you?

See above.

Ajnag wrote:

I just also happen to think that extreme and reactionary opinions are no better then the pedantic bull**** of pc extremists.

See above. :rolleyes:

I grew up in an area where there were many different traveller communities over the years and I have plenty of anecdotes that give rock-solid credibility to my assertions that a disproportionate number of travellers are violent, nasty pieces of work. Obviously I can't prove that any of them are true as they're simply anecdotes but I will continue to express my opinion, based on my experiences. What experiences have you had with travellers, eh? Nah, I thought not.

I'm not saying all travellers are total scum but out of the dozens of experiences I've had with them up until I moved out of said area - you could forgive me for thinking so. There are certainly a disproportionate number who are. For being in idiotic denial and living under a rock - you lost my respect

Peace out.

Sam Vimes · 29-12-2005 12:04pm

2kinky wrote:

just wondering how do they get these high hend cars and what laws apply to them i terms of travel,paying tax prsi etc??

i can say with some confidence that no law applies to stolen cars. there were some pikeys in the cinema last night. one of them stood up for some reason and literally shouted on his phone for about ten minutes. a few weeks ago in burger king at about half 2, some pikeys insisted to the poor chinese bloke behind the counter that they gave him a fifty when they clearly didnt. the scumbags got their money. they come to my door and beg for food (or money which we wont give them) and then i see them in dunnes with a full trolley a few days later. and don't get me started on the romanian gypsies. there's a particular family that in my shop more than me. they think that we wont recognise them the second they walk in with theft on their mind. prejudice my arse.

what does a pikey get for christmas? your bike

also speaking of the cinema, don't go to see the producers. the first twenty minutes were so retarded i walked out. i don't see how anyone over the age of four could think it was funny

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 12:06pm

Commander Vimes wrote:

i can say with some confidence that no law applies to stolen cars. there were some pikeys in the cinema last night. one of them stood up for some reason and literally shouted on his phone for about ten minutes. a few weeks ago in burger king at about half 2, some pikeys insisted to the poor chinese bloke behind the counter that they gave him a fifty when they clearly didnt.

How do you know they are travellers? Do you ask them?

eth0_ · 29-12-2005 12:09pm

Hobbes wrote:

You know something is wrong when a UN human rights report lists Ireland as the worst for racism when it comes to Travellers.
[/url]

It's pretty insulting to refer to it as 'racism'. Travellers are just a group of people who chose to drop out of society and live parasitically.

Unless you're referring to actual Romany Gypsies, and not Irish knackers.

eth0_ · 29-12-2005 12:09pm

Hobbes wrote:

How do you know they are travellers? Do you ask them?

Do you live in the real world? Irish travellers are instantly identifiable.

colm_mcm · 29-12-2005 12:10pm

There's nothing wrong with living in a caravan, my only problem that in my experience, the majority are up to no good. in my opinion they are not a minority group that should be treasured, rather a few people who are living a very dubious lifestyle and being aided, and at the same time ignored by the government

Sam Vimes · 29-12-2005 12:13pm

Hobbes wrote:

How do you know they are travellers? Do you ask them?

as etho says you can spot them a mile off. usually because they're wearing your shoes. you can spot them by their accent, the way they dress and the fact that they feel the need to be permanently loud and obnoxious

after i left the cinema, two more in the taxi queue in front of me felt the need to ask "are you a baby" while i was trying to keep my gf warm. im not sure what that means exactly but i doubt she did either. they then asked me the time even though they had watches.

Litcagral · 29-12-2005 12:18pm

eth0_ wrote:

It's pretty insulting to refer to it as 'racism'. Travellers are just a group of people who chose to drop out of society and live parasitically.

Unless you're referring to actual Romany Gypsies, and not Irish knackers.

It's pretty insulting to assume travellers have chosen to be travellers. I don't recall being asked when I was born if I would like to be a traveller, just as most people don't recall being asked what skin colour they would like to have.

By referring to Travellers as "knackers" you are displaying your ignorance and lack of education. I suggest you find out what a knacker is before using the term incorrectly.

Beer is Life · 29-12-2005 12:18pm

Hobbes wrote:

Did I say it was your fault? Were you not saying that the Irish are the worst in the world for racism against travellers? I am Irish you know. I could play your game on that one and rant about generalising, but i wont.

What child does? You can check oasis.gov.ie regarding travellers and schools. It was a little more than just not wanting to be there. It was a complete lack of respect for the school, the teachers and their education. They showed alot of promise as individuals, so much potential, but they all eventually just left. No help from at home i suspect, and therefore they had no motivation themselves.

This refers to those who are educated, however racist comment like that is what stopping those getting a job. Whats racist about stating a fact? If you are uneducated, whos gonna hire you? You're basically unemployable for all but the worst of jobs. I misread the fact you were refering to the educated. This proves another point though that i mentioned earlier. Why did you feel the need to throw the race card out there? You dont know me, im not some bigot. Im just throwing some ideas out from the other side of the fence. Thats really annoyed me now.

I was referring to halting sites. Of total percentage of travellers in Ireland very few "park in any old ditch" and most that do so because they are refused parking at halting sites.

So you berate them because they won't get a house and when they do get a house you berate them too. Is this reason to discriminate against them? Id just like to state for the record ive never discriminated against anyone in my life, im just telling it like it is from where i am.

Of course I don't expect you to read the link. Not entirely sure why you are taking it personal either. When you call me racist twice, what else do you expect?

But heres another if you want to actually educate yourself.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~racismctee/travellr.html

.

the_menace · 29-12-2005 12:39pm

Litcagral wrote:

It's pretty insulting to assume travellers have chosen to be travellers.

Most of them have and refuse to settle even when offered settled housing by the government.

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 12:49pm

eth0_ wrote:

Do you live in the real world? Irish travellers are instantly identifiable.

The items he listed apart from "They have your shoes on" (racist comment) could refer to anyone else in society. About the only thing personally that I could say with some guessing is that accent only (which isn't far off from a cork accent tbh) or if you know any words of "camp" which tbh I am not even sure if that slang/language extends beyond my local area.

Were you not saying that the Irish are the worst in the world for racism against travellers? I am Irish you know. I could play your game on that one and rant about generalising, but i wont.

I was referring to a UN Commission on Human Rights, report called "Elimination of Racism and Racial Discrimination" (23rd November 1994). I even link to it for you, guess your not bothering to read.

I'm Irish too you know but I don't see the report as a personal attack against myself but instead showing something that is flawed with our society.

No help from at home i suspect, and therefore they had no motivation themselves.

So what is your answer then? Give up on them?

Whats racist about stating a fact? If you are uneducated, whos gonna hire you?

The racist part is extending that to "All travellers". You assume Traveller = uneducated. Up until you actually interview the person you aren't going to know.

Did you know in England an Irish guy was refused a job because "All Irish are drunks and would probably turn up for work drunk" and he sued that company and won (happened some years back).

Same sort of generalisation. Or the best to date was the national outcry up as far as govenmental level when Eastenders portrayed Irish as wife beating drunks who like to steal. A lot of people to get outraged over that but when there are only 27,000 of you its easier for people to make comments and not expect to be slapped for it.

Im just throwing some ideas out from the other side of the fence. Thats really annoyed me now.

Again read the link I posted has a nice bit about "I'm No Racist, and What Is It Anyway?", explains it a bit better.

im just telling it like it is from where i am.

Which still doesn't answer my question. Are you saying we shouldn't give them houses (discriminate in the selection process) or complain that they won't take a house?

When you call me racist twice, what else do you expect?

I'd expect the person to research why I am thinking the way I am by reading where I am coming from. I may be right or I may be wrong but you won't know that until you research the facts.

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 12:49pm

the_menace wrote:

Most of them have and refuse to settle even when offered settled housing by the government.

Can you back that up with actual facts? I say you can't because as I have pointed out the reverse is actually true.

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 12:53pm

eth0_ wrote:

It's pretty insulting to refer to it as 'racism'. Travellers are just a group of people who chose to drop out of society and live parasitically.

Unless you're referring to actual Romany Gypsies, and not Irish knackers.

Again read the link I posted it goes into detail better then I can. Btw Knacker is also a derogatory term so would be classed as racism too.

Sleepy · 29-12-2005 1:07pm

How is it racism unless the group of people are actually of a different ethnicity than you? As far as I can tell the travelling community in Ireland are mainly caucasion and Irish in descent.

Calling someone rascist for a general dislike and (reasonably justified) mistrust of the travelling community is akin to calling me a rascist because I'll believe that anyone wearing a "People's Republic of Cork" t-shirt is a dickhead until they've proven themselves otherwise.

fischerspooner · 29-12-2005 1:17pm

The only run ins with travellers I've had lately have been bad ones. First one was when they started smoking in my local and then abusing the staff when asked to stop, hurling racist comments at the Chinese staff etc.
Second time was a repeat of that scene in a different pub. Apart from that the one traveller I do know (not very well), is now in the joy for posession of 50,000 euros worth of coke.
I think that they grow up in a lawless environment, where no one has any respect for society or authorities. This is why they go nuts when in pubs etc.
They don't affect my life in any way but I think it's disgusting the way they leave areas like rubbish tips when they move site, they should be punished for that.

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 1:22pm

Sleepy wrote:

How is it racism unless the group of people are actually of a different ethnicity than you? As far as I can tell the travelling community in Ireland are mainly caucasion and Irish in descent.

ffs does no one actually research anything anymore, here let me hold some of you peoples hands...

http://www.exchangehouse.ie/ireland.htm

Denial of Racism
While there is a willingness to acknowledge that there is widespread prejudice towards Travellers in Irish society and also a recognition of discrimination against Travellers there is still strong resistance among the Irish public, to calling the treatment of Travellers racist.... Secondly, there is a tendency to see racism only in relation to skin colour.... For instance, it is frequently said that Travellers cannot experience racism because they are white, are not 'a different race' nor a different nationality.

This denial, confusion, as well as a tendency to blame the victim is evident in this excerpt from a written submission by an Irish MEP to the Committee of Inquiry into Racism and Xenophobia in 1990:

"Ireland is a racially homogeneous country with no ethnic minority groups. As a consequence there are no racial problems of the kind experienced in countries with such groups. Neither is there a large presence of foreigners. . . the position could alter if the influx became sustained. . . there is however a minority group of travelling people giving rise to some of the problems associated with racism.3"

2. Eurobarometer Opinion Poll No. 47.1, Racism and Xenophobia in Europe, 1997.
3. Quoted in O'Connell, John. Reach Out, Pavee Point, 1994.

There is a lot more to that as well. It is a good read. I'd assume anyone who thinks themselves not a racist actually read it.

OMcGovern · 29-12-2005 1:39pm

billy the squid wrote:

Firstly I am reporting this post for the terminology used in the above paragraph.

Again if you find someone breaking the law, call the guards, it would be more effective than posting hate on the internet.

1. This is a public forum, and people with a variety of opinions should be allowed to express them here in whatever language is appropriate to communicate that across. I see the political correctness brigade has trained you well... you've recycled their opinions.

2. I did call the guards about the road rage incident. But when they're driving a car with false reg plates the Guards are impotent. They said "they'ld look out for him".... wow... I can sleep well at night knowing that.

Hobbes wrote:

If you had sat the new Driving Test exam you would of known that the correct response was do to do nothing. Saying "Flash your lights" would of failed that question as it is inciting road rage.

The correct response was to do nothing ? Rubbish.
I didn't incite road rage.
This guys driving was erratic enough to be a danger to me.
He needed to be made aware that his maneoveur was too close to my car for
safety. For many reasons he may not have seen me, if I was in his blind spot, or he had broken mirrors.

When I flashed my lights, his reaction was to immediately slam on the brakes in front of me, and throw stuff at my car. That's a criminal offense.

A colleague in work had a similar experience on the Sandyford roundabout, when a hiace went around the full roundabout in the outer lane, cutting across him. He beeped, and the van gave chase and a van load of knackers got out looking for a fight. I was surprised that I heard a similar story.

Hobbes wrote:

I am also curious how the fuk people know they (and when I say they I mean all of them) don't pay taxes. Do yous take a census or something?

How many knackers have you been served by in shops, garages, in offices, etc ? Have you ever seen a knacker doing a normal permanent full time job?
If any of them have jobs, it's probably "cash in hand" jobs, with no contribution to the taxman/society.

Ps. I know "knackers" is a derogatory term.... I see no reason to be polite to them. I believe in "calling a spade, a spade".... and yes, I know where that phrase comes from too !

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 1:51pm

OMcGovern wrote:

1. This is a public forum, and people with a variety of opinions should be allowed to express them here in whatever language is appropriate to communicate that across.

It is public up to a point. Despite what you think you can't post what you like here.

The correct response was to do nothing ? Rubbish.
I didn't incite road rage.
This guys driving was erratic enough to be a danger to me.

That is immaterial. You think its Rubbish? Go buy a recent book on the rules of the road and look up the section relating to road rage.

I did the test earlier this year and I got that very question so I know for a fact it is part of the rules of the road.

his reaction was to immediately slam on the brakes in front of me, and throw stuff at my car. That's a criminal offense.

True and true he is was driving incorrectly however you were still breaking the rules of the road by flashing him. Apart from inciting road rage you could distract the driver enough that they could cause an accident.

Your correct response is to slow to a safe driving distance and carry on. If you at that point believe the person is a serious danger to people on the road then call the guards and report it.

You did report it right?

If any of them have jobs, it's probably "cash in hand" jobs, with no contribution to the taxman/society.

Speculation with no facts to back up as usual.

Ps. I know "knackers" is a derogatory term.... I see no reason to be polite to them.

Which explains a lot.

Sam Vimes · 29-12-2005 1:51pm

Sleepy wrote:

How is it racism unless the group of people are actually of a different ethnicity than you? As far as I can tell the travelling community in Ireland are mainly caucasion and Irish in descent.

Calling someone rascist for a general dislike and (reasonably justified) mistrust of the travelling community is akin to calling me a rascist because I'll believe that anyone wearing a "People's Republic of Cork" t-shirt is a dickhead until they've proven themselves otherwise.

when he says racism, he means prejudice. when you generalise over a group of people its prejudice, racism is just a handier term to use. i'm usually on the other side in threads such as these but i've never had an experience with a traveller that's shown them to be anything other than thieving scum with no regard for anyone, including themselves.

near me there's a place where the government built some houses for travellers. you'd think they'd take a bit of pride in the place since they live there permanently but there's tons of rubbish in the middle of the road in this little cul de sac. they don't seem to care that they live in filth and other people have to pay to clean up their mess

with most racism, its a few bad eggs making the rest look bad but with the travellers, as far as i can see, its one or two decent ones giving the rest of the scum a good name

it pisses me off that they come to my door to beg and then go home to their 70 inch plasma screen tv. i know some of them have them because a mates dad fit a carpet in one of their caravans and then when he asked for the money every one of them insisted it was someone else's job to pay him. 2 hours later he left and swore never to deal with travellers again

calling someone a n!gger is racist and clearly wrong. they were born that colour and there's nothing they can do about it unless they go down the michael jackson route. on the other hand, all a traveller has to do is walk off the halting site, have a shower and get a job. in other words they choose to be travellers, so disliking them is no more racist than disliking a member of the kkk

what kind of key can get into any locked house or car in the world? a pikey

OMcGovern · 29-12-2005 2:07pm

Hobbes wrote:

Go buy a recent book on the rules of the road and look up the section relating to road rage.

True and true he is was driving incorrectly however you were still breaking the rules of the road by flashing him. Apart from inciting road rage you could distract the driver enough that they could cause an accident.

Your correct response is to slow to a safe driving distance and carry on. If you at that point believe the person is a serious danger to people on the road then call the guards and report it.

You did report it right?

Flashing my lights once should not incite "road rage" or an attack.
There are plenty of things which aren't in the Rules of the Road which are accepted practise on Irish roads.

What do you do if someone is driving with no lights on at nighttime ?
I imagine you follow the rules of the road perfectly, slow down, and watch with anticipation for them to crash or be crashed into..... comfortable in the knowledge that you followed the rules of the road to the letter.

And yes, as I mentioned before.... I did report the road rage attack.
The knacker must've had false plates, or swapped around car regs in his junk yard.

micosavo · 29-12-2005 2:09pm

We are all making valid points here, for both sides. Lets not get ourselves polarized from each other, it is getting quite heated.

There is no solution to this problem. And it is a problem. My comments, and I am sure nobody's, are not racist. I will not entertain any rebuttle on that fact, at all. I will accept the truth in all other points, for and against. But I can't believe you can be racist for saying that a particular section of your own society is creating mounds of rubbish on the side of the road amongst other things.

In saying that, granted, they are marginalized and under-eductated but they make not attempt to help themselves or get out of the position they are in

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 2:11pm

OMcGovern wrote:

Flashing my lights once should not incite "road rage" or an attack.
There are plenty of things which aren't in the Rules of the Road which are accepted practise on Irish roads.

That is not one of them. There are many things that can incite someone to attack you, if they cut you off and you call them a bastard or honk your horn. In the Rules it clearly says in such an instance to carry on as before and not to get worked up on it.

What do you do if someone is driving with no lights on at nighttime ?

That instance it would be ok to flash your lights for a second.

Which is not the same as the senario you said earlier. You were clearly flashing your lights to show you were pissed off after the fact.

Again, go get the rules of the road and read them.

The knacker must've had false plates, or swapped around car regs in his junk yard.

:rolleyes:

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 2:14pm

Commander Vimes wrote:

when he says racism, he means prejudice.

Actually prejudice is just a part of Racism. Generally racism can also refer to having the power to carry out discriminatory practices.

And quit with the offensive jokes.

Sam Vimes · 29-12-2005 2:19pm

Hobbes wrote:

Actually prejudice is just a part of Racism. Generally racism can also refer to having the power to carry out discriminatory practices.

racism is against another race. its a subset of prejudice. racism is prejudice but predjudice is not necessarily racism.

Hobbes wrote:

And quit with the offensive jokes.

but i like the jokes

:v:

BigEejit · 29-12-2005 2:23pm

To answer the OP, I was on the Rosslare -> Fishguard ferry yesterday and stood in a queue to get a cabin onboard ... the first person in the queue was a traveller (was in posession of big hoopy earrings and spoke with a traveller accent - also had 3 kids with her who took every leaflet off the counter and threw them on the floor without reprimand) ... she was asked for her car registration number, she said she did not know it ... when asked for the make model she said it was a black BMW Jeep (her description exactly)....
Next in line was a Traveller male who also did not give his reg but said it was a Porsche (no model or colour)....

I begrudge no-one their possessions, but you would think that they would at least be able to identify them.

To whoever said that the traveller accent is similar to the Cork accent ... LOL, you must have heard a Cork Traveller(s) ... I am not from Cork but lived there for several years and never once heard a Cork accent similar to a travellers .... hehehe I dare you to stand in the middle of a bar in Cork city and say that

The next question is of course, how would I know a traveller accent? .. I lived near the bullring in Tralee (and also St. Brendans park) when i was attending the RTC in Tralee (rent close to those areas being FAR cheaper than anywhere else - because of the likelyhood of being a crime statistic) .... I also lived near them in Galway City (near Rahoon) ...
I have been pestered (looking for money for Halloween for 3 weeks either side othe actual date, sometimes by youths up to 18 years old),
threatened ("give me money or I'll slash the tires on your bike"),
cajoled ("buy this <crap item> so I can feed the childers" every week at my door because one of the idiots in the house bought a stolen radio),
attacked (me plus classmate had slate fragments thrown at us, friend gashed on back of leg and head)
and stolen from (burgled while away for Christmas - guards were called and we were told that 14 other properties in our estate were broken into by a gang from Rahoon - but only a few of the stolen items were found)

Have I ever had a good experience with a Traveller? no ... Do I know anyone who has had dealings with travellers had a good experience? no ....
Its not the few giving the majority a bad name

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 2:26pm

In saying that, granted, they are marginalized and under-eductated but they make not attempt to help themselves or get out of the position they are in

How do you know this? Can you back this up with anything to prove what you are saying?

Lets put it another way.

Darndale. Its not that far away from where I live now and I actually lived there for 2 years as a teenager. I know numerous people/friends who live there. None of them are scumbags, yet there was/is a small portion of scumbags in Darndale who would quite happly steal/hurt you for no reason.

However because of this minority it had a huge implication on the rest of the people who were sterotyped. So much so that most of the people I know in order to get jobs had to give an address that wasn't in darndale (normally a relation elsewhere in Dublin).

Even myself at the time going for work experience in Motarola where I pretty much had the job up until they asked me where I lived. At which point (no joke) they removed all the electronics they had on the desk in front of me, took one out of my hand I was examining and locked them into the drawer and then said I should try looking for a job that "is more of your standing".

You see when you have attitudes like that then you are continuing to create the problem that these people are living in.

You assume the people are criminals/scum so you treat them like such before they have a chance to show you otherwise. When you treat people like assholes they tend to be assholes back.

I have had numerous meetings with Travellers though my life. Yes there have been total assholes, but I don't let one asshole represent the rest.

Commander Vimes wrote:

racism is against another race. its a subset of prejudice. racism is prejudice but predjudice is not necessarily racism.

Believe what you want to believe then, I gave you a link to read on the subject if you want to remain ignorant there is nothing else I can do.

the_menace · 29-12-2005 2:32pm

Hobbes wrote:

Actually prejudice is just a part of Racism. Generally racism can also refer to having the power to carry out discriminatory practices.

If people got paid for talking absolute gibberish, you'd be a millionaire.

looperman1000 · 29-12-2005 2:40pm

all the pro traveller people on here must be either a traveller themselves, married to one, or just more useless PC human beings that have nothing better to do. how can you defend them? kop yourselves on, seriously.
everyone in ireland has a choice. they have been offered houses, the majority DONT want them. they get away with murder they really do. parasites doesnt even come close to what they should be called. human sponges, i dunno.
why do they have to continuously have to try and rip people off, they must think we are really thick.
and on the note about the little kid being knocked down, that just makes me feel downright sick, if that was my kid, i would get all the neighbourhood around me, and id tell you they wouldnt be outside my house for long, thats for sure.
they make me ashamed to be irish
sorry just my 2 cents worth

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 2:41pm

the_menace wrote:

If people got paid for talking absolute gibberish, you'd be a millionaire.

Yes thanks for that well thought out rebuttal. :rolleyes:

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 2:42pm

looperman1000 wrote:

hey have been offered houses, the majority DONT want them.

Can you tell me where you got this figure from?

looperman1000 · 29-12-2005 2:44pm

as where the pro traveller people defending them, are getting their figures from Mr PC. sorry i mean Mr Hobbes

Sam Vimes · 29-12-2005 2:48pm

Hobbes wrote:

How do you know this? Can you back this up with anything to prove what you are saying?

well, yes. they have the chance, and the legal responsibility, to send their children to school and they don't

living in darndale means nothing about you except that you live in darndale. classing you as the same as scum in your area is wrong. however, being a traveller means more than where they live. its a way of life. to use a similar example to the above, its like the difference between saying:

"he is from south carolina therefore he's a racist"
and
"he is in the kkk therefore he's a racist"

in one, the person has no choice in the matter so generalising is wrong. in the other, the person made a decision to join a racist organisation, so calling him racist is fair.

Hobbes · 29-12-2005 2:49pm

looperman1000 wrote:

as where the pro traveller people defending them, are getting their figures from Mr PC. sorry i mean Mr Hobbes

I am asking an honest question. Can you point me to the figures of travellers who were offered houses and accepted/rejected.

You appear to know, so do something different for a change and show me so I can see that you are correct.

Commander Vimes wrote:

living in darndale means nothing about you except that you live in darndale. classing you as the same as scum in your area is wrong.

Darndale housing was given out mostly to the poor + single mothers sometime back. So it was believed if you lived in Darndale you were poor and because you were poor you were not educated and probably a thief or drug dealer.

The attitudes have changed now but 20 years ago the attitude was much the same as the vitirol on this thread.

looperman1000 · 29-12-2005 2:54pm

Hobbes wrote:

I am asking an honest question. Can you point me to the figures of travellers who were offered houses and accepted/rejected.

You appear to know, so do something different for a change and show me so I can see that you are correct.

Im afraid that comes from the dublin housing authority and i am not at liberty to divulge that information as i could lose my job. but i can assure u it is safe for me to say tha majority, you can choose to believe it or not, it really does make no odds to me whatsover. but i do think you are fighting a losing battle as imho the majority of people in ireland/dublin would be anit rather than pro traveller.

travellers in flash cars??

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