Heavyweight Boxing

walshb · 30-05-2020 12:54pm

The Nal wrote: »

Growth hormone will do that

As I was positing that I was going to add this

Hoyfield's physique so clearly changed in the space of a few years

V Tyson he was like an oak tree. Just all solid muscle, and his neck and shoulders? Exactly the places you want to be sturdy in order to absorb a good punch

eagle eye · 30-05-2020 2:05pm

Lewis and Tyson only fought four of the same fighters if I'm not mistaken. Prime Tyson beat an unbeaten prime Tucker easily enough over the distance, Lewis beat a much older Tucker in similar fashion.
They both fought and ko'd Biggs.
Ruddock was ko'd first time by Tyson and then there was the war. Lewis ko'd him quickly but was Ruddock ever the same again after those two fights with Tyson?
Both ko'd Bruno.

Imo prime Tyson is at least on the same level as prime Lewis.

If we are going to take points away from Tyson then we have to for Lewis with his losses to Rahman in particular and McCall.

I have both in my top five. Lewis is my favourite fighter, not to be confused with rankings, I just loved his style.

walshb · 30-05-2020 2:31pm

I'd take a prime Tyson over a prime Lewis head to head 6-4 or 7-3....

Tyson's chin was rock solid. Lewis' was not rock solid, and Tyson can really hurt and close the show here...

A more granite like Lewis chin, and I would pick Lewis 6-4 or 7-3 in fights....

I think Mike's center of gravity, quick feet, bob and weave and fast attacking hands will see him get to Lewis's chin a fair bit....

Lewis has the height and range and jab, but Tyson has a deadly attacking defense....not at all easy to just beat Mike with a jab. You have got to put a pasting on him

Douglas had a great jab. Faster than Lewis's, and as heavy....That Tyson was not the same prepared Tyson from 1988. Same as any fighter who has an off night against a very well prepared opponent. Happened to Lennox in SA v Rahman.....

squinn2912 · 30-05-2020 6:47pm

When are we talking about Lewis’ prime? I think the older spoiler would’ve had a better chance of controlling and taking Tyson than when he was at peak condition. I think the Lewis who fought Bruno gets overwhelmed by prime Tyson and loses 8/10 times by mid round ko. later on at say Briggs stage I think is closer and can see him win on points but he’d need to have an on night. That’s against prime Tyson but he didn’t have to beat a prime version

Panda Killa · 30-05-2020 6:53pm

I was never Tyson's greatest fan.. but I did recognize his ability to clinically dismantle an opponent and just rip him to shreds....I do respect his boxing ability....and looking at the heavyweight scene today.....
Guys like Whyte, Ruiz, Parker etc would have been destroyed by Tyson.
If you look at the big heavyweights today... I think he'd dismantle the Brown Bomber.... probably ... probably take AJ ...and only Fury would have the guile and tactical nous to beat him.
But .. that's just my opinion

walshb · 30-05-2020 8:03pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

When are we talking about Lewis’ prime? I think the older spoiler would’ve had a better chance of controlling and taking Tyson than when he was at peak condition. I think the Lewis who fought Bruno gets overwhelmed by prime Tyson and loses 8/10 times by mid round ko. later on at say Briggs stage I think is closer and can see him win on points but he’d need to have an on night. That’s against prime Tyson but he didn’t have to beat a prime version

Best Lewis was mid to late 90s.

yourdeadwright · 30-05-2020 10:14pm

I hate when talk goes to Prime Lewis, Evander and Mike
Mike is one year younger than Lewis and 3 years younger than Evander, He never got close to there level again after the Douglas fight

The guy was one of the greatest to watch in Boxing and a ferocious finisher but he got beat when he fought the top guys and we can't rewrite history,

Its Mike fualt he turned into a quiter for whatever reason no one elses, the other two never did and always kept in shape,

Mike for me will always be the biggest what If in Boxing but sadly because of himself we may never know how could he COULD have been

Just hope the man's content and happy as he lead an extraordinary challenging life, He never seems out of the woods in terms of his mental state, You just wana see a guy be happy

walshb · 31-05-2020 9:01am

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I hate when talk goes to Prime Lewis, Evander and Mike
Mike is one year younger than Lewis and 3 years younger than Evander, He never got close to there level again after the Douglas fight

The guy was one of the greatest to watch in Boxing and a ferocious finisher but he got beat when he fought the top guys and we can't rewrite history,

Its Mike fualt he turned into a quiter for whatever reason no one elses, the other two never did and always kept in shape,

Mike for me will always be the biggest what If in Boxing but sadly because of himself we may never know how could he COULD have been

Just hope the man's content and happy as he lead an extraordinary challenging life, He never seems out of the woods in terms of his mental state, You just wana see a guy be happy

You do realize you are basing this quit jibe off one single fight of his 20 years career? The bite night..one single fight. One crazy reaction...

56 fights. 50 wins. One moment where he showed craziness and lost it.

I mean, does Roberto Duran also lose out when we assess him against the best?

Cyrus · 31-05-2020 11:33am

He quit against Mcbride aswell

walshb · 31-05-2020 12:04pm

Cyrus wrote: »

He quit against Mcbride aswell

That was his last fight. He got bashed...

I suppose Ali is a quitter because he failed to come out for rd 11 or 12 v Holmes..Can’t remember exact rd. Yes, his corner called it..

walshb · 31-05-2020 12:23pm

And if we are being technical and correct, he didn’t quit v Holyfield. He was disqualified for fouling...

Bad character shown in the fight..

Cyrus · 31-05-2020 1:00pm

walshb wrote: »

That was his last fight. He got bashed...

I suppose Ali is a quitter because he failed to come out for rd 11 or 12 v Holmes..Can’t remember exact rd. Yes, his corner called it..

You can make excuses for it but just pointing it out you appeared to have forgotten

eagle eye · 31-05-2020 1:22pm

Cyrus wrote:

You can make excuses for it but just pointing it out you appeared to have forgotten

Tyson's prime years were before he went to jail. After jail he was never the same fighter.
His career before jail is what we're considering and it puts him in the top five all time.

The Nal · 31-05-2020 1:50pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Tyson's prime years were before he went to jail. After jail he was never the same fighter.
His career before jail is what we're considering and it puts him in the top five all time.

He was KO'd by Buster Douglas before he went to jail.

eagle eye · 31-05-2020 2:02pm

The Nal wrote:

He was KO'd by Buster Douglas before he went to jail.

That's one fight.
Lewis was ko'd by Rahman and McCall.

I hate knocking Lewis but it's just I rate the two of them very close to each other all time.

walshb · 31-05-2020 3:23pm

Cyrus wrote: »

You can make excuses for it but just pointing it out you appeared to have forgotten

That’s fine. But there should always be some context around these things. Same way I would put context to Duran’s quitting v Leonard, or Vitali’s quitting v Byrd. There is context in many instances...

Tyson was old, well past it, and really a complete shell of his prime. In the last fight if his career against a younger and bigger and stronger man..He simply could not go on...

walshb · 31-05-2020 3:52pm

The Nal wrote: »

He was KO'd by Buster Douglas before he went to jail.

Yes, he was....and Joe Louis was knocked out by Max Schmeling....

All the tops lads suffered losses and set backs...

Tyson always seems to be judged far more harshly. That's juts how I see it...

And I don't like the man one bit.....

The Nal · 31-05-2020 4:16pm

walshb wrote: »

Yes, he was....and Joe Louis was knocked out by Max Schmeling....

He was. And he avenged that defeat.

walshb wrote: »

All the tops lads suffered losses and set backs...

Tyson always seems to be judged far more harshly. That's juts how I see it...

And I don't like the man one bit.....

I think the opposite. A lot of people would think hes the best boxer ever. Not just at HW.

I think its fair to not have him top 5. Hes just being judged as everyone else is. Rivals they beat in their prime, did they get off the floor to win, come from behind to win, avenged defeats etc.

Lots of fighters did all of above. Tyson didn't. If we're talking about the top top lads, Tyson isn't one of them.

Anyway this talk of a comeback is getting silly. Assume its just all for publicity.

eagle eye · 31-05-2020 4:58pm

Tyson '87, '88, '89 beats any other heavyweight in history.

walshb · 31-05-2020 5:38pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Tyson '87, '88, '89 beats any other heavyweight in history.

I don’t disagree...certainly a great chance to.

yourdeadwright · 02-06-2020 11:42am

walshb wrote: »

You do realize you are basing this quit jibe off one single fight of his 20 years career? The bite night..one single fight. One crazy reaction...

56 fights. 50 wins. One moment where he showed craziness and lost it.

I mean, does Roberto Duran also lose out when we assess him against the best?

No no your taking my quitter comment literal,
I mean in his big fights against Holyfield and Lewis ,
When the fights got tuff and he couldn't just blast them out of there he quit doing what he did well ,He just came apart he never had the mentally to push through ,he quit on himself,

nacho libre · 02-06-2020 12:30pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Tyson '87, '88, '89 beats any other heavyweight in history.

I am not so sure. I can think of two fighters who would have beaten Tyson in those years. If Tyson couldn't get you out of there he struggled, and he would have struggled against a prime Ali and Lewis. I think a fight with Vitali would have been difficult too.

The Nal · 02-06-2020 12:54pm

nacho libre wrote: »

I am not so sure. I can think of two fighters who would have beaten Tyson in those years. If Tyson couldn't get you out of there he struggled, and he would have struggled against a prime Ali and Lewis. I think a fight with Vitali would have been difficult too.

Liston from 1959 to 1963.

walshb · 02-06-2020 1:20pm

The Nal wrote: »

Liston from 1959 to 1963.

Seriously, Liston hasn't a hope against Tyson

Tyson finds his chin and cleans him out.....

Liston's only chance is KO, and no way he gets it...Tyson had a an iron chin....

I give Liston 3 rds tops against a peak Tyson

And Liston is not better than Douglas. Douglas in Tokyo was better than any Liston that fought....bigger and taller as well....and heavy handed.

The whole Liston mystique was greatly exaggerated.

walshb · 02-06-2020 1:24pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

No no your taking my quitter comment literal,
I mean in his big fights against Holyfield and Lewis ,
When the fights got tuff and he couldn't just blast them out of there he quit doing what he did well ,He just came apart he never had the mentally to push through ,he quit on himself,

Let's just get rid of the Lewis fight....seriously. He was clearly a shell of the fighter he was in the late 80s....clearly.....

Lewis just bashed him into submission.....that was not a quit job at all....Lewis pulverized (a clearly well over the hill Tyson) to the mat...

Lewis in the early noughties was the best HW on earth. Lewis' peak was stretched across several years....he was very very very good for several years.

Mike was excellent for four years, and very good for a few....then just a shell for the remaining years....all this needs to be taken into consideration.

Tyson's career:

1986-1998 he was grade A +
1990-1991 he was A -

1995 he was a B (post prison)
1996-1997 he was a B -

1999 onward he was just a shell....more so as the years passed

By the time he fought Lewis in 2002 he was at D - I'd say....Lewis was still up around B + territory.

The Nal · 02-06-2020 2:37pm

walshb wrote: »

Seriously, Liston hasn't a hope against Tyson

Tyson finds his chin and cleans him out.....

Liston's only chance is KO, and no way he gets it...Tyson had a an iron chin....

I give Liston 3 rds tops against a peak Tyson

And Liston is not better than Douglas. Douglas in Tokyo was better than any Liston that fought....bigger and taller as well....and heavy handed.

The whole Liston mystique was greatly exaggerated.

We don't know for certain either way, again, fantasy match ups are just that, but the bit in bold. WTF.

Douglas was allowed to be that good in Tokyo because Tyson just stood in front of him. Tyson had given up moving by that stage. His body language changed in the first 90 seconds of round 1.

Prime Liston always came forward and would've had a great chance against anyone with that jab.

yourdeadwright · 02-06-2020 2:48pm

walshb wrote: »

Let's just get rid of the Lewis fight....seriously. He was clearly a shell of the fighter he was in the late 80s....clearly.....

Lewis just bashed him into submission.....that was not a quit job at all....Lewis pulverized (a clearly well over the hill Tyson) to the mat...

Lewis in the early noughties was the best HW on earth. Lewis' peak was stretched across several years....he was very very very good for several years.

Mike was excellent for four years, and very good for a few....then just a shell for the remaining years....all this needs to be taken into consideration.

Tyson's career:

1986-1998 he was grade A +
1990-1991 he was A -

1995 he was a B (post prison)
1996-1997 he was a B -

1999 onward he was just a shell....more so as the years passed

By the time he fought Lewis in 2002 he was at D - I'd say....Lewis was still up around B + territory.

See that what annoys me people say ah forget about that fight Mike was over the hill, it was Mike fault he looked like **** Lewis was a year older and way better ,
If you wana get in there and fight and say this that and the other you better back it up , not say ah well i was over the hill then ,

yourdeadwright · 02-06-2020 2:56pm

The Nal wrote: »

We don't know for certain either way, again, fantasy match ups are just that, but the bit in bold. WTF.

Douglas was allowed to be that good in Tokyo because Tyson just stood in front of him. Tyson had given up moving by that stage. His body language changed in the first 90 seconds of round 1.

Prime Liston always came forward and would've had a great chance against anyone with that jab.

You hit the nail on the head about fantasy match ups,
There so stupid because what if you get the Tyson who turned up v Douglas, the AJ that turned up for Ruiz one, Them performances are also part of them fighters ,that is also what they are capable on fight night,

Morrison J · 02-06-2020 3:18pm

walshb wrote: »

Seriously, Liston hasn't a hope against Tyson

Tyson finds his chin and cleans him out.....

Liston's only chance is KO, and no way he gets it...Tyson had a an iron chin....

I give Liston 3 rds tops against a peak Tyson

And Liston is not better than Douglas. Douglas in Tokyo was better than any Liston that fought....bigger and taller as well....and heavy handed.

The whole Liston mystique was greatly exaggerated.

That's a bloody massive call to make.

Foreman always said that Liston battered him in sparring. Was one of the few fighters who forced him to box because he couldn't take Liston's power. Ali said that Liston hit harder than Foreman too.

Liston would be a problem for Mike. Mike isn't getting inside and manhandling Liston like he did so many others. Not a chance. Mike has to find a way inside that rangy, powerful jab too. Not an ounce of doubt in my mind that Liston tames Mike considerably. He isn't walking through him in 3 rounds. No way.

It's a good competitive 50/50 I think. Think Mike's hand speed can give Liston plenty of problems but Mike would need to be in tip top condition to win.

walshb · 02-06-2020 5:34pm

Morrison J wrote: »

That's a bloody massive call to make.

Foreman always said that Liston battered him in sparring. Was one of the few fighters who forced him to box because he couldn't take Liston's power. Ali said that Liston hit harder than Foreman too.

Liston would be a problem for Mike. Mike isn't getting inside and manhandling Liston like he did so many others. Not a chance. Mike has to find a way inside that rangy, powerful jab too. Not an ounce of doubt in my mind that Liston tames Mike considerably. He isn't walking through him in 3 rounds. No way.

It's a good competitive 50/50 I think. Think Mike's hand speed can give Liston plenty of problems but Mike would need to be in tip top condition to win.

Tyson at 220 lbs easily gets inside Liston's jab.....it's a jab, for chrissake...let's not make it out to be some nuclear warhead.

Liston gets ridiculously overrated....I have seen the Ali fights. Liston barely laid a glove on Ali, so Ali's claim doesn't mean anything here in terms of Liston v Tyson. Both hit hard. Tyson for me a far deadlier overall puncher.

He beat a blown up MW, in Floyd Patterson......that's about it......

When faced with a bigger man in Clay, and then Ali he was exposed...

Tyson just goes straight to Liston...this fight cannot last....And Mike's chin for me was very sturdy

Hits as hard, if not harder. Far more aggressive, and a lethal finisher....who won't be able to spoil like a Tucker or Smith. Too really big men for Mike.

Heavyweight Boxing

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