Heavyweight Boxing

Would nobody put Marciano in the top 10?

Marciano, Joe Louis, Wladimir, Dempsey and arguably Tunney would all be included in top 10 for me too as well as the aforementioned above. It's really tough to rate them especially given the eras they fought in.

Liamo57 wrote: »

Boxing is a sport enjoyed by knackers and the only people interested in it are knackers.

Thanks for the input you old fart

eagle eye wrote: »

Crikey, Tregor Berbick, Pinklon Thomas, James Smith, unbeaten Tony Tucker, unbeaten Tyrell Biggs, Larry Holmes, Frank Bruno and unbeaten Michael Spinks. That's a big list. If he retired after those fights he's maybe winning the argument for GOAT.

They were all bums, is what the Tyson detractors will say.......

Just on Tyson you fair weather fans where creaming themselves over him hitting pads a lot of us o here thought its a crazy idea for him to come back,
Well I seen he did some wrestling thing the other day, and it 100% cemented the idea of him coming back is outlandish and sad he could barley move on his legs ,
He may have the upper body of a ripped 20 year old ( wonder did Jesus juice help) but the legs don't lie he looked every day of his age and then some,

Tbf and I respect Teddy Atlas a lot but he has a heavy bias against Mike

The Nal wrote:

Going by 2, Tyson doesn't get near the top 10 all time HWs in terms of accomplishments and wouldn't be in the top 50 boxers ever.

He unified the titles, beat three unbeaten fighters in world title fights including Michael Spinks. I listed off a bunch of fighters he beat. He accomplished more at a very young age than most did in their careers.

Good thread here on Iron Mike

Would Mike Tyson have had sustained success against today's Super Heavy weights?

walshb wrote: »

His win over an undefeated Tucker bests those three examples.

And Tyson beat a better version of Ruddock than anybody..

Depends on your argument I suppose. I'm kind of taking both the quality of the opposition at the time and the fashion in which they beat him into account. Don't think it was Tyson's most impressive performance against Tucker who reportedly had a broken hand too. You could argue any of Tucker, Berbick, Holmes, Spinks, Ruddock being in his top 3 wins imo. Solid fighters but hardly a murderers row when stacked up against the top 5 I have above in fairness.

Louis' top 3 isn't really that special. Only one fighter I'd have top 20 all time there but the fact he was dominant for such a long period has to hold a lot of weight. There's literally zero argument for putting Tyson over him all time.

walshb wrote: »

The only argument to put him over Louis is that he knocks Joe out 99 times out of hundred, and the other on points....the KOs all very early.. plus, he beats every Louis opponent.

Well if you're using the head to head argument then it makes no sense that you have Marciano in your top 10. You hardly think the 5'10 Marciano beats a prime Wladimir Klitschko for example do you?

walshb wrote: »

I am not only using head to head.

It’s part of overall consideration and criteria..

Right but the only way you can really have Tyson top 5 is by putting a lot of weight on hypothetical head to heads when he's in his very short prime. Any other criteria and you can't remotely make an argument. His wins and longetivity don't stack up.

In regards to H2H against a prime Tyson though..

Ali a strong favorite. I'd actually favour the 70s version of Ali moreso I think. Could spoil his way through the early rounds was made of tougher stuff at that point of his career. Tyson wouldnt be be able to bully him. Think Ali probably stops him late or wins wide on the cards.

Foreman a slight favorite imo. Think he'd break Tyson's heart and stop him late tbh. Pretty awful matchup for Tyson. He won't out tough Foreman.

Lennox probably a 50/50. Lennox height, feet and defence would be difficult for Tyson. Think the Tucker fight showed some of these potential issues Tyson would have facing a taller opponent. I don't doubt Tyson getting inside and landing on Lewis who could definitely be hurt is a possibility though. 50/50 imo.

Holyfield is a tough one because it's hard to gauge when Holyfield's true prime at heavyweight was. Don't think he fully grew into being a heavyweight till the mid-90s where he traded some of his athleticism and speed to become stronger at the weight. Think if they fought pre Tyson's prison sentence Tyson may have won but I think if you put mid 90's Holyfield against prime Tyson he beats him. Too strong, too robust, brings Tyson into deep waters and beats him.

I agree I think Tyson would probably beat Louis within 6. Not a complete given but I'd make him a decent favorite.

selectamatic wrote: »

Yes.

I've said it recently enough on here but those two fights are fantastic windows into Mike's grit and determination. Footwork and head movement not a patch on his 86-89 years (his own fault of course) but he just got in there and went to war. Ruddock in fantastic shape at the time and not a bit intimidated either. Great all action fights with not a backward step taken.

It's a Tyson trait that is criminally underrated by many experts. Sure it faded in the latter half of his career but some would have you believe he never possessed any at all which is very wrong imo.

Absolutely spot on. Been saying same thing years..

He only showed quit post prison... the bite incident, and suddenly folks latch to this saying he never showed grit and heart and fight. Utter horse****.

Morrison J wrote: »

Right but the only way you can really have Tyson top 5 is by putting a lot of weight on hypothetical head to heads when he's in his very short prime. Any other criteria and you can't remotely make an argument. His wins and longetivity don't stack up.

In regards to H2H against a prime Tyson though..

Ali a strong favorite. I'd actually favour the 70s version of Ali moreso I think. Could spoil his way through the early rounds was made of tougher stuff at that point of his career. Tyson wouldnt be be able to bully him. Think Ali probably stops him late or wins wide on the cards.

Foreman a slight favorite imo. Think he'd break Tyson's heart and stop him late tbh. Pretty awful matchup for Tyson. He won't out tough Foreman.

Lennox probably a 50/50. Lennox height, feet and defence would be difficult for Tyson. Think the Tucker fight showed some of these potential issues Tyson would have facing a taller opponent. I don't doubt Tyson getting inside and landing on Lewis who could definitely be hurt is a possibility though. 50/50 imo.

Holyfield is a tough one because it's hard to gauge when Holyfield's true prime at heavyweight was. Don't think he fully grew into being a heavyweight till the mid-90s where he traded some of his athleticism and speed to become stronger at the weight. Think if they fought pre Tyson's prison sentence Tyson may have won but I think if you put mid 90's Holyfield against prime Tyson he beats him. Too strong, too robust, brings Tyson into deep waters and beats him.

I agree I think Tyson would probably beat Louis within 6. Not a complete given but I'd make him a decent favorite.

Good stuff this

The Holyfield fight is very good, and something I feel and agree with

Holyfield mid 90s may have been a bit slower at putting shots together, but his body was like oak. S0 physically sturdy.

Prime v prime? Well, Mike from 1986-1988 for me beats the early 1990s Holyfield, and possibly via KO. Bert Cooper, a similar stylist to Mike, had Holyfield badly hurt, and he is not near the dangerous hitter that a prime Tyson was. Bowe had Holyfield badly hurt, albeit rd 10 or 11, late in the fight.

Holyfield had a good chin, but the Cooper fight really showed that he could be almost out......Tyson can take that Holyfield out. Mike was very fast, serious power, and excellent combinations...fit as a fiddle too. Far more dangerous than he was in 1995. Far more

Mike and Evander fought when both were past their absolute prime, but Evander was not as past his best as Mike was, betting odds aside.

The mid 90s Holyfield would likely last 12 rds with a prime Tyson, but would he win on points? Tyson was busy, fit, iron chinned and could box, and if a 1995 Tyson goes 11 hard rds before crumbling, then the far better 1980s version does not get stopeed. No way. It's either Mike via KO, Evander via points, or Mike via points

I will go with 1980s Mike via points over mid 90s Holyfield