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Peter Casey believes Travellers should not be recognised as an ethnic minority

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    #302
    dulux99
    Registered Users Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭dulux99


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    For the record: I'm certainly not defending all travellers - anyone breaking the law should be dealt with in accordance with the law.
    I'm just disturbed by the mob mentality tone here, that feels like it's heading down the pitchforks route.

    No. Its not. Disdain for these people is not something that begun this morning. As I said earlier, this has been going on for generations. The flames have been stoked this morning due to the rare case whereby someone going for public office actually reflected the average Joe's views on it.

    I don't think anyone woke up this morning with no problem with certain members of the community and then decided they didn't like them anymore.


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    #303
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Deleted User wrote: »
    For the record: I'm certainly not defending all travellers - anyone breaking the law should be dealt with in accordance with the law.
    I'm just disturbed by the mob mentality tone here, that feels like it's heading down the pitchforks route.

    I don't see a mob mentality, I see a lot of people tired of having to put up with a section of society that seems to be free live a lifestyle that includes
    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Im anti fraud, theft and other criminality, intimidation, antisocial behaviour, tresspassing, domestic violence, aversion to education, entitlement, interfamilial violence, animal abuse, pollution and waste dumping.

    All the while expecting this lifestyle to be funded by the rest of us.

    And you know what, I wouldn't even mind so much if they decided to sh*t on society if it wasn't for the fact they simultaneously expected that very same society to treat them with respect and keep them in the lifestyles they are accustomed to.

    It's all entitlements and no obligations.


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    #304
    AnneFrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    Uncharted wrote: »
    Yawwwn.

    Echo


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    #305
    Babooshka
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Babooshka


    Deleted User wrote: »
    For the record: I'm certainly not defending all travellers - anyone breaking the law should be dealt with in accordance with the law.
    I'm just disturbed by the mob mentality tone here, that feels like it's heading down the pitchforks route.

    That's your spin on it though, I think there are some level headed people giving their views, some angry ones, probably because of past experiences. There is mob mentality when it comes to sweeping stuff under the rug, especially out in RTE.....


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    #306
    eeepaulo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    Dubh Geannain wrote: »
    I'd a little traveller kid call to the door...
    It was then I realised it was a scam and that good for nothing Loch Ness Monster up to his old tricks.

    I've saved you some time for next time


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    #307
    Vincent Vega
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Vincent Vega


    dulux99 wrote: »
    And such is life these days. You can only be presedential material if you pander to the party line and speak in riddles and half truths. The man spoken the truth and apparently because of this he's not presedential material. Typical.

    Well, with regards to the ethnicity comment, not really.

    From the article:
    History was made last year when the Dáil gave formal recognition to Travellers as a distinct ethnic group within the State.

    However, Mr Casey said: "That's a load of nonsense. They are not from Romany or whatever."

    Sounds like an opinion to me, and an off the cuff one at that, or whatever.

    But it seems to be good enough confirmation for many here to celebrate, so I guess he at least has that to be proud of.

    Here's a something to read regarding the ethnicity claim

    Genomic insights into the population structure and history of the Irish Travellers.

    and the gist of it here.


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    #308
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    yosser hughes wrote: »
    His point about 'ethnic minority' status is fair. There's actually NO scientific evidence to back this up and it was rushed in. It's a total con.


    They have a different cultural traditions which classifies them as an ethnicity.


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    #309
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They have a different cultural traditions which classifies them as an ethnicity.

    Would people from Gaeltacht regions be an ethnicity as they speak Irish? I think language is one of the criteria


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    #310
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Vincent Vega wrote: »
    Well, with regards to the ethnicity comment, not really.

    From the article:


    Sounds like an opinion to me, and an off the cuff one at that, or whatever.

    But it seems to be good enough confirmation for many here to celebrate, so I guess he at least has that to be proud of.

    Here's a something to read regarding the ethnicity claim

    Genomic insights into the population structure and history of the Irish Travellers.

    and the gist of it here.

    What the article essentially says is that they are different ethnically because they either separated themselves or were separated and started having lots of consanguineous marriages.
    When populations are small and tend not to mix with other communities, the gene frequencies can change very quickly and that extents the genetic distance.

    So basically if the population of Waterford decided that from now on nobody marries anybody outside of Waterford in a few hundred years they would show similar difference to the rest of the population...


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    #311
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    wexie wrote: »
    Many of them do occupy someone else's land and then are very hard to remove or leave lots of rubbish and/or damage.
    How many "many" does it take to elevate anecdote, to a sweeping characterisation of an entire group?
    The majority of them aren't exactly tax compliant.
    The majority? Really? Source for this claim?
    And they are indeed not from anywhere else, from what I understand the only thing the DNA analysis came up with is that they have a habit of intermingling a little bit closer than most of us.
    I think your misunderstandings start with what an "ethnic group" is. It doesn't mean "they're from foreign". (Though we all are, if you go back far enough...)

    Secondly, that's not what the DNA analysis found at all. "[Jim Wilson from the University of Edinburgh] said Travellers are a distinct genetic group as different from the settled Irish as Icelanders are from Norwegians." https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/dna-study-travellers-a-distinct-ethnicity-156324.html

    Thirdly, you might want to consider the implications of your "ha-ha, they're all inbred!" jibe, beyond the spin you sought to put on it.


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    #312
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    Secondly, that's not what the DNA analysis found at all. "[Jim Wilson from the University of Edinburgh] said Travellers are a distinct genetic group as different from the settled Irish as Icelanders are from Norwegians." https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/dna-study-travellers-a-distinct-ethnicity-156324.html

    Thirdly, you might want to consider the implications of your "ha-ha, they're all inbred!" jibe, beyond the spin you sought to put on it.

    As from the article linked a few posts up :
    The genetic distance that exists between Travellers and the settled population can be attributed to genetic drift, brought on by hundreds of years of genetic isolation combined with a decreasing population size.

    Irish Travellers have a history of nomadism, where cousin marriages (consanguineous marriages) are commonplace and they are socially isolated from ‘settled’ Irish people.

    When populations are small and tend not to mix with other communities, the gene frequencies can change very quickly and that extents the genetic distance.

    (which, incidentally gives an entirely different timeline although referencing the same study)


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    #313
    maxwell smart
    Registered Users Posts: 1,939 ✭✭✭maxwell smart


    wexie wrote: »

    So basically if the population of Waterford decided that from now on nobody marries anybody outside of Waterford in a few hundred years they would show similar difference to the rest of the population...

    If all it takes is to have a certain location only breed with people also from that location then Ireland is fill of ethnic minorities.


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    #314
    Vincent Vega
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Vincent Vega


    wexie wrote: »
    What the article essentially says is that they are different ethnically because they either separated themselves or were separated and started having lots of consanguineous marriages.



    So basically if the population of Waterford decided that from now on nobody marries anybody outside of Waterford in a few hundred years they would show similar difference to the rest of the population...

    Well sure, if the people of Waterford had their own distinct traditions and unique language spanning generations maybe. :rolleyes:


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    #315
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    naughtb4 wrote: »
    Would people from Gaeltacht regions be an ethnicity as they speak Irish? I think language is one of the criteria


    Yeah they probably could get ethnic status if they pushed it. I did a quick google and the definition is very loose. There doesn't need to be scientific evidence as yosser hughes suggested. Technically travelers are an ethnicity. Recognising them officially is another matter altogether.


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    #316
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    naughtb4 wrote: »
    Would people from Gaeltacht regions be an ethnicity as they speak Irish? I think language is one of the criteria

    It's barely a criterion for being a Gaeltacht region in the first place these days, much less a person from it. Where your house is can't feasibly be the entire basis for your identification as a member of an ethnic group.

    Being primarily an Irish-language speaker certainly could be. If there were enough left and that were how they identified...


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    #317
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Of all the candidates, I thought he was the least suitable........until now that is


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    #318
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Vincent Vega wrote: »
    Well sure, if the people of Waterford had their own distinct traditions and unique language spanning generations maybe. :rolleyes:

    What traditions would that be?

    That are worth keeping that is? And by that I mean that don't negatively impact their own health and wellbeing, still somewhat fit in a modern society and aren't contrary to any laws or morals?

    I've asked this question before and I think literally the only thing anyone could come up with was 'they sing'.

    (oh and yes I know about tinsmithing, I think it's fascinating and certainly needs to be kept as a skill, but it seems even travelers don't seem to keen on that)


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    #319
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    I look forward to Michael D letting the travellers graze ponies on the lawn at the Aras


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    #320
    maxwell smart
    Registered Users Posts: 1,939 ✭✭✭maxwell smart


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    I look forward to Michael D letting the travellers graze ponies on the lawn at the Aras

    While he reads poetry to them and they attend one of his garden parties.
    A large group of travellers at a party, probably with free alcohol. Sure what could possibly go wrong??


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    #321
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Technically travelers are an ethnicity. Recognising them officially is another matter altogether.

    Something being true isn't the worst starting point for making it "official", either.

    Consider how this looks from elsewhere. Or indeed, how comparable cases look to us. "Yeah, they're technically an ethnic group, and they're sky-high and wildly out of line with the rest of the population on all the deprivation indices. But if we made it official, it'd go down badly with some of our more reactionary elements."


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    #322
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Eggs For Dinner wrote: »
    Of all the candidates, I thought he was the least suitable........until now that is

    He was 6th best, now he's started digging, and has ended up seventh out of field of six.


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    #323
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    "Yeah, they're technically an ethnic group, and they're sky-high and wildly out of line with the rest of the population on all the deprivation indices. But if we made it official, it'd go down badly with some of our more reactionary elements."

    And how has granting them ethnicity status made any difference to that?


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    #324
    Birdie Num Num
    Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Birdie Num Num


    Vincent Vega wrote: »
    Well sure, if the people of Waterford had their own distinct traditions and unique language spanning generations maybe. :rolleyes:

    But that does and has existed throughout the country. There are and have been varying dialects of the Irish language and traditions throughout the country and on our Islands.


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    #325
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    wexie wrote: »
    As from the article linked a few posts up :
    Your point being?
    (which, incidentally gives an entirely different timeline although referencing the same study)

    The timeline estimates do seem very vague, or to put the kindest spin on it, broad. But they're pretty consistently earlier than the previously popular "Famine Era" folk tales, and other such accounts.


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    #326
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    wexie wrote: »
    And how has granting them ethnicity status made any difference to that?

    Have done damn little for the welfare of Travellers is a poor argument for doing less.


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    #327
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    wexie wrote: »
    I don't see a mob mentality, [...]

    And mobs are well-known for being good at self-awareness and self-diagnosis, of course.

    I had a Trumpy type recently tell me that an angry crowd chanting "lock her up" (and it's not just about Clinton any more!) wasn't a "mob". But that some senators doing their job under the constitution was.

    It's some bias, that thar confirmation bias!


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    #328
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    superg wrote: »
    Ireland and the world in general is too PC.

    Jeeeez.

    I hope no-one is playing the "talking in reactionary clichés about 'too PC'" drinking game along at home with this thread.


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    #329
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,730 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Allinall wrote: »
    Haven’t seen any of this Cuban or Nicaraguan outrage myself.

    Could you point to some examples, or are you just assuming offense on behalf of others?

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1127/834767-flanagan-castro-higgins/

    His 'great sadness' at the death of a dictator, then went to the funeral as if to show support for all the human rights abuses committed by Castro.
    It did not go unnoticed
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/president-higgins-rejects-criticism-of-fidel-castro-tribute-1.2883973

    President Higgins doesn't tell the truth, he says he speaks up for universal human rights, yet up to very recently on president.ie he had a picture of himself and Daniel Ortega there for all to see as if it was something to be proud of.
    The picture has since been removed from https://president.ie/en/media-library/photos/michael-d.-higgins-through-the-years
    Because that is easier than actually condemning a man who has death squads, a man that Michael D Higgins had visit his home in Galway.
    Michael D Higgins lacks the moral fortitude to continue as president, he needs to condemn his friends who murder people, rather than giving them support in the knowledge most people are ignorant of the actions of Daniel Ortega and people like the Castros, Chavez when he died etc, people are fleeing these countries, but the president can count on people not caring about his support of human rights abusers elsewhere, because the Irish media is in his pocket, and want him re-elected, sure we have seen people from the media tweeting from the Aras during his time in office about being there for tea.
    Michael D will get re-elected without questioning of why he has not condemned his friend in Nicaragua who runs death squads.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/nicaragua-dropped-from-list-as-president-higgins-visits-central-american-countries-1.1567519
    Mr Higgins said that originally he had also planned to stop in Nicaragua, whose leader Daniel Ortega he has hosted in Ireland.

    “Unfortunately the host side ran into some diary difficulties which included, for example, the fact of whether the president is in the country during the period when the visit is taking place,” he said. “In the case of Nicaragua, that is for the future,” Mr Higgins added.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/stop-letting-michael-d-off-lightly-here-are-the-questions-he-should-be-made-to-answer-37205387.html

    I find it ironic that Michael D condemned Peter Casey, but we still wait for him to condemn his friend who runs death squads.


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    #330
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    Have done damn little for the welfare of Travellers is a poor argument for doing less.

    I'm not arguing for doing less, I'm arguing doing different.

    yes travelers as a group have an awful lot of issues, not all of them self inflicted, although their insistence on a lifestyle that is trying very hard to stay out of society and has proven to be harmful to their health isn't doing them any good.

    But the way things are being done, up to and including of granting them minority status aren't exactly achieving stellar results are they? And when I say 'the way things are being done' I mean that to include but settled and traveler people.


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    #331
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CrankyHaus wrote: »
    The establishment response to Casey's comments has vindicated them more than silence ever would.

    I particularly liked this doublethink from the Director of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties (ICCL) Liam Herrick, who in the Irish Times said political freedom of speech was extremely important during an election campaign.

    “However, comments that stereotype or demean a whole ethnic group can never be acceptable...we welcome the strong condemnation of Peter Casey’s comments by other candidates".

    Just think about that for a second: the unelected head of our taxpayer funded human rights quango believes certain fact-based comments "can never be acceptable" and applauds their condemnation by the rest of the establishment.


    some of what peter said isn't fact-based though. it's opinion-based.
    Eggs For Dinner wrote: »
    Of all the candidates, I thought he was the least suitable........until now that is

    it's not as if he is going to be expressing such opinions if he becomes president, so how has he hbecome more suitable today, because of his comments, when he was the least suitable yesterday?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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