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Public/Private worker gap to grow

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    #122
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Nothing " fantastical" about it

    Still not giving a source for your nonsense claims, though. I wonder why...


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    #123
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Hmmm. So, suddenly you were talking about "typical" when you said this:



    As has been said, please desist from the decidedly thick arguments.

    What's " thick" about the question, il ask again.

    When has anyone in the public sector gone to prison for " screwing up"?


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    #124
    RWCNT
    Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    salonfire wrote: »
    How much would a nurse do on an empty stomach?

    They certainly wouldn't do much for the wages food and retail staff are on. That's the real wealth gap.

    Jesus christ, this attitude is a politician's wet dream.

    You do realise that private sector workers can strike as well?


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    #125
    relax carry on
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭relax carry on


    Just in case anyone forgot what this thread was supposed to be about, here's the OP
    Pkiernan wrote: »
    Public so called workers to get full parental pay for 7 weeks while us idiots in the private sector will just get the dole equivalent.

    WTF is this government doing?

    In case anyone is interested, there's nothing in the parental leave proposal distinguishing between public or private sector workers.

    Apart from that, the thread has flowed along the normal lines of the usual "public sector bad" "private sector good" ramblings. Can we just leave it at, it doesn't matter what each side says, nobody's position is going to change?


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    #126
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    What's " thick" about the question, il ask again.

    When has anyone in the public sector gone to prison for " screwing up"?

    Or even lost their job or valuable gold plated pension?


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    #127
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    Public servants are just better people all round. Harder workers, more contentious, better behaved, more educated, more helpful, the list goes on.

    None of this private sector nonsense of 'working' from home then dossing about for the day.

    You all should be more grateful.


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    #128
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,774 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    RWCNT wrote: »
    Jesus christ, this attitude is a politician's wet dream.

    You do realise that private sector workers can strike as well?

    If they had the balls.


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    #129
    Teddy Daniels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭Teddy Daniels


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Unfortunately we don't live in a society of equal opportunities, some will always have poorer opportunities of employment and pay

    Of course we do, you mean equality of outcome and that’s not possaible.


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    #130
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,876 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Teddy Daniels wrote: »
    Of course we do, you mean equality of outcome and that’s not possaible.

    we dont live in an equal opportunity society, we may never will, we do tell ourselves we do though. a poorer person does not have the same opportunities in life as a more wealthier person


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    #131
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    I joined the public sector a few years ago after 10+ challenging but enjoyable years in the private sector. The pace and demands of the private sector were starting to impact my health. There is honestly no going back now. The work-life balance is constantly good. There must be an election coming if the government are talking about sweeteners.
    Many public servants don't like to discuss the public sector problems openly but I do think the 'productivity' problems are being resolved slowly but surely. It's still very very difficult to adequately manage the 'dossers' which can be frustrating but I also think the calibre of people joining is improving.


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    #132
    Mr. teddywinkles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    listermint wrote: »
    Nah. It's actually a poor point.

    Two reasons.

    1. He could get a job in the public sector if he wanted.

    2. He could get a job in a private sector company that gives these benefits. Mine gives 8 weeks



    His point is stupid. He has choices..as does everyone


    But sure look he decided to get angry. That helps .....

    Yad swear ya were ordering a pint when it comes to getting a decent job in this country.


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    #133
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,507 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Snow Garden wrote: »
    Many public servants don't like to discuss the public sector problems openly but I do think the 'productivity' problems are being resolved slowly but surely. It's still very very difficult to adequately manage the 'dossers' which can be frustrating but I also think the calibre of people joining is improving.

    People are conflating two issues. The only way to run the public service is to pay a proper rate and expect proper work for it. Instead we get politically determined pay and no real interest in running things properly, politicians preferring be able to "intervene" rather than have a service where that intervention is not necessary.


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    #134
    Mr. teddywinkles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    Augeo wrote: »
    Generally the someones are lacking in intellect, work ethic or motivation..... Quite often all 3.....

    Intellect cannot be achieved so doesn't count. It's genetics. To motivate one's self yes and develop good work ethic yes.
    I see the intellect part the biggest draw back with people getting better jobs.
    Amazes me though that as smart as some people are they can't see that and take it for granted.


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    #135
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    backspin. wrote: »

    None of this private sector nonsense of 'working' from home then dossing about for the day.

    You all should be more grateful.

    I am a public servant and work from home at least once a week.


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    #136
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    And you believed varadkar when you said he’d reward the early risers? lol! It’s probably just kite flying. Absolute joke if true, but better than increasing child benefit. Only workers should be seeing improvement from here on!


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    #137
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Or even lost their job or valuable gold plated pension?

    People have been fired, a guard in sligo recently was sent to prison but she was helping criminal gangs, that's hardly mere " screwing up"


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    #138
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,515 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    What's " thick" about the question, il ask again.

    When has anyone in the public sector gone to prison for " screwing up"?
    When has anyone - public or private - gone to prison for 'screwing up' ? Screwing up is not a criminal offence. You go to prison for fairly serious breaches of criminal law, which generally doesn't happen in most work places, public or private.

    Why don't you tell us who specifically do you reckon should have gone to prison and for what offence?
    janfebmar wrote: »
    Or even lost their job or valuable gold plated pension?
    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    When has anyone in the public sector ever been stripped of their pension, never mind sent to prison for " screwing up"?
    Public sector staff are fired all the time, in low numbers;
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/hse-sacks-eight-for-discipline-breaches-124775.html
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/four-hse-staff-sacked-for-abuse-of-sick-leave-226647.html
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/hse-sacks-eight-for-discipline-breaches-124775.html

    But what is this thirst for firing all about? A firing generally means that others screwed up - either those who recruited the person or managed the person. A high level of firings points to a dysfunctional organisation - a badge of shame not a badge of honour.

    And pensions are private property - you can't take pensions off people, any more than you can take their car or their house. If you want to take a court case against them, maybe you could, but that doesn't tend to happen in public or private sector.
    Charles Babbage wrote: »
    People are conflating two issues. The only way to run the public service is to pay a proper rate and expect proper work for it. Instead we get politically determined pay and no real interest in running things properly, politicians preferring be able to "intervene" rather than have a service where that intervention is not necessary.

    There is a some truth in this, though it's not fair to see there is no real interest in running things properly. Most public sector managers at all levels have very real interest in running things properly, and have pride in the public services they provide.
    Idbatterim wrote: »
    And you believed varadkar when you said he’d reward the early risers? lol! It’s probably just kite flying. Absolute joke if true, but better than increasing child benefit. Only workers should be seeing improvement from here on!
    Eh, perhaps you missed the OP explaining that this is a benefit for workers?
    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Yes indeed, rte portray public sector strife as a far greater national crisis than if any number of small businesses close, in the mind of RTE, working for the state is inherently more honourable, the market is inherently machivelian
    Perhaps that's because a closed hospital or school generally has a bigger impact on people's lives than a closed coffee shop or closed electrician?
    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    The Government should do it though, it's a win win situation because people from India and The Phillipines would be coming to work in well paid jobs compared to their own countries and there would be no more whinging from the unions about staff shortages.
    The HSE HAVE done this, but it is far from a win-win for the targeted countries, who have invested in training their specialist staff to find them whipped away. There is an international ethical issue here, akin to the stripping of minerals and natural resources that was done in earlier times.
    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Basic pay when it comes to guards is meaningless to a unique degree, even guards who own a house get an accommodation allowance, they even get boot polish allowance
    Having a house in Carrickmacross isn't much use to you when you've been stationed in Dun Laoghaire or Bray. That's why Gardai get an accommodation allowance, to recognise the costs that result from being moved around the country.

    There is no 'boot polish' allowance. There is a boot allowance, because they provide their own boots. No conspiracy, not gold plating - just a standard approach of an employer paying for essential equipment.
    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Well console yourself in the fact that you have RTE to defend public sector honour every day of the week.
    Do you listen to RTE much? Did you hear Joe Duffy spend two or three weeks detailed the desperate experiences of mothers in childbirth recently? Do you hear SOR or Tubridy or Darcy sneering about public services at every opportunity?


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    #139
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    backspin. wrote: »
    Public servants are just better people all round. Harder workers, more contentious, better behaved, more educated, more helpful, the list goes on.

    None of this private sector nonsense of 'working' from home then dossing about for the day.

    You all should be more grateful.


    They operate from a higher moral plain, I know this because RTE keep reminding me when they report on public sector industrial action in solemn tones


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    #140
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    When has anyone - public or private - gone to prison for 'screwing up' ? Screwing up is not a criminal offence. You go to prison for fairly serious breaches of criminal law, which generally doesn't happen in most work places, public or private.

    Why don't you tell us who specifically do you reckon should have gone to prison and for what offence?



    Public sector staff are fired all the time, in low numbers;
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/hse-sacks-eight-for-discipline-breaches-124775.html
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/four-hse-staff-sacked-for-abuse-of-sick-leave-226647.html
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/hse-sacks-eight-for-discipline-breaches-124775.html

    But what is this thirst for firing all about? A firing generally means that others screwed up - either those who recruited the person or managed the person. A high level of firings points to a dysfunctional organisation - a badge of shame not a badge of honour.

    And pensions are private property - you can't take pensions off people, any more than you can take their car or their house. If you want to take a court case against them, maybe you could, but that doesn't tend to happen in public or private sector.



    There is a some truth in this, though it's not fair to see there is no real interest in running things properly. Most public sector managers at all levels have very real interest in running things properly, and have pride in the public services they provide.


    Eh, perhaps you missed the OP explaining that this is a benefit for workers?


    Perhaps that's because a closed hospital or school generally has a bigger impact on people's lives than a closed coffee shop or closed electrician?

    The HSE HAVE done this, but it is far from a win-win for the targeted countries, who have invested in training their specialist staff to find them whipped away. There is an international ethical issue here, akin to the stripping of minerals and natural resources that was done in earlier times.

    Having a house in Carrickmacross isn't much use to you when you've been stationed in Dun Laoghaire or Bray. That's why Gardai get an accommodation allowance, to recognise the costs that result from being moved around the country.

    There is no 'boot polish' allowance. There is a boot allowance, because they provide their own boots. No conspiracy, not gold plating - just a standard approach of an employer paying for essential equipment.


    Do you listen to RTE much? Did you hear Joe Duffy spend two or three weeks detailed the desperate experiences of mothers in childbirth recently? Do you hear SOR or Tubridy or Darcy sneering about public services at every opportunity?

    All RTE broadcasters are resolutely pro public sector

    As for the " going to prison for screwing up" comment

    I didn't make it, I responded to it a few times but instead of producing some evidence, the poster preferred to label me " thick"


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    #141
    Brain Whinge
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 ✭Brain Whinge


    Why not just join the civil service if it's so great in the public sector?


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    #142
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,515 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    They operate from a higher moral plain, I know this because RTE keep reminding me when they report on public sector industrial action in solemn tones

    They tend to report on most things in solemn tones, that's how news programmes generally work. The chip seems to be more on your shoulder than theirs.
    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    All RTE broadcasters are resolutely pro public sector
    So spending three weeks covering great detail of poor experiences of mothers in childbirth on Joe Duffy is part of this 'resolutely pro public sector' attitude?


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    #143
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    They tend to report on most things in solemn tones, that's how news programmes generally work. The chip seems to be more on your shoulder than theirs.


    So spending three weeks covering great detail of poor experiences of mothers in childbirth on Joe Duffy is part of this 'resolutely pro public sector' attitude?

    Within the context of demands for more pay, they are

    No one is going to defend sub standard maternity care, not even Liam doran

    Not going to respond to the " chip on shoulder" jibe, it's a banal line beloved of the gormless.


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    #144
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    I'm very well paid and not in need of this additional free money for civil servants.

    It is nonetheless disgraceful that a sector of our workforce gets every gold plated benefit going, while the hard working private sector tax payer foot their bills.

    But hey, dont worry, the ultra hard left never let the facts get in the way of their opinion.
    What a load of gobshytery. Obviously critical thinking isn't a requirement of your well paid job.

    I work in the private sector and I'm in the centre politically (leaning slightly right economically) and find your whining asinine.


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    #145
    hurling_lad
    Registered Users Posts: 346 ✭✭hurling_lad


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    The problem with Dan O'Brien articles in the Indo (and most articles that mention 'public sector' in the Indo) is that you need to dig behind the details.

    Bland comparisons between UK and Irish public sector staff is comparing apples and oranges. The UK have outsourced many traditional public sector jobs, so prison officers, healthcare staff, school support staff in the UK will often be private sector. So the comparisons don't really hold.

    But Dan is quite happy to gloss over this.

    This proposal is exactly the same as maternity leave. The state provides a basic level of service, and decent employers (public or private) top this up.

    Sorry if the facts don't suit those who want to fuel false division.

    It's not clear how outsourcing in the UK skews the public sector pay premium figures. If anything, it might boost the UK pay premium figure, as many of the outsourced jobs would be at lower end of the pay scale.

    Don't forget also that the NHS directly employs tens of thousands of GPs, so that would inflate the UK pay premium stats.


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    #146
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    They operate from a higher moral plain, I know this because RTE keep reminding me when they report on public sector industrial action in solemn tones

    I know you are joking but one thing I did notice immediately when I joined the public sector was that people are much more likely to be (a) religious and (b) big supporters of the Irish language. It might have been the demographic in that the long termers tended to be set in their ways and very vocal about both subjects in the work environment. I am neither but I do love the GAA so that got me by! :)
    .


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    #147
    Doc07
    Registered Users Posts: 983 ✭✭✭Doc07


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Within the context of demands for more pay, they are

    No one is going to defend sub standard maternity care, not even Liam doran

    Not going to respond to the " chip on shoulder" jibe, it's a banal line beloved of the gormless.

    Painful anecdotes without any moderation on disengenous populist radio show aside, Maternity care in Ireland is not substandard, far from it.


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    #148
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    Snow Garden wrote: »
    I am a public servant and work from home at least once a week.

    You mean you watch Dr. Phil and Tipping Point and pretend to be busy.


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    #149
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    backspin. wrote: »
    You mean you watch Dr. Phil and Tipping Point and pretend to be busy.

    Nonsense!

    Judge Judy, The Chase, Maura and Daithi and for a treat, Jeremy Kyle (USA).


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    #150
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,701 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Snow Garden wrote: »
    Nonsense!

    Judge Judy, The Chase, Maura and Daithi and for a treat, Jeremy Kyle (USA).

    And when they want some solemn tones, the RTE News.


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    #151
    RWCNT
    Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    Where does this idea about people working from home dossing come from?

    When I'm working from home I'm doing the same as I would in the office, except in my dining room instead of the office. I'm busy and have **** to do.


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