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  • 18-11-2015 1:33pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭


    After the Paris massacres this is our EU leaders solution to make us all safer from crazy religious head hackers armed with sucidie vests and full auto AKs.
    BAN more civillian owned guns.!!:mad::mad:
    http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-6110_en.htm



    European Commission - Press release
    European Commission strengthens control of firearms across the EU

    Brussels, 18 November 2015

    The European Commission today adopted a package of measures to make it more difficult to acquire firearms in the European Union,

    better track legally held firearms, strengthen cooperation between Member States, and ensure that deactivated firearms are rendered inoperable.
    The proposals presented today were foreseen in the European Security Agenda adopted in April 2015, but have been significantly accelerated in light of recent events. The Commission is hereby supporting Member States in their efforts to protect Europe's citizens and prevent criminals and terrorists from accessing weapons.
    President Juncker said: "The recent terrorist attacks on Europe's people and values were coordinated across borders, showing that we must work together to resist these threats. Today's proposal, prepared jointly by Commissioners Elżbieta Bieńkowska and Dimitris Avramopoulos, will help us tackle the threat of weapons falling into the hands of terrorists. We are proposing stricter controls on sale and registration of firearms, and stronger rules to irrevocably deactivate weapons. We will also come forward with an Action Plan in the near future to tackle illicit arms trafficking. Organised criminals accessing and trading military grade firearms in Europe cannot and will not be tolerated."
    Internal Market and Industry Commissioner Elżbieta Bieńkowska and Migration, Home Affairs and Citizenship Commissioner Dimitris Avramopoulos added: "The adoption of the firearms package today is proof of the Commission's determination to address the new reality we are confronted with. We need to remove regulatory divergences across the EU by imposing stricter, harmonised EU standards for firearms and ensuring efficient exchange of information between Member States."
    The package of measures on firearms adopted by the College of Commissioners today includes the following elements:
    A revision of the Firearms Directive, to tighten controls on the acquisition and possession of firearms
    The Commission has today tabled proposals to amend the EU Firearms Directive, which defines the rules under which private persons can acquire and possess weapons, as well as the transfer of firearms to another EU country. The main elements of the proposed revision are:
    Stricter rules to ban certain semi-automatic firearms, which will not, under any circumstance, be allowed to be held by private persons, even if they have been permanently deactivated;
    Tighter rules on the online acquisition of firearms, to avoid the acquisition of firearms, key parts or ammunition through the Internet;
    EU common rules on marking of firearms to improve the traceability of weapons;
    Better exchange of information between Member States, for example on any refusal of authorisation to own a firearm decided by another national authority, and obligation to interconnect national registers of weapons;
    Common criteria concerning alarm weapons (e.g. distress flares and starter pistols)in order to prevent their transformation into fully functioning firearms;
    Stricter conditions for the circulation of deactivated firearms;
    Stricter conditions for collectors to limit the risk of sale to criminals.
    The proposed amendments which the Commission has tabled today now need to be approved by the European Parliament and Council.
    An Implementing Regulation on common minimum standards for deactivation of firearms
    The Implementing Regulation sets out common and strict criteria on the way Member States must deactivate weapons so that they are rendered inoperable. The possession of the most dangerous firearms – even if they are deactivated – will no longer be allowed.
    The Implementing Regulation is based on the criteria for deactivation developed by the Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms (the CIP). Following a positive vote on the draft Regulation by Member States in a comitology committee earlier this morning, the College of Commissioners formally adopted the text. The Regulation will be published immediately in the Official Journal and will enter into force after 3 months.
    Today's package of measures to strengthen the control of firearms within the EU is based on a detailed evaluation of the implementation of the Firearms Directive carried out by the Commission last year in the context of its Regulatory Fitness programme (REFIT), which aims to ensure that existing EU regulation is fit for purpose. To ensure the best practical results on the deactivation of firearms, the Commission will regularly review and update the technical specifications laid down in this Regulation.
    An action plan against the illegal trafficking of weapons and explosives
    In addition to the adoption of these stricter rules and standards, the Commission also announced today that it is developing an action plan against the illegal trafficking of weapons and explosives. Issues to be tackled in this future action plan will include:
    The illegal purchase of weapons on the black market;
    The control of illegal weapons and explosives in the internal market (especially from the Balkan countries or ex-war zones);
    The fight against organised crime.

    While arms trafficking is mainly a national competence, given the clear cross-border dimension there is a need for stronger police and intelligence service coordination and stronger import checks. The Commission will propose actions to support Member States' activities, building on the Action Plan on illicit trafficking in firearms between the EU and the Western Balkans. The EU-Western Balkans summit of Ministers of Justice and Home Affairs on 7 December will be a further opportunity to take stock of progress on the Action Plan.
    Background
    The responsibility for ensuring internal security is first and foremost with the Member States, but cross-border challenges defy the capacity of individual countries to act alone and require EU support to build trust and facilitate cooperation, exchange of information and joint action.
    President Juncker's Political Guidelines identified the security agenda as a priority for this Commission, and the 2015 Commission Work Programme committed to the delivery of the European Agenda on Security.
    On 28 April 2015, the European Commission set out a European Agenda on Security for the period 2015-2020 to support Member States' cooperation in tackling security threats and step up our common efforts in the fight against terrorism, organised crime and cybercrime. The Agenda sets out the concrete tools and measures which will be used in this joint work to ensure security and tackle these three most pressing threats more effectively.
    In the Agenda and in the Work Programme for 2016, the Commission promised to review the existing legislation on firearms in 2016 to improve the sharing of information, to reinforce traceability, to standardise marking, and to establish common standards for neutralising firearms. In light of recent events we have decided to significantly accelerate this work. Since then, significant progress has been made in implementing the elements of the agenda.
    Today's initiatives complement ongoing work to tackle the illegal trafficking of firearms, including notably the operational action plan between the EU and the Western Balkans and joint investigations and police cooperation which have been in place since 2013.

    For more information
    Directive: http://ec.europa.eu/DocsRoom/documents/13965/attachments/1/translations/en/renditions/native
    Report: http://ec.europa.eu/DocsRoom/documents/13965/attachments/2/translations/en/renditions/native
    Implementing Regulation (deactivation): http://ec.europa.eu/DocsRoom/documents/13965/attachments/3/translations/en/renditions/native
    Annexes to Implementing Regulation: http://ec.europa.eu/DocsRoom/documents/13965/attachments/4/translations/en/renditions/native
    Memo/15/6111
    European Agenda on Security – Press release
    The European Agenda on Security: State of Play
    Firearms Directive

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



«13456727

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    Ban legally owned firearms? So does that mean that the guns that were used by these terrorists were legally owned?
    So the solution is to ban legally owned guns?
    How bout crack down on illegally held firearms and find who is selling them or find the gangs that are dealing them out or groups.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Hope the EU is going to be ready to pay out to the gunowners of Europe big time on compo for those banned semi autos under their own laws.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Hope the EU is going to be ready to pay out to the gunowners of Europe big time on compo for those banned semi autos under their own laws.

    It won't make a lick of difference. People will still be killed by illegally held firearms. There's gangs out there that are basically a small army that have piles of guns but no let's ban legal guns instead. We'll worry about the illegal ones when some more people are killed. That'll sort the problem out


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Allah be praised!!!...The bomb vest will not require a permit or liscense from the infidels police or liscenseing forces.We would have been truely at a disadvantage then!
    H.Eadhacker:rolleyes:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Well, they're still proposals rather than law, so that's a small blessing. But a major headdesk moment. You'd think the EU didn't learn anything from 1972 here or something.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    In what country in Europe can you legally obtain a kalashnikov AK47 anyway?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    The netherlands under a collector's licence (but you can't ever fire it legally). I think there are some grandfathered in in the eastern european member states, but I could be completely wrong. 91/ECC/477 didn't ban them utterly, but it was worded as strongly as they could at the time to make them effectively illegal to have in as much of the EU as was possible.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    I think they should focus on stricter border controls instead of firearmslaws.

    http://nypost.com/2015/11/15/man-stopped-in-germany-may-be-linked-to-paris-attacks-police/


    It seems quite obvious that terrorist wont be going for a single shot/semi auto target rifle,they will choose assualt rifles with high capasity magazines.
    And you wont find many memberstates in the EU that allows for that anymore.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I only said to the Father the other day after watching Terresa May give a speech in the house of Parliament about tightening gun control that something stupid would come out of this.

    She [May] said that they need to tighten the movement of guns, limit the availability of assault weapons, etc, etc. Seeing as how there are laws governing this already i thought it was a silly comment. What is needed is more money to enforce the existing laws.

    As for "assault weapons". Well they're illegal anyway. In Ireland they are Category A, prohibited firearms. So cannot be gotten, licensed, etc. The same holds true for most if not all EU countries. So how do you ban them further.

    How about you just tackle the illegal guns that are out there?


    Really is a head-desk issue as said above.
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    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Just shows how divorced from reality people become when they become politicans at that level.Either that or thefe are some really nasty grey people with agendas surrounding them.
    Was talking to one politican on this point in Germany.He said some of these proposals they get handed are the size of a phone book and maybe a half dozen a day in some cases.No one can read and comprehend that much per day let alone find fault.So they get it condensed in bullet points trysting someone else has read it and given you the right info.......How easy is it then to slip in an agenda as a policy then?

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Cass wrote: »
    I only said to the Father the other day after watching Terresa May give a speech in the house of Parliament about tightening gun control that something stupid would come out of this.

    She [May] said that they need to tighten the movement of guns, limit the availability of assault weapons, etc, etc. Seeing as how there are laws governing this already i thought it was a silly comment. What is needed is more money to enforce the existing laws.

    As for "assault weapons". Well they're illegal anyway. In Ireland they are Category A, prohibited firearms. So cannot be gotten, licensed, etc. The same holds true for most if not all EU countries. So how do you ban them further.

    How about you just tackle the illegal guns that are out there?


    Really is a head-desk issue as said above.

    The woman is a total spoonheaded mong. As if any criminal intent on wholesale slaughter is going to take any notice of ANY law. That is why they are called criminals.

    tac


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Just after watching an interesting interview between a SKY news correspondent and Dr Julian Richards. Now i don't Dr. Richards, have never heard of him before and don't know his background but he made some very salient points.

    His remarks about the tightening of gun laws were very important. He said, and i'm paraphrasing here, that the problem is not so much the movement of arms around the EU (although he did say that some member states could do with examining the processes they use to allow this), but moreso a case of the outlying countries within the Schengen area tightening their borders and stopping the influx of FULLY AUTOMATIC arms which once in can move more freely.

    He went on to say that England, due it's geographical location, does not suffer with this nearly as much as the other countries within the EU. By default Ireland would be less so or at the very least the same. He finished by saying that there should NOT be a kneejerk reaction to the events of Paris in relation to arms.

    I must stress the interview was not solely about firearms. It touched on multiple topics, and i'm by no means seeking to diminish the tragedies that have occurred, but just relaying the points he made on firearms because of the topic of the thread and nature of the forum.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 213 ✭✭Snakezilla


    Personally I don't think its anything to do with the terrorists arsenal of weapons.. Lets face it , if they want guns - they'll do ANYTHING to get them. I think the idea of banning of legally owned firearms is due to the fear of vigilante groups and civilians taking matters into their own hands etc. It's the only reason it would make sense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    e
    netherlands under a collector's licence (but you can't ever fire it legally). I think there are some grandfathered in in the eastern european member states, but I could be completely wrong. 91/ECC/477 didn't ban them utterly, but it was worded as strongly as they could at the time to make them effectively illegal to have in as much of the EU as was possible.

    Think the Czech republic more like?You can get[from Wikipedia]
    Restricted firearms and accessories
    Includes full automatic firearms, military firearms and ammunition not inspected and marked for civilian use, some types of ammunition such as armor piercing and incendiary ammunition, night vision scopes, suppressors and gun mounted laser pointers. The use of hollow point ammunition in pistols is also restricted, however, hollow points are legal to purchase for rifles and pistol carbines.

    To obtain a gun from the A category (typically a full-automatic or select-fire firearm), the person must ask for a may-issue "exemption" from the police and demonstrate a specific reason why they want such a weapon.
    For private physical persons, the only acceptable reason is collecting;[66]
    for physical or legal persons having an armament license (this is a completely different certificate than the gun license) for professional purposes the acceptable reasons include providing security for dangerous or valuable shipments or VIP objects, manufacturing or testing of firearms, providing training in use of A category firearms, or filming in case that the firearm is adjusted for use of dummy rounds.[66]

    [Sounds like their version of fights with our Cheif Super:pBut at least their law is much easier to read and understand.]

    Holland.[They read as pukey as ours,almost]
    From Vegan Peace website]

    The Netherlands' gun laws are based on the following acts:

    Wet wapens en munitie (Arms and Ammunition Act) (22)
    Council Directive of 18 June 1991 (9) (see European Union)
    The Netherlands has strict gun laws. Citizens can only obtain a firearm for hunting or sport shooting or when they are able to provide a special reason for needing one. Self-defense is not considered a valid reason.

    To obtain a sport shooting license, applicants have to join a shooting club. They will be able to use pistols that are property of the club, but will never be allowed to own them outside of the club.

    It is allowed to hunt in the Netherlands with semi-automatic and pump action shotguns and hunting rifles with a two round limit. Hunting with pistols is also allowed. All privately owned firearms must be locked in a gun safe, when not in use. (22),(38)

    What they dont say is being a hunter over there is about the social equivilent of being a Muslim having a bacon sanger at Friday prayers.:eek:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    No grizz, definitely netherlands. It's not a normal firearms permit, it'd be illegal to fire a firearm you had on a collectors permit even if you had normal permits for other firearms. It's a weird edge case, I'd not even heard of it until a few months back. Haven't been able to find the reference though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Folks, this is not just about semi auto rifles, if you read this proposal in detail it will also affect EVERYONE who owns a gun.You think it is difficult to get something from the USA now?If this kicks in you proably wont get a freakin WOODSCREW for the buttplate on your gun from the US and it will require a ton of paperwork to get somthing within the EU as well.If you have a deactivated firearm that can have the mag removed or the cylinder swung out cocked and "fired" ,it will have to be re deactivated to the UK/EU style deact of being a welded up lump of metal suitable only as a high tech [ and awkward] club.
    Please sign ,circulate to your friends and clubs and shooting organisations.Also it wouldnt hurt to give your TDs/MEP a call on this either.
    We fought long and hard last year to stop our sport from being wrecked by our local powers that be..Why now should a bunch of Eurocrats and politicans over there in literally "fortress Brussells" say what they think we should be shooting in a ligit sport,when fundamentalist terrorists are running amuck on the streets of Europe?



    https://www.change.org/p/council-of-the-european-union-eu-you-cannot-stop-terrorism-by-restricting-legal-gun-ownership

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭Zxthinger


    Do they really think that the people will see this as action to stop terrorists.
    FFS. ��I knew some bullshi7 would be flowing downhill as soon as the saga unfolded.
    Maybe they should ban passports and hotel rooms too or just outlaw public gatherings.

    Knee jerk reactions formed on energetic emotional highs and deep anger..
    Punitive measures like these would be the first step in IS winning ground by destroying our society.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43 Big Bangstick


    People thought the Ministers latest announcement was good news. What's the betting she knew this document * was coming and the new authority will be implementing all this eu claptrap. Once again looks like some were sold a pup.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    So... you're saying the Minister for Justice knew ISIS were going to murder over a hundred people in Paris and stayed quiet so she could bring in more restrictive firearms legislation using the EU as a tool to do so.

    Honestly, don't know what to say to that one...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Well if you belive in conspircy theories and that the Paris attacks were some sort of NWO "false flags" fantasy...How would they have known this would happen.Go and read up exactly what the emergency meeting was said and by whom.You had that daft cow Thresa May advocating a UK style system all over Europe,and that Swedish red Malstrom getting her panties in a twist that all her rubbish socialist gun banning ideas could be implimented almost at once due to this tragedy...
    What is more important now for us here,is simply to quit with this inter bitching and parish pump politics and see where the real threat is coming from,its not Dublin its Brussells!!And I would be intrested to see if our repersentation here in the form of NASRPC,Sports Colation,NARGC,WADI,etc etc.Will go away and get in contact with their respective bodies and allies on the continent and issue some statements to Europe on this?
    OH and BTW Hello AIrsofters...You are included in this one.They want to ban airsoft in the EU too.But dont expect any sympathy from the shooting community.Your silence and indifference to any petition signing last year has been well noted by us.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43 Big Bangstick


    Sparks wrote: »
    So... you're saying the Minister for Justice knew ISIS were going to murder over a hundred people in Paris and stayed quiet so she could bring in more restrictive firearms legislation using the EU as a tool to do so.

    Honestly, don't know what to say to that one...

    I don't know sometimes how ye see what ye see in posts. Vivid imaginations to say the least.

    So this document was prepared since Friday last week? Ya right !

    It's been flagged for a long time that elements in EU want to clamp down on legal firearms ownership. A politician with an agenda will use anything to get what they want


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    I don't know sometimes how ye see what ye see in posts. Vivid imaginations to say the least.
    I don't know sometimes how ye don't know when we're being sarcastic because what you say isn't worth much more of an answer.
    So this document was prepared since Friday last week? Ya right !
    No, it was prepared after Charlie Hebdo was attacked and was rushed since the attacks this weekend. That's been stated openly. Were you maybe not listening?
    It's been flagged for a long time that elements in EU want to clamp down on legal firearms ownership. A politician with an agenda will use anything to get what they want
    And the sky's blue and water's wet. If you're done trying to look insightful, could you maybe actually think of something more original?

    'Cos otherwise, you're just adding to noise while some stuff you should be paying attention to is going on. And we've got this long, long, long history of doing that in shooting in Ireland and then spending the next decade bitching and moaning about how things aren't right instead of actually paying attention and saying something when there was a chance to change things.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43 Big Bangstick


    You're right. There's way too much noise here. Sorry for posting at all. In future I'll simply await your insightful posts and be grateful that we as a community have people like you making sure we know what to think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    You're right. There's way too much noise here. Sorry for posting at all. In future I'll simply await your insightful posts and be grateful that we as a community have people like you making sure we know what to think.
    That's what I love about you BB - someone tells you to think at all and you hear them telling you what to think instead.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43 Big Bangstick


    Could be worse I could be trying to convince everyone I'm right and they're wrong.

    I'll give you the last word now as we both know you'll have it one way or another ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    This is a German /European website and it explains the proposals alot better than some FB sites. Read this and then start asking your organisations have they read it and what is their response to this ulterior threat,when they can manage to do so between the parish pump politics and infighting.:rolleyes:



    https://www.all4shooters.com/en/Shooting/law/2015-articles/EU-new-proposal-restrictions-firearms/

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Folks, this is not just about semi auto rifles, if you read this proposal in detail it will also affect EVERYONE who owns a gun.You think it is difficult to get something from the USA now?If this kicks in you proably wont get a freakin WOODSCREW for the buttplate on your gun from the US and it will require a ton of paperwork to get somthing within the EU as well.If you have a deactivated firearm that can have the mag removed or the cylinder swung out cocked and "fired" ,it will have to be re deactivated to the UK/EU style deact of being a welded up lump of metal suitable only as a high tech [ and awkward] club.
    Please sign ,circulate to your friends and clubs and shooting organisations.Also it wouldnt hurt to give your TDs/MEP a call on this either.
    We fought long and hard last year to stop our sport from being wrecked by our local powers that be..Why now should a bunch of Eurocrats and politicans over there in literally "fortress Brussells" say what they think we should be shooting in a ligit sport,when fundamentalist terrorists are running amuck on the streets of Europe?



    https://www.change.org/p/council-of-the-european-union-eu-you-cannot-stop-terrorism-by-restricting-legal-gun-ownership

    21000 - odd signatures now.

    These proposals are not new, as we all know - we even commented on the EU report they're based on when talking to the Justice Committee a few months ago. They've simply been frontloaded so politicians can be seen to be doing something, no matter how damaging to a minority.

    Ultimately, this is all coming from the UN small arms policy: Like as if paramilitaries in Somalia, Nigeria, Afghanistan or any other bullet-ridden country where a policy is desperately needed are going to take heed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Steve012


    Zxthinger wrote: »
    Do they really think that the people will see this as action to stop terrorists.
    FFS. ��I knew some bullshi7 would be flowing downhill as soon as the saga unfolded.
    Maybe they should ban passports and hotel rooms too or just outlaw public gatherings.

    Knee jerk reactions formed on energetic emotional highs and deep anger..
    Punitive measures like these would be the first step in IS winning ground by destroying our society.

    Same here, It was one of the first things that came to mind!

    "We must take all firearms off the street including law abiding citizens who legally own firearms for sporting and pleasure use"....

    A blind flying horse can see this might cause some stir down the road!
    "Oh We must do it if our larger European neighbors are, "mentality"

    Just more **** to expect down the line IMO..

    Ban knifes, ban pastry rollers, ban cars! they could all fall under a dangerous weapon category..:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    The NRA in the US have the right approach, dig in heels and dont give an inch, surely a pan european lobbying group could be set up, the likes of Steyr, H&K etc funding it?


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Thats great when you're in a country where you have a constitutional right to guns. That is not the case in Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and i'm sure the majority of other European countries.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭TeaBagMania


    Here’s an idea for the legislators, maybe if a couple of those 120+ victims had a cancelled carry permit and were holding they could have saved a few lives and sent a few terrorists to allah

    I have a cancelled weapon permit and don’t carry my .45 on a daily basis, but im getting damn close


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Cass wrote: »
    Thats great when you're in a country where you have a constitutional right to guns. That is not the case in Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and i'm sure the majority of other European countries.

    But even to fight for the "rights" we already have, there is a huge push from the hippie brigade to make the West a gun free zone, we have loads of arms manufacturers in europe, its in their interest to have a healthy population of people interested in shooting and armaments


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Here’s an idea for the legislators, maybe if a couple of those 120+ victims had a cancelled carry permit and were holding they could have saved a few lives and sent a few terrorists to allah
    And have a bunch of untrained, have-a-go "heroes". Eh, no thanks. They are most likely to shoot someone by accident, mistaken identity or out of stupidity.
    I have a cancelled weapon permit and don’t carry my .45 on a daily basis, but im getting damn close
    Not available here, UK (IIRC), and again not sure about the rest of Europe, but i doubt it or at least to no where near the same extent as it is int he States.
    But even to fight for the "rights" we already have,
    There is your first istake. You, me and the general we have NO RIGHTS. At least not when it comes to firearms. There is no right to have one. I thought i said that above when i mentioned how the states are different to us in that they have a constitutional right to guns and we don't.
    there is a huge push from the hippie brigade to make the West a gun free zone,
    Possibly.
    we have loads of arms manufacturers in europe, its in their interest to have a healthy population of people interested in shooting and armaments
    For sporting purposes, yes. For law enforcement/military well thats beyond any of our interests. As for defending ourselves. Well in Ireland it's illegal to have a gun for self defense. Like above it's the same in the UK, but i don't know about the rest of Europe.

    Secondly the gun manufacturers are not interested in arming the populace for some sort of assault against IS or any other group. They interest is business. They'll sell more guns in times of panic than peace, but as i said it has little to do with most of Europe as ITS NOT THE STATES.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭TeaBagMania


    Cass wrote: »
    And have a bunch of untrained, have-a-go "heroes". Eh, no thanks. They are most likely to shoot someone by accident, mistaken identity or out of stupidity.
    Fine, make extensive training part of the requirements.

    Taking the Paris situation into consideration, personally I’d rather have and untrained pistol packing have-a-go hero by my side than nothing at all


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Fine, make extensive training part of the requirements.
    So a militia?
    Taking the Paris situation into consideration, personally I’d rather have and untrained pistol packing have-a-go hero by my side than nothing at all
    As said it's not on the cards as the law stands now, with the EU looking to reduce firearm ownership i doubt it'll ever be a consideration and frankly the majority of people shouldn't have a catapult let alone a real gun so i'll stick with my previous opinion of "eh, no thanks".
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭TeaBagMania


    I don’t really consider all the cancelled weapon permit holders in the US a militia, but hey if it dentures suicidal terrorists great.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭TeaBagMania


    I don’t know why my font flakes out like that sometimes but thanks for the fix


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    .............. weapon ................
    See, there is your mistake. Weapons. We don't have them here. We only have firearms. I'm not being pedantic either, but we get enough of that "weapon" talk from our own police force and i wouldn't let it slide with them either.

    As for your post. I don't want to sound like a dick but perhaps you might explain it a bit for me as i'm loosing something in translation.

    You say:
    I don’t really consider all the cancelled weapon permit holders in the US a militia,
    Cancelled firearm permits are moot as they no longer exist. So what exactly do you mean.
    ........ but hey if it dentures suicidal terrorists great.
    Again i'm loosing you here. What have false teeth got to do with the topic? Not being a dick, but does dentures have a different meaning?
    I don’t know why my font flakes out like that sometimes but thanks for the fix
    No hassle.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭TeaBagMania


    A firearm, knife or bow and arrow are considered weapons, or at least to anyone with a military background. We don’t consider guns, rifles or pistols firearms, they are all weapons, sure if you want to get into semantics you can classify them as anything you want.

    When we obtain cancelled weapons permits in the states, training is part of the requirements and I don’t consider myself as part of a militia just because I have one.

    Cancelled firearms permits are moot? In Ireland, yes, but maybe that should change

    Dentures? lol you got my typo, meant to be “deter”


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    A firearm, knife or bow and arrow are considered weapons, or at least to anyone with a military background. We don’t consider guns, rifles or pistols firearms, they are all weapons, sure if you want to get into semantics you can classify them as anything you want.
    I'm not sure how familiar you are with Ireland, but let me explain a few things so you get an understanding of the way things work here. I'll try to be as succinct ass possible:
    1. We have three classifications of firearms
      • Unrestricted - Unrestricted refers to bolt action rifles, shotguns with 3 shots or fewer and 5 shot, .22lr pistols ONLY.
      • Restricted - Semi auto rimfires that have mag of more than 10 rounds. Semi auto centrefire rifles (all calibers). Centrefire handguns (and there are only 200 or so left as new licenses were banned in 2008). Shotguns that hold more than 3 shots. Bolt action rifle over .30cal. Crossbows.
      • Prohibited - Anything other than what i've mentioned above.
    2. We cannot have a gun for self defense and to apply for one as such is illegal and will be refused.
    3. We don't have concealed carry permits for anything.
    4. We must be members of a range to have a pistol and only in .22 lr (not just any rimfire) caliber.
    5. We cannot have Bow & arrows for hunting. It's illegal. As are spears, etc.
    6. Crossbows are classed as restricted firearms. Yes exactly like a semi auto Ar15.
    7. As there is no legal draw strength in the law about crossbows then technically even a child's toy that fires sucker darts is, in law, a restricted firearm.
    8. Paint ball guns are technically restricted short firearms, the exact same as my Sig 9 mm. However due to some unknown force they have not been pulled up on it.
    9. We need licenses for any "gun" that can fire a projectile with a muzzle energy of 1 joule or greater. This means BB guns, airsoft toys, and air rifles can be classed as firearms and in the cases where they exceed 1 joule MUST be licensed.
    10. Brass is classed the same as live ammo. So empty brass goes towards the total amount i can have, which is limited by the number the Superintendent gives me.
    11. Reloading is essentially illegal.
    12. A trigger, barrel, rifle stock, bolt, action, etc. are all classed as firearms in their own right. IOW they don't have to be on a firearm to be classed as one and so if you were caught with a rifle trigger and no license you face up to 7 years in prison and/or €25,000 fine.
    13. A suppressor is also a firearm in law. IOW you must a gun license for a suppressor even if you don't own a gun.
    14. Same applies, technically to NV scopes.

    These are just some, and i'm only scratching the surface, of the laws we have here. That does not include the 9 page application for a gun, the 3 months waiting time, the "voluntary" surrender of medical privacy, allowing unwarranted searching of homes, interview with police, having to provide a good reason as "i want it" does not count, and all this to be done for every gun we want. IOW one gun, one license.
    When we obtain cancelled weapons permits in the states, training is part of the requirements and I don’t consider myself as part of a militia just because I have one.
    I think we're getting our wires crossed. I still don't fully understand what a cancelled "weapon" permit is. It seems cancelled and permit are confusing me. Not hard to do, i'm blonde.

    However the arming of non military, untrained people to me is a militia.
    Cancelled firearms permits are moot? In Ireland, yes, but maybe that should change
    If you read the above and keeping in mind that only 1 in 40 people in Ireland own a gun then you'll understand the prevailing attitude is "Everyone hold hands, put French flags on your Facebook page, and think good thoughts" and that'll be enough.
    Dentures? lol you got my typo, meant to be “deter”
    Ye, i got a picture of some gummy old Veterans trying to fight IS
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Think the word is spelt C-o-n-c-e-a-l-e-d?
    Not being a spell check Nazi here ,but cancelled means somthing different.

    Technically said ,Yes you can get concealed carry permits in Europe in certain countries,[Germany,Czech republic,Austria,Italy]and a little known fact that also includes here in the ROI.It is actually a perogorative of a cheif Super and upwards to grant such if they belive there is an imminent"clear and present" danger and "good reason"[,and we know CS and good reason here:p] to a persons life.However ,for that to become reality ,you would need to convince a CS that you know the exact day date time and that abolutely there is no other way you could get AGS asistance to prevent a threat to your life.As well as being some sort of VIP,IE somone who worked in the Criminal Assest Bureau or a political figure who has been threatned by our own home grown terrorists.

    Now the next problem is those that have had sidearms delt out to them havent ever recived another vital prerequsite ,apart from been shown how to use the gun safely ,[more or less],is how to use it in a incredibly stressful and horrendously difficult situation,that is a total parallel universe from sporting shooting.Unless you train and train dilligently in defensive shooting,having a gun is less than useless to you,and proably even dangerous.

    Even police officers who carry will tell you it isutterly traumatic,and a life changing event to have to fire at another human being.Ever wonder why you hear of reports of people being shot multiple times when only a shot or two would do,in laymans eyes?Its called "stressfire"Where even professionals ,military or police will say "I only remember firing the first shot."After emptying a 19 round mag into someone!!.This is also why the military spends so much time in training recruits to shoot at realistic enemy targets
    .A US military study found that in Vietnam 75% of troops would fire to miss their enemy.In the American civil war muskets were found that had been reloaded up to 9times and never fired!Troops had been going thru the drills of loading and firing but had never fired the gun at their enemy.So even as a trained soilder you will find it hard to shoot another human.

    Next like in the only other country I have experiance of concealed carry to private individuals being Germany.It is a very final option of the police cheif to issue this,and again it had better be very unique .[Say you are an Israeli living in Germany,it is almost an automatic grant situation.Being a journalist reporting on the Hells Angles,drug and gun running in St Pauli,Hamburgs red lite district,and getting direct death threats to you and yours wont qualify!!]

    Thing is,it only will be issued to you for as long as the threat is valid on your life. If however your job calls for it,private investigator,armed security company,etc,you have good reason to aquire a company permit,but only for duty carry.

    Ironic then too that our police consider IPSC shooting "combat training" which violates one of the most important adages of genuine combat training .You go SLOW!!!..IPSC is based on speed and accruacy and steel and paper doesnt shoot back.Real life where the bad guys shoot back is a different matter.

    To sum it all up.While an ardent beliver in CCWP ,self defence and the RTKBA,I cant see it working in Europe,although there is nothing stopping the EU weapons directive or law from member states allowing a EU version of 2a if they so wish or had the political cohjones to do.
    But it is mostly an alien concept to most Europeans and unless the people chosen are willing to take some very intense training and are just in the right place at the right time.Like sitting at that resturant last week or in the gig it will be next to useless.Trying to suggest a US solution in Europe is not going to work,as much as using western logic is going to solve the middle east problems.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Think the word is spelt C-o-n-c-e-a-l-e-d?
    Not being a spell check Nazi here ,but cancelled means somthing different.
    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

    Never crossed my mind that it was concealed. I was trying to wrap my head around cancelled permits and if i was missing something obvious whereby a firearm could be had and used without a permit for it.
    Technically said ,Yes you can get concealed carry permits in Europe in certain countries,[Germany,Czech republic,Austria,Italy]and a little known fact that also includes here in the ROI.
    But for the reasons you pointed out it is all but impossible, and not as readily available as it is in the states.
    Now the next problem is those that have had sidearms delt out to them havent ever recived another vital prerequsite ,apart from been shown how to use the gun safely ,[more or less],is how to use it in a incredibly stressful and horrendously difficult situation.........
    This is what i was going towards. Untrained persons, and i'm not talking about proficiency, with firearms for self defense or the defense of others. I guarantee in 99.9% of instances it'll be a mistaken identity (shooting someone they think has done something), shooting themselves (out of incompetence/lack of basic firearm handling knowledge) or as you've said the actual ability to separate what you think you could do from what you actually would do.
    Trying to suggest a US solution in Europe is not going to work,as much as using western logic is going to solve the middle east problems.
    Correct.
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Mod note: Folks, the legal aspects of this are well within the forum charter; no problem with that at all. But the RKBA stuff is specifically over the line, and we're standing right next to that line now. Please don't go over it...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Sparks wrote: »
    Mod note: Folks, the legal aspects of this are well within the forum charter; no problem with that at all. But the RKBA stuff is specifically over the line, and we're standing right next to that line now. Please don't go over it...

    What does rkba mean?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Sparks wrote: »
    Mod note: Folks, the legal aspects of this are well within the forum charter; no problem with that at all. But the RKBA stuff is specifically over the line, and we're standing right next to that line now. Please don't go over it...
    Thats my bad too. Apologies, got caught up in the talk.
    What does rkba mean?

    Right to Keep & Bear Arms. (RKBA)
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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    We'll try to stay on the right side of that line.:)
    Although I fear that sooner or later outside our little group this line is going to be changed in the really real world of the EU whether we like it or not.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭TeaBagMania


    Ahhhh I didn’t notice my spelling mistake either, no wonder we were on different wavelengths. Apologies Cass

    I was rushing out of work, typing fast, not paying attention to my spelling

    Ill end it here as I don’t want to get busted for RKBA :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,441 ✭✭✭Rosahane


    Interesting and sensible approach to these proposals from Finland!



    Finnish Parlament Statement Regarding Revision of Weapons Directive E 60/2015
    Original Statement:
    https://www.eduskunta.fi/FI/vaski/Lausunto/Sivut/HaVL_15+2015.aspx

    Proposal:

    In the E-letter received there is a question regarding pre-emptive measures to potential changes to weapons directive. According to letter, we can expect that European Commission proposes restrictions to private ownership of at least automatic firearms and proposes moving the semiautomatic versions of assault rifles to category A and restricting private sales of firearms over internet.

    Opinion of the Cabinet:
    Banning of the automatic weapons and restricting semiautomatic versions:
    Finland believes that commission should restrict illegal trafficingof firearms instead. Illegal trafficing will become harder once deactivation standards are aligned. According to commission this is discussed in meeting of firearms committee on 3rd of November 2015. In addition trafficing can be curbed by aligning the legislation regarding ”essential parts” of firearms in member countries more efficiently. Restrictions to internet-trade and more supervision can also prevent firearms from falling into wrong hands.

    Instead of banning private ownership permits process can be revised to control the possession of such firearms better than today for example requiring proof of need and membership in sports organization. In addtion permits could be re-evaluated periodically.

    Restrictions to arms collectors:
    Deactivated firearms have little to none collectors value and banning them does not harm shooting sports in Finland. Possession of automatic firearms should still be allowed to private collectors and museums. Also it is necessary to continue giving permits to full auto firearms for academic purposes.

    Restrictions to Internet sales:
    Instead banning internet sales, better option would be to control it. Permits should be required to purchase firearms online and sales over the bordes should controlled by improving exchange of information between the authorities.

    Arguments of the Cabinet:

    In the E-letter there is a question about pre-emptive measures regarding directive 91/477/ETY (firearms directive) revision. According to information commission has given statement on 18th of November 2015 to which U-letter is being prepared. In this statement cabinet addresses the questions regarding changes to weapons directive based on feedback received from the experts. In this weapons directive the minimum standards are set for weapons legislation in member countries. This directive only sets the minimum level for national legislation and it has proven to be inefficient regarding weapon definitions and essential parts. Due to this national legislation differs in member countries and because of this it is possible to legally buy parts and assemble firearms and transport them to another country where those parts are illegal. Therefore the current control system is inefficent and risk of getting caught is only minor.

    Based on estimates, the European Commission proposes restrictions to private ownership of at least automatic firearms and proposes moving the semiautomatic versions of assault rifles to category A and restricting private sales of firearms over internet. No detailed information is available at this time.

    Based on recent studies, these restrictions might have significant impact to private ownership of firearms and shooting sports in Finland. Depending on the proposed content, these restrictions will impact national defense, national reserve shooting events, sports shooting, hunting and weapons collecting. This also has a significant impact on gun manufacturers and retailers.

    Cabinet proposes to pay particular attention to impact for voluntary military reserve activities. Voluntary reserve has a significant role in maintaining both will and skill of the reserve. Finlands defence relies on large reserve.

    95% of the military personnel are reserve whose skills are maintained by Finnish Defence forces. Voluntary activities support this activity and ensures that reserve can support authorities.

    According to studies restrictions to semiautomatic assault rifles and machine pistols will have significant impact to skills of the armed reserve. Shooting activities are mostly performed with weapons proposed to be restricted and over time this will impact both skills and morale of the reserve. According to cabinet restricting reserve activities sends a mixed signals outside. According to studies, change also impacts the position of maanpuolustuskoulutusyhdistys as a strategic partner to Finnish Defence forces specially if possession of weapons is not allowed to public organizations.

    Banning of the private ownership of semiautomatic firearms leads to the end of the sports shooting activities like pistol shooting, IPSC and it also might impact weapons used for hunting. Banning of automatic firearms impacts collectors.

    Based on E-letter, restrictions to internet sales are vague at best. There is no information whether selling, buying or both are proposed to be restricted. The weapon types mentioned in E-letter are already requiring permits in Finland and moving them over borders requires permits as well. Customs will monitor that weapons moving across the borders have all necessary permits. Proposed restrictions perhaps try to address illegal firearms sales where parts are sourced from multiple countries exploiting the differences in legislation when it comes to deactivation standards and definitions of ”essential parts”. According to studies received by the cabinet, there have been incidents where deactivated firearms have been found to be easily converted back to functional automatic weapons. These insufficiently deactivated firearms have been found from Finland. Cabinet agrees that common deactivation standards would be an efficient mean to prevent illegal firearms trafficing and process to align standards should be expedited.

    In Finland all restrictions apply only to law abiding citizens who use firearms in authorized and controlled shooting sports. Restrictions to internet sales would introduce additional challenges to those transactions where the distance between buyer and the seller is long. This is common in Finland. Also weapon maintenance is essential part of firearm safety.

    The goal of the commission is to improve internal security of the EU. According to cabinet measures in E-letter, it is not possible to efficiently prevent obtaining firearms illegally. Instead proposed measures target already restricted legal activities. Received statements also indicate that the more strict the firearms control is, the bigger the demand for illegal firearms is.

    The changes should address restricting the illegal firearms trafficing instead. In addition cabinet states, that preventing crime in EU area requires contant efficient communication between different authorities and expert knowledge of the firearms law.

    It is the opinion of the cabinet that in Finland firearms law is strict but functional which enables safe and controlled weapons collecting, shooting sports, hunting and reserve shooting activities and participation to shooting competitions. Cabinet also believes, that EU restrictions should rather use Finnish firearms legislation as a model of a working firearms law ant try to harmonize EU legislation according to Finnish legislation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    "Finland believes that commission should restrict illegal trafficing of firearms instead"

    LOL, too logical for the EU, easier to target the people who obey the law.

    I dont understand the bit about the internet sales? Criminals arent buying AK's etc from online retailers. It makes zero sense to even go in that direction, the internet is here to stay.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I dont understand the bit about the internet sales? Criminals arent buying AK's etc from online retailers. It makes zero sense to even go in that direction, the internet is here to stay.
    It's a reasonable and sensible approach to the matter and pretty much in keeping with what i said (and every other person/country already knows):
    Cass wrote: »
    Seeing as how there are laws governing this already i thought it was a silly comment. What is needed is more money to enforce the existing laws.
    How about you just tackle the illegal guns that are out there?.
    IOW as the release says Finland would much rather enforce the laws that already exist, and not react in a kneejerk manner to the release from the EU.

    Also this piece caught my eye:
    Instead of banning private ownership permits process can be revised to control the possession of such firearms better than today for example requiring proof of need and membership in sports organization. In addtion permits could be re-evaluated periodically.
    Exactly the system we have here, already. You must show god reason and be a member of an authorised club/range.

    So once again, don't make up new laws that will only serve to destroy the legal shooting sports, but enforce the existing laws that are currently in place. By all means tighten up the laws in countries where it's not as strict, but Ireland, the UK, and it seems other EU countries already are on top of that.
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