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Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

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    #62
    CoisFharraige
    Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭CoisFharraige


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    Mebuntu wrote: »
    .

    It is significant that the entire transport industry is controlled by militant unions who know that they can easily discommode the rest of the population anytime they wish to appease their greed.

    It was inevitable that the arch-enemy IALPA, once they got their foot in the door, would look for any excuse to call a strike in FR. The idea that looking for "seniority lists" justifies inconveniencing thousands of ordinary people (the people who can afford to fly only with Ryanair) is obscene to say the least. It is nothing more than a hashtag Me Me operation.

    No one group of employees should be allowed to hold a country to ransom. Actually never mind a country--the whole continent could be brought to a standstill if this escalates.

    I am a huge trade union supporter but this union is holding a gun to the heads of innocent families that are about to take their hard earned annual holidays that they have probably been saving for months to pay for.

    Everyone knew this was coming once the unions got the foot in the door and its only going to get worse if Ryanair capitulate to their demands now. The letter to Forsa is on the Ryanair website and it really makes Forsa look like the bad guys when you read it.

    I agree that this will have terrible repurcssions for families and people across the continent, just read the comments on facebook - funerals, once-in-a-lifetime holidays for disadvantaged families etc - it’s heartbreaking.

    However, the crew have endured this abuse (yes, you can call it that) from management for years. From the fuel league tables to the base transfers, and the automatic fail of a command upgrade even before taking the exam just because a bad word was put in by management to the examiner about you (has happened many times)! It’s disgraceful carry on that not many companies practise (thankfully). I fully support the strike. They backed down at Christmas and gave Ryanair the benefit of the doubt, but Ryanair bluffed and has been painfully slow at negotiating under anything other than their own terms since. It has to happen at some time, and everyone acts in their own interest in this world. They know it’s the only time it’ll really hit-home when they see a dip in bookings and profits at HQ.


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    #63
    IngazZagni
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    Mebuntu wrote: »

    It was inevitable that the arch-enemy IALPA, once they got their foot in the door, would look for any excuse to call a strike in FR. The idea that looking for "seniority lists" justifies inconveniencing thousands of ordinary people (the people who can afford to fly only with Ryanair) is obscene to say the least. It is nothing more than a hashtag Me Me operation.

    Think about what you said for a second. This strike is indeed over something so simple. Other airline crew take this for granted. This is something that won't cost Ryanair a single cent and yet they are not willing to accept it? That just shows where management's priorities lie.

    Why can't Ryanair accept the requests for something so simple? Their attempts to "talk" are laughable. They either accept the proposals or not. It's all in Ryanairs management's hands to resolve.

    Edit: As for Ialpa. Remember it was Ryanairs decision to recognise them. They passed on the opportunity to recognise that internal RPG thing that was mentioned earlier.


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    #64
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    CoisFharraige wrote: »

    However, the crew have endured this abuse (yes, you can call it that) from management for years. From the fuel league tables to the base transfers, and the automatic fail of a command upgrade even before taking the exam just because a bad word was put in by management to the examiner about you (has happened many times)!

    These people applied for jobs in Ryanair knowing what they were like as an employer. Its the same as my industry. People know who are the good and bad employers out there. They willingly went to work for Ryanair knowing what they were like so its on their own heads.


    It’s disgraceful carry on that not many companies practise (thankfully).
    Agreed if it is as you say it is.

    I fully support the strike.

    I don't and even within the industry Im in Ive seen unions destroy companies. For example back in 2002 I was working in a heavily unionised place. It was around 28 degrees centigrade in July and someone for some reason or another found the heating not working -- not the aircon the actual heating for the building. The place went on strike in 28 degrees because the heating wasn't working. That single incident changed my views of certain unions.

    While Im still a union supporter I look very warily on them when they are unwilling to engage before issuing strike notice.
    They backed down at Christmas and gave Ryanair the benefit of the doubt, but Ryanair bluffed and has been painfully slow at negotiating under anything other than their own terms since.


    They didn't back down--it wasn't some look at us being the good guys and allowing people to take their flights at Christmas to their loved ones. They got what they wanted from Ryanair which was union recognition-that's what the threat of strike was about back then.

    The dogs in the street knew that it was only a matter of time before the unions started pushing for some unreasonable demands and /or complete changes to the way the company was run for years before and then threatening strike action and as predicted its now happened.


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    #65
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    IngazZagni wrote: »
    Why can't Ryanair accept the requests for something so simple? Their attempts to "talk" are laughable. They either accept the proposals or not. It's all in Ryanairs management's hands to resolve.

    The Unions must engage aswell.
    Edit: As for Ialpa. Remember it was Ryanairs decision to recognise them.
    A decision that was forced on them with the threat of strike action over a Christmas period. They had no choice really.
    They passed on the opportunity to recognise that internal RPG thing that was mentioned earlier.


    I don't think we should even go there.
    Were they not called a joke by Ryanair if I remember right and Im not sure I disagree with him since its council was made up of pilots who weren't even Ryanair pilots or didn't work for Ryanair.


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    #66
    IngazZagni
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    These people applied for jobs in Ryanair knowing what they were like as an employer. Its the same as my industry. People know who are the good and bad employers out there. They willingly went to work for Ryanair knowing what they were like so its on their own heads.




    They didn't back down--it wasn't some look at us being the good guys and allowing people to take their flights at Christmas to their loved ones. They got what they wanted from Ryanair which was union recognition-that's what the threat of strike was about back then.

    On the first point. Why can't people strive to improve the terms and conditions of the employer they are currently with? For many, there wouldn't be too many options of moving company if they wanted to continue living in the same place. Also the terms and conditions at Ryanair have a direct influence on terms and conditions at other airlines. When other companies go into negotiations with their staff they would say "We can't afford to pay you this or give you that because Ryanair only gives their staff x amount".

    As for your second point. What recognition? Ryanair only ever SAID they would recognise IALPA but there is still no recognition agreement in place. Nothing is signed. That info comes straight from the corporate website.


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    #67
    CoisFharraige
    Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭CoisFharraige


    QUOTE:
    These people applied for jobs in Ryanair knowing what they were like as an employer. Its the same as my industry. People know who are the good and bad employers out there. They willingly went to work for Ryanair knowing what they were like so its on their own heads.

    I don't and even within the industry Im in Ive seen unions destroy companies. For example back in 2002 I was working in a heavily unionised place. It was around 28 degrees centigrade in July and someone for some reason or another found the heating not working -- not the aircon the actual heating for the building. The place went on strike in 28 degrees because the heating wasn't working. That single incident changed my views of certain unions.

    While Im still a union supporter I look very warily on them when they are unwilling to engage before issuing strike notice.

    END QUOTE (silly phone)

    I agree with you completely on the whole union thing - some of them are horribly old-school and just so up their own arses to realise that places need to be made somewhat efficient. My parents had a company which dealt with unions - they HATED them. They were a good employer but unions don’t care - they have an agenda to push.

    Also, with regards to the choosing to work for Ryanair, it really isn’t in this industry. Let me give an explanation: a new 200-hour cadet wouldn’t (in the past more so) be hired by anybody. Nobody wanted them. Ryanair were the only company taking them, and this gave room for them to lower conditions, just supply and demand. Meanwhile, cadets have almost always got massive loans (100€K+) and are in desperate need of a job, or they’ll lose their collateral (parents’ house or whatever for some). In this case, do they have a choice? I mean yes, like they could remain jobless of course, but from a realistic perspective they actually don’t have a choice.

    Did they know what they were getting into? Probably? I know I did. Despite that, it doesn’t have to be that way, some things they could change wouldn’t cost a penny - they’d actually make more indirect revenue in increased morale etc.

    There’s no winning-side really to this argument, as everyone has a bit of blood on their hands!


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    #68
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    IngazZagni wrote: »
    On the first point. Why can't people strive to improve the terms and conditions of the employer they are currently with? For many, there wouldn't be too many options of moving company if they wanted to continue living in the same place. Also the terms and conditions at Ryanair have a direct influence on terms and conditions at other airlines. When other companies go into negotiations with their staff they would say "We can't afford to pay you this or give you that because Ryanair only gives their staff x amount".


    Ive no issues with any employee trying to better their terms and conditions. What I do have issue with is jumping straight to strike notice without any engagement with an employer.
    As for your second point. What recognition? Ryanair only ever SAID they would recognise IALPA but there is still no recognition agreement in place. Nothing is signed. That info comes straight from the corporate website.

    The recognition agreement might not be signed but its there. Forsa want to include non Ryanair pilots in that agreement and that's what stalled the talks.

    However if there is no formal recognition in place then surely this strike is illegal as Ryanair would have to deal individually with each pilot and not their union?? I could be wrong here but if I remember right an unrecognised union cant issue strike notice to an employer for a group of employees ie. they have to do it individually??

    So would Ryanair be within their rights to discipline any pilot that doesn't show up for work on that day or hasn't individually issued strike notice??


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    #69
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    Ive no issues with any employee trying to better their terms and conditions. What I do have issue with is jumping straight to strike notice without any engagement with an employer.

    I strongly disagree with this assessment. We all know Ryanair's staff has been particularly unhappy for years about their work conditions and their employer hasn't been listening to their feedback in the slightest. This includes a previous strike which was called-off in December and (unsuccessful) attempts for talks since then.

    One might not support strikes, but saying that this one comes out of nowhere is absolutly not correct IMO - it's being building-up for years. Personally and given the history of the company I think it is rather insulting to Ryanair pilots to say they are "jumping straight to strike notice without any engagement with [their] employer", and I am pretty sure a majority of them would rather not strike if they thought there was another way to get things moving.


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    #70
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    Bob24 wrote: »
    I strongly disagree with this assessment. We all know Ryanair's staff has been particularly unhappy for years about their work conditions and their employer hasn't been listening to their feedback in the slightest.

    That's fair enough if employees aren't happy.

    This includes a previous strike which was called-off in December and (unsuccessful) attempts for talks since then.

    The previous strike as Ive already said was based on the employees wanting union recognition which they got. Ryanair are saying they have tried to get all partries around a table multiple times but Forsa are unwilling to go to Airside to do so.
    One might not support strikes, but saying that this one comes out of nowhere is absolutly not correct IMO - it's being building-up for years.

    Maybe that's the case but the employees who are now represented by unions have to engage with Ryanair through the unions and up till now (according to Ryanair) have not done so after 18 attempts. The letter today makes Forsa look like the bad guys here despite what they are saying.

    It actually looks like Forsa want this strike to go ahead no matter what without trying to remedy the situation by sitting down with Ryanair.


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    #71
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Everyone knew this was coming once the unions got the foot in the door and its only going to get worse if Ryanair capitulate to their demands now.

    That's your 'hot take' on the situation is it....?
    Ryanair invited in some sort of a Trojan horse when they agreed to recognise trade unions and the sole aim of this union is to destroy the company of the members that it represents...?
    And then what...?


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    #72
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    billy few mates wrote: »
    That's your 'hot take' on the situation is it....?

    If that's the way you want to phrase it then yeah Ill play ball.

    Ryanair invited in some sort of a Trojan horse when they agreed to recognise trade unions and the sole aim of this union is to destroy the company of the members that it represents...?

    No what I said was "Ive seen unions destroy companies"
    That's personal experience by the way.

    And yes Ive seen unions ruin companies where the people they are trying to represent have actually come off worse once a union gets it foot in the door.
    Employees can be better off by local bargaining rather than collective bargaining.

    However in saying that where a union is willing to negotiate with an employer both parties usually come out on top.

    The employer doesn't feel like they've given in and the union gets some consessions for their members.

    In this case Forsa have not attended any meetings for whatever reasons and Ryanair have said that they have made 18 attempts to sit down and sort things out.

    If what Ryanair are saying is true then what Im proposing is correct ie Forsa want this strike to go ahead regardless of the implications to their members(who will have zero wages while the strike goes on) and the general public who will loose money on holidays booked etc.
    And then what...?

    Depends on the outcome of talks if any take place.
    If Ryanair give in to these demands without any consessions then next year we`ll have more demands and so on as the unions will realise that Ryanair are focussed on company profits and will give in.

    If Ryanair don't give in then we are in for a serious round of strike action throughout the summer months.

    Whatever your opinion on this both sides need to get together as soon as possible and fix this before next week. Maybe some sort of mediation by the WRC would be preferable to both sides.


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    #73
    View Profile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭View Profile


    Hellrazer wrote:
    No what I said was "Ive seen unions destroy companies" That's personal experience by the way.


    Ryanair has been union free for it's entire existence.
    This allowed them to abuse, intimidate, and control their workforce with impunity.

    Thankfully, pilots and cabin crew are finally in a position where they can better their conditions.
    Ryanair refused to negotiate responsibly and so left with no alternative a strike was called. The nature of a strike is customers are affected. That's the downside of striking. Would you rather the staff endure another 30 years of abuse so your travel plans aren't disrupted??

    Now who's being selfish.


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    #74
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,720 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    rivegauche wrote: »
    and I expect that those 126 Pilots will apportion their seniority somewhat fairly "amongst" themselves and they'll have their seniority already baked in when ever or if ever they decide to do something about the many hundreds of other Irish Ryanair Pilots who didn't have the ability to vote on this important topic which has a very real impact on their quality of life......................
    How many FR pilots are there in Ireland? There are approx 35 Irish based aircraft. Of the 126, we are told that most are Captains. So let’s guess that 100 are captains, thus there must be approx 100 other 1st officers, of which 26 are direct employees.
    Do you assume that these ppl who share a small space for 7-10 hours a day don’t talk to each other about ongoing employment issues?
    It’s not like this vote deliberately excluded the company contractors, it’s that there is not official method to take votes from contractors.


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    #75
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    View Profile wrote: »
    Would you rather the staff endure another 30 years of abuse so your travel plans aren't disrupted??

    Anyone who stays in the same abusive job for 30 years when they have options is crazy. Whatever about cabin crew (and there are few old cabin crew in Ryanair), pilots can leave and get alternative jobs with relative ease.


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    #76
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,805 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    markpb wrote:
    Anyone who stays in the same abusive job for 30 years when they have options is crazy. Whatever about cabin crew (and there are few old cabin crew in Ryanair), pilots can leave and get alternative jobs with relative ease.


    Again, life is not black or white, as some people believe it to be, leaving employment is not as easy as it seems, particularly when life responsibilities such as family commitments are in place. We, the general public, should not be encouraging employers to treat their staff as such.


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    #77
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,521 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    O'Leary pushed the staff hard and loudly p*ssed all over the union heads at every opportunity for years.

    This is the unions chance to teach him a good lesson.


    Iv no sympathy for either side, the unions will hold the place to ransom too if allowed.


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    #78
    View Profile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭View Profile


    markpb wrote:
    Anyone who stays in the same abusive job for 30 years when they have options is crazy. Whatever about cabin crew (and there are few old cabin crew in Ryanair), pilots can leave and get alternative jobs with relative ease.


    Good luck finding another Captains job in Dublin!
    Yeah you can move overseas (again) and see your kids grow up via Skype or pull them away from their school friends and family.
    So it's not as easy as you say.


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    #79
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    markpb wrote: »
    Anyone who stays in the same abusive job for 30 years when they have options is crazy. Whatever about cabin crew (and there are few old cabin crew in Ryanair), pilots can leave and get alternative jobs with relative ease.

    If every time there are things to address in terms of work conditions and employee/employer relations the answer was “if you don’t like it you can leave”, nothing would ever change and issues would never get addressed.

    Your mistake is that you are looking at employees individually rather than as a group which evolves over time but can retain consistant goals/frustrations even though it is not formed of the exact same individuals.

    So yes individually people can move on (and they do), but it doesn’t mean that as a group employees can’t seek changes to their work conditions.

    And the employer can rightly or wrongly refuse to entertain their employees’ requests, but then it shouldn’t come as a surprise that things gradually escalate (and again, the individuals who are planning to strike this summer are not necessarily the same who would have complained about things to management 5 years ago - many of them would have moved on - but for employees as a group the same request formulated 5 years ago can have been retained overtime and be escalating to a stike today given the lack of previous progress).


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    #80
    CoisFharraige
    Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭CoisFharraige


    markpb wrote: »
    View Profile wrote: »
    Would you rather the staff endure another 30 years of abuse so your travel plans aren't disrupted??
    Anyone who stays in the same abusive job for 30 years when they have options is crazy. Whatever about cabin crew (and there are few old cabin crew in Ryanair), pilots can leave and get alternative jobs with relative ease.

    I don’t know of anybody serving 30 years in Ryanair as a captain.

    I can’t not argue against your statement. You have no choice as a low-hour cadet but to join Ryanair (more so in the past). You’ll have a huge loan and a family or bank to pay back. Subsequent years need to be passed at the company whilst you build enough hours to unfreeze your ATPL and get out, meanwhile you haven’t got a choice but to endure the conditions. Changing jobs in this industry, especially as a pilot, is definitely not easy. You mightn’t even get hired in the first place by another company - let alone be able to find one hiring low-hour FOs.


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    #81
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Based on how belligerent the Pilots union are I could see Ryanair not converting any more contractors to employees, waiting for the next downturn, let the number of Ryanair employed pilots reduce through natural wastage and hire qualified crew who don't need (much) in company training.

    For the cabin crew who are going on strike for genuine reasons I can see Ryanair being somewhat open but if it costs them more than the cost of using cabin crew through competing contracting companies who are more at arms length than the current arrangement then contracting is the way to go.

    Consistently striking crew are an existential problem for a company and I can see them embracing a full proper arms length contracting model which is resilient to challenge in the Courts around Europe than converting everyone to Ryanair employee numbers because then the Unions can take hold.

    Contracting isn't illegal. The way Ryanair contract at the moment might be considered illegal by some Judges.

    If I were Management I'd be considering the consequences of capitulating. It is too late for the likes of Lufthansa now. VC are the tail wagging that dog. It isn't too late for Ryanair.


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    #82
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    rivegauche wrote: »
    Based on how belligerent the Pilots union are I could see Ryanair not converting any more contractors to employees, waiting for the next downturn, let the number of Ryanair employed pilots reduce through natural wastage and hire qualified crew who don't need (much) in company training.

    For the cabin crew who are going on strike for genuine reasons I can see Ryanair being somewhat open but if it costs them more than the cost of using cabin crew through competing contracting companies who are more at arms length than the current arrangement then contracting is the way to go.

    Consistently striking crew are an existential problem for a company and I can see them embracing a full proper arms length contracting model which is resilient to challenge in the Courts around Europe than converting everyone to Ryanair employee numbers because then the Unions can take hold.

    Contracting isn't illegal. The way Ryanair contract at the moment might be considered illegal by some Judges.

    If I were Management I'd be considering the consequences of capitulating. It is too late for the likes of Lufthansa now. VC are the tail wagging that dog. It isn't too late for Ryanair.

    <SNIP> Personal comments are NOT allowed

    Those days are long gone mate, nobody wants to put up with crap conditions for job security, nobody with any ambition who knows the value of their own worth anyway. Life is full of opportunities and options, as one door closes another one opens. Loyalty is a two way street, companies need to create an environment where people want to work for them because they like it, not because they think it's the best of a bad lot.


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    #83
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Are FR still refusing to meet at a neutral venue ? In industrial relation terms, this is called thumbing a nose to the process. I had other words but this is a family forum.

    Normally I'm not a great fan of certain unions, but this one I think they need to sort out.


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    #84
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    billy few mates wrote: »

    Those days are long gone mate, nobody wants to put up with crap conditions for job security, nobody with any ambition who knows the value of their own worth anyway. Life is full of opportunities and options, as one door closes another one opens. Loyalty is a two way street, companies need to create an environment where people want to work for them because they like it, not because they think it's the best of a bad lot.

    Like other professionals, Pilots are going to see that the world of work is changing and while they may work a full career in their chosen career they will probably not be employed by the company whose planes they fly.

    A key decision will be whether a Pilot is considered "Strategic", "Core" or "Non-Core" to an organisation's success. A qualified pilot is the same as another qualified pilot to the Company. They can competently acquit the task they have been set but their influence on the success of the Company doesn't extend beyond the flights they operate for the Company.

    A pilot is going to be an obvious target for outsourcing and they won't be the first professionals who though essential to service delivery are outsourced.

    The pilot won't be employed by the Company in future and will instead be employed by a Vendor\Service provider. If the pilots who are now employed by a third party organise and strike then the Vendor\Service provider will be unable to service their contract and the Company goes to another service provider who will provide qualified pilots.

    I don't see how the Pilots can in the long term tease out a resolution so that they are employed by the Airline they want, working at the airport they want to work, at the Salary they want and with the conditions they expect going forward once Ryanair ensure they contract out their work in compliance with local legislation. It may have an impact on Ryanair's cost base but they won't end up with staff costs that are higher than their competitors and they will be strike-proof. Ryanair has the resources and time to arrange their affairs so that they become strike-proof.


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    #85
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    trellheim wrote: »
    Are FR still refusing to meet at a neutral venue ?

    Yes they are, and to my knowledge they haven’t explained why (doesn’t seem to be the cost as the union has apparently offered to pay for the venue).


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    #86
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,128 ✭✭✭plodder


    rivegauche wrote: »
    Like other professionals, Pilots are going to see that the world of work is changing and while they may work a full career in their chosen career they will probably not be employed by the company whose planes they fly.

    A key decision will be whether a Pilot is considered "Strategic", "Core" or "Non-Core" to an organisation's success. A qualified pilot is the same as another qualified pilot to the Company. They can competently acquit the task they have been set but their influence on the success of the Company doesn't extend beyond the flights they operate for the Company.

    A pilot is going to be an obvious target for outsourcing and they won't be the first professionals who though essential to service delivery are outsourced.

    The pilot won't be employed by the Company in future and will instead be employed by a Vendor\Service provider. If the pilots who are now employed by a third party organise and strike then the Vendor\Service provider will be unable to service their contract and the Company goes to another service provider who will provide qualified pilots.

    I don't see how the Pilots can in the long term tease out a resolution so that they are employed by the Airline they want, working at the airport they want to work, at the Salary they want and with the conditions they expect going forward once Ryanair ensure they contract out their work in compliance with local legislation. It may have an impact on Ryanair's cost base but they won't end up with staff costs that are higher than their competitors and they will be strike-proof. Ryanair has the resources and time to arrange their affairs so that they become strike-proof.
    I don't see why it has to work out that way. In this country we tend to be quite fatalistic about things like this, and you see it all the time on this website, with people just accepting whatever Ryanair and other big companies throw at them. The answer is always just "fly with someone else" or "get a job with someone else". But we live in a democracy and we don't actually have to let companies do this. Granted there are legitimate reasons for using contractors, but I don't see why the entire cohort of pilots of an airline needs to be employed at arms length. The reason why is clearly to avoid the requirements and costs associated with employment rights. And gven the whole trans national aspect to aviation, it's something I can see the EU getting more actively involved in.


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    #87
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Yes they are, and to my knowledge they haven’t explained why (doesn’t seem to be the cost as the union has apparently offered to pay for the venue).

    The venue doesn't matter as Forsa have already attended meetings there and are now refusing to visit Airside for talks. They were only there last week for talks about cabin crew terms and conditions.


    Im still of the opinion that Forsa want this strike to go ahead regardless of what Ryanair do.


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    #88
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    The venue doesn't matter as Forsa have already attended meetings there and are now refusing to visit Airside for talks. They were only there last week for talks about cabin crew terms and conditions.


    Im still of the opinion that Forsa want this strike to go ahead regardless of what Ryanair do.

    If the venue doesn’t matter and is just an excuse to strike, why is Ryanair not announcing that they are ready to meet at a third party location and taking away that excuse from the union?

    Looks like to me it does matter to both parties.


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    #89
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,581 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    Bob24 wrote: »
    If the venue doesn’t matter and is just an excuse to strike, why is Ryanair not announcing that they are ready to meet at a third party location and taking away that excuse from the union?

    Looks like to me it does matter to both parties.

    Well why wont Forsa go to Airside as they've been there before in order to take that excuse away from Ryanair?


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    #90
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Hellrazer wrote: »
    Well why wont Forsa go to Airside as they've been there before in order to take that excuse away from Ryanair?

    Because the venue matters to them (as it does to Ryanair). That’s what I was saying, it looks like it matters to both parties - if no one is budging you can’t call it an excuse used by one of the 2 parties as they are both equally contributing to the deadlock.


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    #91
    IngazZagni
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    It doesn't matter where both parties have met in the past. This is a separate issue. If Ryanair can't even agree to negotiate at a neutral venue then what sort of attitude would their management have at the actual negotiations?

    Trying to dictate the venue is just them trying to control the situation and show who's in charge.


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