Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

devnull

I do not know of any employer that would entertain the request of staff to meet at external premises to discuss issues which certainly would include commercially sensitive information that would normally be kept internally.

IngazZagni wrote: »

Trying to dictate the venue is just them trying to control the situation and show who's in charge.

In this situation you really need to read between the lines as both parties are clearly spinning for their own agendas at the moment and rather than this being about venues themselves, it may well be about who controls access to the venues. Both sides want control from what I can see.

I assume that the reason the union do not want to meet Ryanair at HQ is that Ryanair would then be able to refuse anyone entry that they did not want to be there. On the other hand, if the union are booking the room, they would retain that control which is why they are offering to pay for it.

Both sides have their own agenda here and it's difficult to see with their entrenched positions how they are going to come to some agreement, I assume IALPA may want their non Ryanair staff there and I could see why they would want to do that, but as someone who has worked in HR, there's no way I'd want that to happen.

L1011

It is not normal, at all, for these kind of meetings to occur on employer premises.

You have been warned before about making assumptions and implications about IALPA devnull, I hope we don't need to do it again...

Bob24

devnull wrote: »

I do not know of any employer that would entertain the request of staff to meet at external premises to discuss issues which certainly would include commercially sensitive information that would normally be kept internally.

I’ve seen sensitive information discussed off premise (usually conference rooms in hotels) at all the companies I worked at. Sometimes on purpose to keep a confidential workgroup off the radar. It’s not like the CIA is going to bug the room to be first to know about Ryanair’s new employment policies ...

markpb

markpb wrote: »

Anyone who stays in the same abusive job for 30 years when they have options is crazy. Whatever about cabin crew (and there are few old cabin crew in Ryanair), pilots can leave and get alternative jobs with relative ease.

Tell that to the Monarch pilots some of whom it took 6 months to get new jobs and this in a boom period for aviation.

Hellrazer

IngazZagni wrote: »

It doesn't matter where both parties have met in the past. This is a separate issue.

Same union. Similar issue. They already met Ryanair management there.

If Ryanair can't even agree to negotiate at a neutral venue then what sort of attitude would their management have at the actual negotiations?

And if Forsa cant agree to meet at a venue they have already had discussions at then what does it say about their attitude at the actual negotiations??

Trying to dictate the venue is just them trying to control the situation and show who's in charge.

Both of them are trying to control the situation.

Your argument works both ways and can be used to twist any argument depending on which side you support.

Bob24

Just saw this: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ryanair-launches-stinging-attack-on-pilots-union-claiming-it-has-no-mandate-to-disrupt-flights-37088392.html

“Ryanair’s Irish passengers should not be disrupted next Thursday when this strike has the support of just 94 of Ryanair’s over 350 Irish pilots,” it said in a statement.

“This is a quorum of just 27pc, and significantly less than one third of Ryanair’s Irish pilots.”

I won’t spend much time on the fact that they are voluntarily mixing-up FTEs and contractors to claim “this is a quarum of just 27pc” (if you look at the facts, Ryanair FTEs who are the only pilots in a position to strike almost all voted in favour). I would be interested in knowing whether Ryanair would be as comfortable to say they have 350 Irish pilots in front of a court and discussing the legality of their legal framework for employing contractors.

What’s more important is the type of employer-employee relashionship they are creating by saying these things and claiming that when virtually all pilots employed by Ryanair in Ireland express the same vote, this doesn’t consititute any legitimate mandate for action.

Forget the union for a second, this type of manipulative and provocative statement and behaviour can only create very bad relashionships between staff and management in any company. Pilots know this is BS and will simply become even more angry at their employer. I understand Ryanair’s communication strategy is to try to publicly appear as the victim of a conspiracy with Aer Lingus as a mastermind, but what I find crazy is that apparently they don’t care about the consequence on their relashionship with their employees.

Hellrazer

L1011 wrote: »

It is not normal, at all, for these kind of meetings to occur on employer premises.

Ive seen and been part of negotiations and seen them take place in both neutral places and at employers premises.

At the minute while the actual venue doesn't really matter(my earlier posts are purely to point out the fact that both sides`arguments can be interchanged depending what side you support) its all about controlling the negotiations.

Its a typical employer vs union tactic ie try to control every single aspect of the negotiations. And this tip-toeing around will continue until either a third party decides to facilitate talks or one of the parties gives in and relinquishes some of their control.

At the end of the day they both need to sit down at a table and hammer this out. Im surprised the WRC hasn't offered to facilitate these talks yet--I was hoping for something like that to happen today or Monday at the latest.

Brendan Bendar

This dispute has been building for ages.

Would be surprised if it didn't go ahead.

FR has had a 'clean canvas' up to now, they can't offer the fares they offer by paying everyone top dollar and top conditions.

This is a new area for them, staff tied up for days and days dealing with disputes.

Fleet re shuffles,re routings, the customer fallout, anger at airports,claims etc etc.

Lot of people who could 'get things done' in that company quickly and easily will soon find out a huge change and have to adapt to new scenario.

rivegauche

The Sunday Business Post reports that Ryanair are going to face down the Union.

http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Dhgx_ZrW4AALr6W.jpg

rivegauche

If strike goes ahead then it will be clear who outside the pilots' union is willing to cross a picket line.
Passengers with travel plans will be on any planes that are running. Union can't look to them for support. Maybe some cabin crew will come out in support but not enough of them to do damage. Who else in the Airports will support them...time will tell.

Mebuntu

Where will the picket line be, I wonder?

From previous I think it isn't allowed to be on DAA soil.

If at the Roundabout who else might not pass it?

The last time a Ryanair strike was attempted (baggage handlers 1998) the unions closed the airport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zEVvGRiCLw

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2018/0305/945172-chaos-at-dublin-airport/

L1011

Facing down, that'll work...

Any idea of "I'll fly Ryanair, they don't cancel flights or go on strike..." has been shredded in the past year and a half. They are now worse for both than anyone else flying in and out of Ireland, BA included.

Bob24

L1011 wrote: »

Facing down, that'll work...

Any idea of "I'll fly Ryanair, they don't cancel flights or go on strike..." has been shredded in the past year and a half. They are now worse for both than anyone else flying in and out of Ireland, BA included.

Yep, it is probably a bit oversimplified, but yesterday the Guardian summarised Ryanair’s success as having been built on a reputation for being “reliable bastards”. They can’t afford to lose the first qualifier in that summary.

john boye

rivegauche wrote: »

The Sunday Business Post reports that Ryanair are going to face down the Union.

http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Dhgx_ZrW4AALr6W.jpg

They said the same thing last Christmas.

Hellrazer

rivegauche wrote: »

The Sunday Business Post reports that Ryanair are going to face down the Union.

http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Dhgx_ZrW4AALr6W.jpg

Poor Ryanair they've a lot to learn about dealing with unions.
But then again they are new to it.

trellheim

It is telling we have no update on this. Where the butt-kicking from the Govt on this ? I'd threaten to introduce a passenger duty and a few other things to soften the cough here.

5rtytry56

Govt has more respect for the "articles" about Ryanair in Sunday Business Post than it does for welfare of passengers.

Brendan Bendar

trellheim wrote: »

It is telling we have no update on this. Where the butt-kicking from the Govt on this ? I'd threaten to introduce a passenger duty and a few other things to soften the cough here.

Private company horse, nowt to do with Govt.

Can’t have it everyway.

rivegauche

trellheim wrote: »

It is telling we have no update on this. Where the butt-kicking from the Govt on this ? I'd threaten to introduce a passenger duty and a few other things to soften the cough here.

Introduce a passenger duty to what end? to make a number of routes in and out of Ireland un-viable and to discourage transfer traffic? You do know that the passenger duty is always ultimately paid by the passenger and airlines are just the collector?
Since the two parties haven't even been to the Labour Court I wouldn't expect to hear a peep out of the Government and any Politician with any political Nous would know to keep their trap shut otherwise the Unions will be striking every peak period going forward.

So where are we on this Sunday evening.
Strike looming.
Ryanair making it clear that they won't roll over.
Ryanair in making it clear that they won't roll over sending a signal to all pilots that they won't be willingly increasing the % of company employed pilots and all those pilots who harboured hopes of a job where they are home every evening seeing those hopes disappearing over the horizon behind them.

LCCs are a great employer in that while they may work you to the bone they usually have you home each night if they are executing to plan.
It is all very well being a well paid pilot(and Ryanair pilots are well paid now although the people who visit here won't admit it) but you can't exactly brag about being a (sic) high flying pilot thousands of miles away with some Drunk in the Hotel bar while you have to sip virgin bloody marys and your head about to explode due to the effect your career is having on your circadian rhythm.

So the number of directly employed pilots is probably now going to wither and contractors if they are to be properly judged contractors might not have more than a few years firm contract operating out of Dublin and to avoid any accusations of being actual Ryanair pilots they will be rotated out of the contracting company after X years. Good luck making long term plans as a wannabe 737 pilot without a full-time contract in Ireland now that the Unions have thrown the rattle out of the pram but the 126 pilots who voted for strike action will OK(in the short term).

Ryanair had mentioned in the last financial year end meeting they had a €200m labour yearly cost increase of which 100m was the cost to address to push up existing pay and the remainder to prepare for future growth. That was the prize. The pilots by their strike-happy actions have ensured that they'll be getting as little more of that as possible.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

Introduce a passenger duty to what end? to make a number of routes in and out of Ireland un-viable and to discourage transfer traffic? You do know that the passenger duty is always ultimately paid by the passenger and airlines are just the collector?
Since the two parties haven't even been to the Labour Court I wouldn't expect to hear a peep out of the Government and any Politician with any political Nous would know to keep their trap shut otherwise the Unions will be striking every peak period going forward.

So where are we on this Sunday evening.
Strike looming.
Ryanair making it clear that they won't roll over.
Ryanair in making it clear that they won't roll over sending a signal to all pilots that they won't be willingly increasing the % of company employed pilots and all those pilots who harboured hopes of a job where they are home every evening seeing those hopes disappearing over the horizon behind them.

LCCs are a great employer in that while they may work you to the bone they usually have you home each night if they are executing to plan.
It is all very well being a well paid pilot(and Ryanair pilots are well paid now although the people who visit here won't admit it) but you can't exactly brag about being a (sic) high flying pilot thousands of miles away with some Drunk in the Hotel bar while you have to sip virgin bloody marys and your head about to explode due to the effect your career is having on your circadian rhythm.

So the number of directly employed pilots is probably now going to wither and contractors if they are to be properly judged contractors might not have more than a few years firm contract operating out of Dublin and to avoid any accusations of being actual Ryanair pilots they will be rotated out of the contracting company after X years. Good luck making long term plans as a wannabe 737 pilot without a full-time contract in Ireland now that the Unions have thrown the rattle out of the pram but the 126 pilots who voted for strike action will OK(in the short term).

Ryanair had mentioned in the last financial year end meeting they had a €200m labour yearly cost increase of which 100m was the cost to address to push up existing pay and the remainder to prepare for future growth. That was the prize. The pilots by their strike-happy actions have ensured that they'll be getting as little more of that as possible.

What on earth are you on about..?
Did you read any of this as you were typing..?

trellheim

Private company horse, nowt to do with Govt.

Can’t have it everyway.

What ? Of course you can. There are many sticks you can use to beat a company that doesn't want to get round a table. One of which I suggested - e.g. introduce an APD - there are many others.

billy few mates

trellheim wrote: »

It is telling we have no update on this. Where the butt-kicking from the Govt on this ? I'd threaten to introduce a passenger duty and a few other things to soften the cough here.

trellheim wrote: »

What ? Of course you can. There are many sticks you can use to beat a company that doesn't want to get round a table. One of which I suggested - e.g. introduce an APD - there are many others.

Interesting, would you like to see the government intervening in all IR disputes between private companies and their employees or just this particular one...?

It appears you've already made your mind up as to which side you'd like them to take...:rolleyes:

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

What on earth are you on about..?
Did you read any of this as you were typing..?

While it might not register with you it would mean something to Pilots who have struggled to secure a permanent position and/or experienced the soul destroying existence of working remotely or long haul.

billy few mates

billy few mates wrote: »

What on earth are you on about..?
Did you read any of this as you were typing..?

rivegauche wrote: »

While it might not register with you it would mean something to Pilots who have struggled to secure a permanent position and/or experienced the soul destroying existence of working remotely or long haul.

That'll be a no then...

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

While it might not register with you it would mean something to Pilots who have struggled to secure a permanent position and/or experienced the soul destroying existence of working remotely or long haul.

Understanding the situation of these pilots and the fact that it’s far from ideal is easy and I am pretty sure most posters here do.

What’s harder to grasp is why you think it has to do with the union. Ryanair’s strategy has always been to have as few full time employees as possible. This didn’t start with the unionisation of its pilots and regardless of unionisation I doubt they have/had any plan to significantly reduce or increase the ratio (their strategy is to keep a minimum number of FTE to secure their operational needs - especially for captains - and to use contractors as much as they can once they feel their core FTE team is large enough to provide that security, and they already are at what they see as the sweet spot).

You can disagree with the union, but blaming it for what has been the company strategy pretty much forever is simply bizarre.

rivegauche

95 Irish pilots eligible to vote for strike action will wither away to under 50 within 5 years. That is not bizarre, that is what is going to happen. You might want to characterize it otherwise.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

95 Irish pilots eligible to vote for strike action will wither away to under 50 within 5 years. That is not bizarre, that is what is going to happen. You might want to characterize it otherwise.

You can't just make something up and offer it as a fact, it devalues your other arguments which basically seems to be "far better to put up with the current crappy situation for the next thirty years than risk losing your job or possibly never seeing your kids again..."

Is that really what you're suggesting...?

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

95 Irish pilots eligible to vote for strike action will wither away to under 50 within 5 years. That is not bizarre, that is what is going to happen. You might want to characterize it otherwise.

You are overlooking 2 things IMO:
- Ryanair needs a minimum number of FTEs to secure its operations. And if they though they could do with 50 pilots this is what they would do. Unionisation has very little influence on the figure if any, as the target is always to minimise the figure as much as possible anyway.
- There is growing political and judicial presssure both in Ireland and in the EU against Ryanair current operating model related to contract workers. Thinking they will be able to push it even further is optimistic to say the least.

Again, you are blaming the union for something which is part of the core strategy of the company and existed way before that union was in the picture.

rivegauche

billy few mates wrote: »

You can't just make something up and offer it as a fact, it devalues your other arguments which basically seems to be "far better to put up with the current crappy situation for the next thirty years than risk losing your job or possibly never seeing your kids again..."

Is that really what you're suggesting...?

If my organisation is able to radically adjust contractor/full time employed ratios within months then Ryanair can definitely address their militant employee issue within 5 years. It's like you are at an early stage on the Kuebler-Ross change curve.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

If my organisation is able to radically adjust contractor/full time employed ratios within months then Ryanair can definitely address their militant employee issue within 5 years. It's like you are at an early stage on the Kuebler-Ross change curve.

Do you honestly think training captains are going to work as contractors in any great numbers? Or any captains in fact?