Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

rivegauche

Bob24 wrote: »

The union only represents Ryanair employees and contractors aren’t Ryanair employees.

This is the “beauty” (and I don’t say this in a positive way) of Ryanair’s business model: most pilots are technically their own bosses but since they are exclusively working for Ryanair and paid hourly (I believe with financial penalties when they refuse to work at requested times), they have no leverage.

A fact which the Union, not the Employer, is now exploiting to turn the people who they work alongside day in, day out in to individuals who are less deserving of time off to see their family or be based close to home.
A reprehensible pre-meditated selfish action.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

A fact which the Union, not the Employer, is now exploiting to turn the people who they work alongside day in, day out in to individuals who are less deserving of time off to see their family or be based close to home.
A reprehensible pre-meditated selfish action.

FTEs are just defending their own interest through a union. I don’t see any problem here.

Because contractors are treated poorly doesn’t mean FTEs should not defend what they see as their legitimate interest.

plodder

Bob24 wrote: »

This is the “beauty” (and I don’t say this in a positive way) of Ryanair’s business model: most pilots are technically their own bosses but since they are exclusively working for Ryanair and paid hourly (I believe with financial penalties when they refuse to work at requested times), they have no leverage.

I'm aware of all that, and I've often said I don't even know how they've gotten away with it (legally). But, I find it odd that the union would exclude these people from voting in the ballot. That sounds to me like they're not that interested in representing the contractors.

rivegauche

If you don't see how morally wrong this is then I can't convince you.
Supposedly the Pilots wished to establish a Union to protect the rights of workers and the Ryanair Pilot Group sought "Professional Treatment for Professional Pilots" which has now mutated in to a strike action where some "Professional Pilots" who happen to have tenure are militating to get preferential treatment at the expense of other "Professional Pilots" who provide their services directly and only to Ryanair but don't have a full time contract of ongoing employment; which the RPG would have previously argued were de facto employees of Ryanair.
They're professional pilots otherwise they wouldn't be let near the cabin of a plane but what RPG supposedly stood for has now been forgotten while some selfish so-and-sos elbow their way to the trough.

We are "through the Looking glass" now.

PCros

rivegauche wrote: »

Considering the magnitude of the despicable unilateral action by the Unions I'm not surprised that they can't begin to cancel flights before Tuesday.

I think its a case where there could be a breakthrough over the next few days which would a better outcome instead of cancelling flights now.

Tuesday would be the latest that they could leave it.

CoisFharraige

plodder wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

This is the “beauty” (and I don’t say this in a positive way) of Ryanair’s business model: most pilots are technically their own bosses but since they are exclusively working for Ryanair and paid hourly (I believe with financial penalties when they refuse to work at requested times), they have no leverage.

I'm aware of all that, and I've often said I don't even know how they've gotten away with it (legally). But, I find it odd that the union would exclude these people from voting in the ballot. That sounds to me like they're not that interested in representing the contractors.

Legally, the contractors cannot participate in ballots for strike action (they can’t even strike). They aren’t excluding them on purpose. This business model is under threat in mainland Europe now anyway with some countries beginning to stop it, such as Germany. Ryanair can easily dismiss their ‘services’ (not them) if they strike, whereas for their own employees it’s much more challenging to dismiss them, from a legal perspective (even though I wouldn’t put it past them).

Employees have the right to strike, contractors don’t - that’s the main problem with this. You’ll find that the union’s objective isn’t to separate the pilots or get some of them a good deal whilst excluding others, but more so an attack on Ryanair and MOL.

trellheim

I have always wondered - I thought this contractor style of employment was thrown out as effectively they have no other employer and their hours of work are set

Or am I thinking of deliveroo or something

rivegauche

CoisFharraige wrote: »

You’ll find that the union’s objective isn’t to separate the pilots or get some of them a good deal whilst excluding others, but more so an attack on Ryanair and MOL.

I judge them by their actions and their action has been to seek to secure preferential holidays and terms for some at the expense of other professional pilots.
If they were pursuing issues like a reasonable 80/20 split between employees/contacted staff from the outset I'd view them differently.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

I judge them by their actions and their action has been to seek to secure preferential holidays and terms for some at the expense of other professional pilots.
If they were pursuing issues like a reasonable 80/20 split between employees/contacted staff from the outset I'd view them differently.

You need to understand that the goal of a union is to defend the interest of its members / FTEs of the company where they operate.

I agree the FTE/contractor ratio is not right, but what exactly do you reckon the union should do about it at this stage? Neither the law nor Ryanair recognises them the role of representing pilots which are self-employed service providers (as per a legal structure designed by Ryanair).

IMO this was key in Ryanair’s decision to recognise unions: they were seeing pilots organising at a pan-European level and regardless of legal status to start challenging management, and while it looked like a weakness recognising unions was a way to fragment the conflict at a national level and reduce the scope to FTEs (you will note that Ryanair never engaged with the pan-European representative group pilots were trying to establish, i.e. they are they ones who closed the door to this type of representation system and chose to go for national unions instead).

Your view that the union is working *against* contractors when they try to get more benefits for FTEs is also a bit strange. Because someone gains something doesn’t mean they are working against others. Otherwise next time you get a promotion or a big pay rise, you would be guilty of seeking personal benefit at the expense of your colleagues in the exact same way you are saying full time Ryanair pilots are seeking a better package at the expense of contractors.

rivegauche

Bob24 wrote: »

You need to understand that the goal of a union is to defend the interest of its members / FTEs of the company where they operate.

That is not anywhere near the same thing as the stated aims of the RPG and the aims of the RPG was/is were/are the trojan horse which has been used to introduce the Union whose first strike action will be an attempt to steal first dibs on holidays and bases away from the Professionals with which they share the cockpits of their planes. 126 pilots wouldn't keep all the Irish based planes in the air for a quarter of the year at somewhere approaching 900 hours per year across 50 to 70 planes(not sure of figure) needing 2 pilots in the cockpit.

CoisFharraige

Cabin crew have just published their charter of demands following the summit with FORSA in Dublin today. Some very doable things that most airlines offer already. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0704/976236-ryanair/

IngazZagni

rivegauche wrote: »

That is not anywhere near the same thing as the stated aims of the RPG and the aims of the RPG was/is were/are the trojan horse which has been used to introduce the Union whose first strike action will be an attempt to steal first dibs on holidays and bases away from the Professionals with which they share the cockpits of their planes. 126 pilots wouldn't keep all the Irish based planes in the air for a quarter of the year at somewhere approaching 900 hours per year across 50 to 70 planes(not sure of figure) needing 2 pilots in the cockpit.

What exactly is your agenda here?

There are only about 35 planes based in Ireland by the way. 30 of those in Dublin.

What makes you think you have all the inside info? Did you consider that the seniority request could be based on date of entry for working on Ryanair aircraft regardless of contract type?
Just because self employed contractors can't legally ballot why does that make you think they don't support the actions of the rest of their colleagues?

rivegauche

Agenda: natural justice.

Have you got an issue with that? Your aggressive response indicates that you do.

IngazZagni

rivegauche wrote: »

Agenda: natural justice.

Have you got an issue with that? Your aggressive response indicates that you do.

Absolutely nothing aggressive about it. This is a discussion forum. We sometimes have different opinions otherwise boards wouldn't exist.

What do you mean by natural justice though? There are often different extremes at play. The actions of certain union (French atc for example) and then the other extreme could be Ryanair. Fairness should be in the middle somewhere.

Bob24

rivegauche wrote: »

That is not anywhere near the same thing as the stated aims of the RPG and the aims of the RPG was/is were/are the trojan horse which has been used to introduce the Union whose first strike action will be an attempt to steal first dibs on holidays and bases away from the Professionals with which they share the cockpits of their planes. 126 pilots wouldn't keep all the Irish based planes in the air for a quarter of the year at somewhere approaching 900 hours per year across 50 to 70 planes(not sure of figure) needing 2 pilots in the cockpit.

Rightly or wrongly, Ryanair never accepted to engage with representative groups setup by the pilots and has chosen to only recognise national unions. These are the cards pilots have been dealt with.

Again what should FTE pilots have done differently to please you?

Tenger

rivegauche wrote: »

I judge them by their actions and their action has been to seek to secure preferential holidays and terms for some at the expense of other professional pilots..........

I dont believe that the RPG can 'legally' lobby on behalf of contractors.
One of the major aims of recent FR industrial issues is the treatment of contractor pilots/cabin crew. The majority of flight crew there want ALL pilots who fly with FR to be grouped together. Thus the Spanish pilots can request Spanish bases, the Irish can ask for Ireland, the Poles Poland, etc etc

You really seem to think this is a situation where senior pilots want to shaft the new guys. Airlines around the world have a seniority list, its viewed as part of the industry and the most impartial system. It actually encourages experienced crew to stay loyal to their employer.
(Some airlines actually run a seniority list which inverts every other year for holiday selection)

Previously you stated that such a list is against an environment of meritocracy.....have you heard about the Ryanair fuel league tables? Or the cabin crew who dont meet the (only revised upwards) sales targets? This is the type of meritocracy that exists in Ryanair.

rivegauche

I am absolutely sure that empty-nest senior pilots in their 50s will be taking all the holidays they want at the times that they want while junior pilots in their 30s end up in far flung places not getting to see their children grow up or being there for them on the key days that they want to be there.

Thus was it ever so with "Seniority".

Bob24

Tenger wrote: »

I dont believe that the RPG can 'legally' lobby on behalf of contractors.

Don’t underestimate the RPG when it comes down to dealing with an airline :-)



But yeah more seriously ... it is more an informal group which can try to organise pilots to pressure the airline, but it doesn’t have anything like the recognised legal representativity a union would have and Ryanair is clearly showing no will to engage with that body.

NH2013

To add a point of clarification, as I understand it the unions are requesting a “Master Seniority List” with all pilots on it, both direct employees and contractors. This will then be used to determine what bases people are assigned and will give clarity to pilots as to when they can expect to get a base of their choice as opposed to the current system of the best mates and buddies of management getting their preferred bases and the others being sent away to Vladivostok on a whim with wives and kids either left behind or lives uprooted.

Not exactly unreasonable to have a clear transparent system, and totally cost neutral as well.

rivegauche

NH2013 wrote: »

Not exactly unreasonable to have a clear transparent system, and totally cost neutral as well.

One can't assume that a clear transparent system is not unfair in it's conception and operation and as I said before I fear Ryanair will acquiesce as the cost to them remains unchanged but for younger pilots outside the circle it will be a case of like it or lump it. It can and will be constructed to be transparently unfair.

plodder

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Legally, the contractors cannot participate in ballots for strike action (they can’t even strike). They aren’t excluding them on purpose. This business model is under threat in mainland Europe now anyway with some countries beginning to stop it, such as Germany. Ryanair can easily dismiss their ‘services’ (not them) if they strike, whereas for their own employees it’s much more challenging to dismiss them, from a legal perspective (even though I wouldn’t put it past them).

Employees have the right to strike, contractors don’t - that’s the main problem with this. You’ll find that the union’s objective isn’t to separate the pilots or get some of them a good deal whilst excluding others, but more so an attack on Ryanair and MOL.

Fair enough. As I said, I think all pilots should be employees, unless they are genuine contractors, which in this case, they clearly aren't.

Hopefully, the demands that the employee pilots are looking for can be made public, and it can be seen that it's not at the expense of their contractor colleagues. I'd be less inclined to support them, if the suggestion is true, that they are looking to be treated better than the contractors. Not that my support is worth a hill of beans, but anyway....

trellheim

Is there comparable seniority agreements the pilots want to see in any airline - would Delta's for example ? Or SIA ?

Tenger

rivegauche wrote: »

I am absolutely sure that empty-nest senior pilots in their 50s will be taking all the holidays they want at the times that they want while junior pilots in their 30s end up in far flung places not getting to see their children grow up or being there for them on the key days that they want to be there.

Thus was it ever so with "Seniority".

Well having previously worked in an airline with a seniority list it was accepted there. Yes, the very top 10% got their holiday requests. But it was weighted in that the bottom 20% got at least 40% of their perferences. And the amount of summer leave (ie. April-October) was limited to 3 weeks so its not as if the top guys went on a 3 mongh sabatical in the Algarve.
The holiday days were apportioned throughout the staff, so all ranks got a bite of the cherry.

And keep in mind that some pilots might decide to stay based abroad in a larger base to allow them more holiday options.
Some might go for command earlier even though it puts them at the bottom of the leave list.
Some might hang on to the righthand seat as long as possible to maintain base and/or lifestyle.

You have a very one sided view of seniority. I always found it to be clear. Of course when I was at the bottom I grumbled but I knew I was constantly moving up the list and could see noticeable improvements year by year.
Its better than where I am now, its a race to the mgmt office to stake your claim on a particular week.

rivegauche

Tenger wrote: »

Well having previously worked in an airline with a seniority list it was accepted there. Yes, the very top 10% got their holiday requests. But it was weighted in that the bottom 20% got at least 40% of their perferences. And the amount of summer leave (ie. April-October) was limited to 3 weeks so its not as if the top guys went on a 3 mongh sabatical in the Algarve.
The holiday days were apportioned throughout the staff, so all ranks got a bite of the cherry.

And keep in mind that some pilots might decide to stay based abroad in a larger base to allow them more holiday options.
Some might go for command earlier even though it puts them at the bottom of the leave list.
Some might hang on to the righthand seat as long as possible to maintain base and/or lifestyle.

You have a very one sided view of seniority. I always found it to be clear. Of course when I was at the bottom I grumbled but I knew I was constantly moving up the list and could see noticeable improvements year by year.
Its better than where I am now, its a race to the mgmt office to stake your claim on a particular week.

and I expect that those 126 Pilots will apportion their seniority somewhat fairly "amongst" themselves and they'll have their seniority already baked in when ever or if ever they decide to do something about the many hundreds of other Irish Ryanair Pilots who didn't have the ability to vote on this important topic which has a very real impact on their quality of life.
It is obvious that a Coterie have connived to look after themselves first and foremost and the other issues in Ryanair are of lesser importance to them even though other Pilots may be suffering from those other issues now and for the foreseeable future.

Mebuntu

Don't worry. Things will change back after the next downturn which can't be too far away.

At a time when other airlines were either going bust by the day or downsizing fleets and flights, Ryanair did the opposite thus maintaining thousands of airline jobs, not just pilots. Not only that, progress to the left-hand seat happened much quicker. Unfortunately, eaten bread is soon forgotten and now they turn around to bite the hand that fed them.

It is significant that the entire transport industry is controlled by militant unions who know that they can easily discommode the rest of the population anytime they wish to appease their greed.

It was inevitable that the arch-enemy IALPA, once they got their foot in the door, would look for any excuse to call a strike in FR. The idea that looking for "seniority lists" justifies inconveniencing thousands of ordinary people (the people who can afford to fly only with Ryanair) is obscene to say the least. It is nothing more than a hashtag Me Me operation.

rivegauche

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Cabin crew have just published their charter of demands following the summit with FORSA in Dublin today. Some very doable things that most airlines offer already. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0704/976236-ryanair/

Cabin crew can't afford to strike. They are on near subsistence wages. When they lose holidays and paid work due to striking pilots for such a selfish reason the Cabin Crew can afford to strike even less.

billy few mates

rivegauche wrote: »

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Cabin crew have just published their charter of demands following the summit with FORSA in Dublin today. Some very doable things that most airlines offer already. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0704/976236-ryanair/

Cabin crew can't afford to strike. They are on near subsistence wages. When they lose holidays and paid work due to striking pilots for such a selfish reason the Cabin Crew can afford to strike even less.

So you think the pilots shouldn't be allowed to stand up for themselves because the cabin crew are only on "subsistence wages"...?

john boye

rivegauche wrote: »

Cabin crew can't afford to strike. They are on near subsistence wages. When they lose holidays and paid work due to striking pilots for such a selfish reason the Cabin Crew can afford to strike even less.

Don't you think they should be on slightly better wages then?

billy few mates

Good luck to them I say, everybody is entitled to make a stand and fight for what they believe they're worth. In this industry you really only get two opportunities to do this, peak summer or Christmas holidays. The last time they tried this was at Christmas and although the strike was averted on that occasion I always felt there was still some unfinished business, and now it's come back around again.
I also believe seniority lists are nothing to be feared, properly run they can work to the benefit of everyone. It encourages and promotes loyalty (something Ryanair could probably do with), every one starts at the bottom but everyone eventually makes it to the top. They're probably more transparent than any alternative system, you're given a number the day you come in, every one that comes in after you has a higher number so you can see at a glance that everything is above board. Many many airlines already use this system and it doesn't cost the company a penny to administer, and saves a hell of a lot of arguments when it comes to rationing the benefits that come with the system. I also don't buy the fear of the top tier hogging all the leave, they still only have the same amount of leave and I can't see how the annual leave of the most senior captain would interfere with the annual leave of the most junior first officer. Even if it did, so what? Why shouldn't the longest serving reap the benefits of their loyalty?

Hellrazer

Mebuntu wrote: »

.

It is significant that the entire transport industry is controlled by militant unions who know that they can easily discommode the rest of the population anytime they wish to appease their greed.

It was inevitable that the arch-enemy IALPA, once they got their foot in the door, would look for any excuse to call a strike in FR. The idea that looking for "seniority lists" justifies inconveniencing thousands of ordinary people (the people who can afford to fly only with Ryanair) is obscene to say the least. It is nothing more than a hashtag Me Me operation.

No one group of employees should be allowed to hold a country to ransom. Actually never mind a country--the whole continent could be brought to a standstill if this escalates.

I am a huge trade union supporter but this union is holding a gun to the heads of innocent families that are about to take their hard earned annual holidays that they have probably been saving for months to pay for.

Everyone knew this was coming once the unions got the foot in the door and its only going to get worse if Ryanair capitulate to their demands now. The letter to Forsa is on the Ryanair website and it really makes Forsa look like the bad guys when you read it.