Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

rivegauche

yes. I can see captains forcibly retired elsewhere or looking to slow down go full or part time with LCCs and not just Ryanair. It is already happening.
I can see Ryanair out-bidding those competing airlines for qualified pilots and I can see pilots fleeing to the safety of a large LCC airline when the downturn comes.
If strategy changes from pre-dominantly taking unqualified crew and training them up to taking qualified pilots where is the need for a surfeit of militant line training captains in-house.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

yes. I can see captains forcibly retired elsewhere or looking to slow down go full or part time with LCCs and not just Ryanair. It is already happening.
I can see Ryanair out-bidding those competing airlines for qualified pilots and I can see pilots fleeing to the safety of a large LCC airline when the downturn comes.
If strategy changes from pre-dominantly taking unqualified crew and training them up to taking qualified pilots where is the need for a surfeit of militant line training captains in-house.

You don't understand the recruitment market for pilots now, or the past half a decade or expected future decades very well.

Qualified captains won't take the contracts on offer - that's why they have them full-time now, and will continue to have to do so.

Tenger

rivegauche wrote: »

yes. I can see captains forcibly retired elsewhere or looking to slow down go full or part time with LCCs and not just Ryanair. It is already happening.
...............

At this point I’m going to butt in. I’ve been deliberately staying away from posting recently on this. Anyone is free to express their views on this matter but please ensure to stand over your posts.
“A mate heard from a captain in the pub” is not really solid facts.
Similarly if you state that something is occurring, please provide an example, or post a link in to a media article.
This applies to all posters. Posting your opinion on the future aviation industry should be presented as that, not presented as fact.

rivegauche

Be my guest; pprune.org which you will either dismiss as the collective work of fantasists or merely anecdotal depending upon your disposition.

rivegauche

I'm stepping out of the conversation at this stage as I appear to have ruffled the feathers of the flying community here.
My contributions have served their purposes in that I've highlighted the dis-service these selfish Union members have done to their peers and explained how Ryanair rather than capitulating will most likely respond in the near to mid term to address their Labour issues.

L1011

rivegauche wrote: »

Be my guest; pprune.org which you will either dismiss as the collective work of fantasists or merely anecdotal depending upon your disposition.

The only website I know which has to carry a warning that many of the posters are fantasists.

It is not a reliable source, if anything it is less reliable than mutters at the bar in the Coachmans.

Brendan Bendar

Steady up folks, let’s try to take the macho heat out of this.

Not doing anyone any good, in my opinion.

Bob24

Wouldn't expect much of that meeting though.

Most likely, the pilots will reiterate their requests, Ryanair will make some vague promises but no firm commitment, and the strike will go ahead because the pilots don't trust their employer and won't settled for anything than a binding commitment which the company is not ready to make as it doesn’t think the requests are acceptable.

I think this is pretty much the collision course both parties are on to at the moment, and it will probably take more than one 11th hour meeting to fix the situation.

trellheim

When vital industries like this airline are concerned it is the governments duty to push them hard to the table and ensure some type of deal is reached. I dont much care what that looks like but it is important to get people into the room.

The 'neutral venue' is DAA in T1 ; hardly neutral. The letter from Ryanair also points out that from then on they expect to meet at Airside.


Its also not a secret - see Ryanair twitter https://twitter.com/Ryanair/status/1016354422371307520

billy few mates

trellheim wrote: »

When vital industries like this airline are concerned it is the governments duty to push them hard to the table and ensure some type of deal is reached. I dont much care what that looks like but it is important to get people into the room.

The 'neutral venue' is DAA in T1 ; hardly neutral. The letter from Ryanair also points out that from then on they expect to meet at Airside.


Its also not a secret - see Ryanair twitter https://twitter.com/Ryanair/status/1016354422371307520

"Something, something...Aer Lingus pilot.... something, something... unnecessary strike...27% support....something, something....Aer Lingus pilots... something, something..."

They really can't help themselves can they...?

trellheim

It does not appear to the typical Management and Union sides going into a meeting focused on getting a deal, thats for sure. Summer of strikes if this is the level of rhetoric.

Stevek101

These strikes have never really materialised into anything other than minor disruption. There is a real chance of job losses unlike other disputes.

rivegauche

john boye wrote: »

Pretty good time for him to leave with news of Ryanair offering to meet the pilots after all his assurances that they absolutely wouldn't. That would have been awkward.

Can you please quote back to me by using the number on the right hand side of the post exactly where I said that Ryanair would not meet Pilots.
I said they wouldn't roll over. I took it as a very real possibility that some sort of arrangement would be arrived at before Strike Action was unavoidable that a proper neutral location would be arranged rather than the purportedly neutral one dictated by the Aer Lingus Union Activists.
I suppose you thought it was safe to engage in revisionism when I said I was leaving the discussion and I'm still dropping out as the pro-Industrial Action mob are absolutely raving here and the Moderators are not bothering to reign them in. I've been exposed to absolutely disgraceful abuse here but it comes as no surprise.
Just keep fooling yourselves into believing that the Unions actually hold the initiative here.

View Profile

Stevek101 wrote:

These strikes have never really materialised into anything other than minor disruption. There is a real chance of job losses unlike other disputes.

Just one job loss looming, O'Learys!

The Veteran

Nobody mentioning it on here yet but Forsa represent more than just pilots at Dublin Airport; if there are pickets it will be interesting to see what other services might be impacted.

Irish Steve

rivegauche wrote: »

I'm still dropping out as the pro-Industrial Action mob are absolutely raving here and the Moderators are not bothering to reign them in. I've been exposed to absolutely disgraceful abuse here but it comes as no surprise.

If you are not happy with the moderation, then raise a formal complaint with the category moderators or administrators as outlined in the charter.


If you complain about moderation in thread again, you will be sanctioned in accordance with the terms of the forum charter.

Now you know why I made the deliberate decision a number of days ago to split the industrial relations aspect of this dispute into a separate thread from the discussions about the effects of this dispute on intending passengers.


If you think the abuse you have received is disgraceful, you're clearly new to Boards.ie and the aviation forum. Compared to some web sites, what's been said here so far is mild, although you may not agree, that's mainly because we do have moderation of content on this site. There have been, and will be, much stronger comments made by both sides of this argument before it is resolved, and I can assure you, the moderators get a substantial number of posts, some abusive, from both sides of most arguments that run for any length of time.



One of the reasons why I have not commented on this thread earlier is because I have very strong (negative) feelings about both sides of this conflict, and make no mistake, this IS a very long standing and unresolved conflict that has been simmering in the background for many years, and to make it worse, there is a third side, the elephant in the room, which is the Irish Government's attitude and future stance on the "self employed" contractors who are working full time for Ryanair, without the benefits that they should have as full time employees, and they have no real choice about when they work, or the hours they work, or on many other aspects of their "employment" that should be under their control if they were truly contracting. In addition, they cannot work for another employer, as their entire available annual flying hours allowance is fully used by the only company they are allowed to work for.



The EU are looking at the whole aspect of the legal loopholes that have been used to facilitate the operation of these employment schemes by a number of employers in a number of industries, and the brutal reality is that whatever about the legality of these schemes, the moral reality of these systems is that they are not an acceptable way of operating and they are also facilitating the avoidance of significant tax and welfare payments to the state.


I have severe problems with the management attitude towards their pilots by demeaning them as "glorified bus drivers". It is very much to the pilots credit that despite operating very high pressure schedules, there have been no serious accidents in the history of Ryanair, and retaining that record takes some serious commitment from all involved, and to demean their professionalism and skills in the way that has been done on a number of occasions is a very cheap jibe indeed, and one that has and continues to cause justifiable anger from the people on the receiving end. I know exactly how much work has to be put in to get on to the first rung of the aviation ladder, it takes a huge commitment of time and money to get to that point, and that is only the start of what at times can be a very insecure job, assuming that you do actually get to being on the ladder doing a flying job that does actually earn an income.



As for the Unions, I was in an aviation union, and my personal experience of their "supposed" support for their members defies description, it's probably just as well that I have now retired, and have no requirement to even consider being a union member, if I was working in a role that had an option for union membership, my response to their request would be very short, and very hostile, as in a number of years working at the airport, I saw nothing that would encourage me that being a member of a union would be to my advantage,in reality, the opposite was the case, and on more than a few occasions, it was very clear that the way in which the full time leaders of the union operation were working was not in the interest of the workers they supposedly represented, but very much in favour of retaining their stranglehold over so many aspects of the way that the airport operated.



So, for all sorts of reasons, I am very much in a minority here, I don't like the Ryanair management style or position, and at the same time, I have no time or respect for the attitude and manner in which the unions are operating. I don't see that changing any time soon.



Now, to the present situation.For their own reasons, the unions have decided that now is the time to start trying to bring about fundamental changes in the structure and manner of flight crew employment. I can understand why they are seeking to do it, the employment situation for flight crew at the moment means that there is not a glut of 737-800 pilots available at short notice to step into the holes that would be caused by the termination of some existing employments, and it would be very hard to bring enough new hires on line quickly enough to avoid major problems in operating the schedules that are in place.


The management have known this was coming for a long time, and it has been noticeable that their public utterances in some areas have been less strident than in previous years, hopefully because they are aware that they are under the microscope of both the unions, and the EU tax authorities, and there have been several hints from Irish Ministers that their stance on "self employment" schemes was being looked at in fine detail.



In a perfect world, the Ryanair management would change their stance, and the unions would change their management style, but I am sufficiently long in the tooth to know that the chances of either of these events happening any time soon are very slim, as the stakes for both sides are very high, and right now, neither side can afford to be seen as having given ground to the other, even over non consequential things like the venue of the meeting.



Hopefully, before too much damage is done to reputations and balance sheets, both sides will see the sense in spending time to arrive at an agreeable solution that is acceptable to both sides. I am under no illusions, it's not going to be easy, or quick, and entrenched attitudes on both sides are not going to make it any easier.


Hopefully, both sides will find a way to avoid disrupting too many holidays of people that really don't deserve to be in the middle of a dispute of this nature.

Coil Kilcrea

rivegauche wrote: »

I've been exposed to absolutely disgraceful abuse here but it comes as no surprise.

Nonsense.

Others have different points of view and that’s what makes for good conversation.

john boye

You should have said that "won't roll over" came with such conditions. Seems to have a multitude of meanings.

Anyway this is pretty futile now that you obviously won't be replying.

Danielvarian1

I wonder is there any way these talks are successful and the strike is cancelled. Seems like the union are still determined on making their point.

trellheim

I wonder is there any way these talks are successful and the strike is cancelled. Seems like the union are still determined on making their point.

It takes both sides. As a very frequent observer/contributor to the LUAS strike thread a couple of years ago it is evident (unless I am missing something) that this will not go away given the lack of any movement whatsoever really. Both sides look like it will be marching into a room, state positions and walk back out again.

Danielvarian1

trellheim wrote: »

It takes both sides. As a very frequent observer/contributor to the LUAS strike thread a couple of years ago it is evident (unless I am missing something) that this will not go away given the lack of any movement whatsoever really. Both sides look like it will be marching into a room, state positions and walk back out again.

Hopefully not, may I ask a question, could ryanair pilots decide to strike again straight away? Or does another ballot have to be done or do they have to wait a certain length of time to strike again?

Bob24

Danielvarian1 wrote: »

I wonder is there any way these talks are successful and the strike is cancelled. Seems like the union are still determined on making their point.

I think besides the union a deeper issue is the long history of this dispute. I don't see pilots settling got anything else than a clear and binding commitment to implement changes, and I doubt Ryanair is willing (or even in a position) do do that before the strike.

Irish Steve

The underlying issue is that at the moment, Ryanair might want to settle this, but their hands are tied, as it's been made clear to them by at least one Minister that their current "self employed" model which is at the core of the Union arguments is unacceptable going forward, but the needed legal framework changes to clarify what is or is not acceptable in the future is not yet in place, and is not likely to be in place for some time to come.

For Ryanair to implement full employment contracts for all the staff that are at present on "self employed" contracts will be financially very expensive, and will also have long term implications for the cost base, as well as for overall profits, among other issues.

That then completely ignores the implications for the company of what may or may not happen with their relationship with the Unions if they no longer have a large "external" work force, if everyone is an employee, that will be a significant game changer for the future of the relationship with the Unions, which is an issue that Ryanair will want to try and control, given the track record of Unions in other airlines, especially in Ireland.

CoisFharraige

Irish Steve wrote: »

The underlying issue is that at the moment, Ryanair might want to settle this, but their hands are tied, as it's been made clear to them by at least one Minister that their current "self employed" model which is at the core of the Union arguments is unacceptable going forward, but the needed legal framework changes to clarify what is or is not acceptable in the future is not yet in place, and is not likely to be in place for some time to come.

For Ryanair to implement full employment contracts for all the staff that are at present on "self employed" contracts will be financially very expensive, and will also have long term implications for the cost base, as well as for overall profits, among other issues.

That then completely ignores the implications for the company of what may or may not happen with their relationship with the Unions if they no longer have a large "external" work force, if everyone is an employee, that will be a significant game changer for the future of the relationship with the Unions, which is an issue that Ryanair will want to try and control, given the track record of Unions in other airlines, especially in Ireland.

Yes, it’ll be very interesting to see what happens when/if the unions get a strong foot in the door with the company. I’d be very intrigued to see if MOL will see that as a sign of the times and decide to pack up and leave. He’s done all he can at that stage and can’t really beat the unions if they have a lot more strikes going forward.

This is all definitely a game-changer in the aviation industry and without sounding over-dramatic it’ll really shift the industry in Europe in a new direction.

CoisFharraige

Making a new post as this is quite a big development: Ryanair offers to meet at a neutral venue (Dublin Airport) on either Tuesday or Wednesday as a ‘gesture of good faith’

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-44770515

garhjw

Sad to see the trade unions wrecking a great company but this was always going to happen once they got their claws in.

Wanderer78

garhjw wrote:

Sad to see the trade unions wrecking a great company but this was always going to happen once they got their claws in.

So workers shouldn't have the right for better pay and conditions, would it not be a good idea to share the success of this company with those that made it successful, i.e. the staff?

castie

Saw a post a while back saying Ryanair wouldn't need to pay compensation.

The regulator ruled a while ago that planned strikes would likely not be considered extraordinary events outside of their control.
Other airlines have had to pay out on it since then.

The Veteran

Are the “self employed” staff not all employees of various agencies; this they are employees but just not of Ryanair. The staff who have Dublin Airport access badges wear “contractor” badges but that is no different to our IT guys; our cleaners; various builders; etc.

Irish Steve

The Veteran wrote: »

Are the “self employed” staff not all employees of various agencies; this they are employees but just not of Ryanair. The staff who have Dublin Airport access badges wear “contractor” badges but that is no different to our IT guys; our cleaners; various builders; etc.

The issue, among others, is that they are not as such employees of any company, there is some complex scheme that is used to put them into a "self employed" category, so they become responsible for their own tax affairs, and do not receive holiday pay for statutory holidays etc, and are also unable to get a wide range of state benefits. In addition, the employer does not pay any employers PRSI (etc) for the people who are not classified as "employed" by the company.


Revenue have some quite clear definitions of what is and is not deemed self employment, but there are legal loopholes that have been exploited by Ryanair (and other companies, especially constructions developers) and the result is a very grey area that is currently being explored very closely by a number of agencies with a view to redefining the rules.


Effectively (and I was legitimately self employed for a number of years), to meet the test of self employment, the person involved has to be able to make the decision about who they work for and for how many hours, and at what times, (among other things), so a pilot working a roster that is defined a considerable period of time ahead of it being worked, and flying the legal maximum number of hours that are allowed under the controlling legislation is not really self employed, in that they cannot decide they are not working on a particular day, and working for more than one client is not possible, as they don't have the availability of hours to legally fly as pilot for another client. If they are working more than a defined number of hours per week for one employer, then the test of "self employment" fails, and they are deemed to be an employee of the company, and therefore entitled to the relevant benefits that are part of being an employee.



I have probably over simplified this in some areas, but that's the underlying issue for many of the people who are at present flying for Ryanair, and it has been made clear that the Revenue and Social Welfare departments are reviewing the rules with a view to bringing in changes that will redefine the rules to protect the the people caught in this trap.