Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

gunny123 · 31-07-2017 10:32pm

How do you mean "actual archers" Sparks ? Strikes me he is an actual archer after seeing what he could do in that video.

Sparks · 01-08-2017 11:27am

I mean people who do actual archery, both competitive and for historical/archeological research purposes (eg. figuring out how the mongols made their bows, that kind of thing). They've pointed out that he's using a very light bow compared to normal hunting bows or warbows, that some of the arrows he's using are basically designed to let you do the tricks he's doing with them (the ones he shoots or catches), and that basic physics means you can't do some of those things in the context that he says you can (if you were fast enough to catch an ordinary arrow shot from an ordinary hunting bow for example, it's speed and kinetic energy is sufficient to strip the skin off your hands and it wouldn't stop).

I mean, come on, if it takes you 14 attempts to get something to work on film using a weak bow and trick arrows, it's not really valid to claim the technique works in the general case.

tac foley · 01-08-2017 11:38am

Back in the day, I used to shoot a modern replication of a 17thC Turkish Jannisary short recurve bow as a demonstration. It had actually been made in the late '50's for instructional purposes, and I collected it from the maker in the early '70's when I was living in Ankara for a short while on my Turkish language course.

Although I was a well-versed archer, and shot in both longbow and modern recurve sports, this bow nigh-on crippled me just in the stringing, and shooting it with the correct thumb-ring style was a difficult thing to manage at best from standing, let alone sitting on a galloping horse while other folks shot THEIR arrows at you.

When tillered to ensure that I, with my 'standard' 28" draw-length length could shoot it safely, it measured just a tad over 116 pounds

Watching this gentleman rapid-shooting a bow that may have a draw-weight at around 20# or so, as noted in the link quoted above is still clever, but that's all it is.

The other point made in the link is that 'British archers in warfare often pulled as much as 100#. This is patently untrue, since many of the warbows found on the Mary Rose would have had draw weights exceeding 140# and modern longbow shooters regularly shoot in warbows of that kind of draw-weight.

The bow that I shot for a demo that never actually went on TV put a contemporary bodkin-style arrow through both sides of a set of modern chain mail at twenty or so yards, sticking almost a foot out of the back.

tac

tac foley · 01-08-2017 11:53am

gunny123 wrote: »

war-monger in chief, blair.

Sir, these are among the truest words you have ever written here.

tac

gunny123 · 01-08-2017 1:13pm

The thing is sparks, the archers of old were so physically developed, they were actually deformed. They had by order of the king, to practise daily with the bow. As tac says the old bows had massive draw weights.

The fact the chappie in the video is using a light bow is down to his lack of strength not skill.

Sparks · 01-08-2017 2:17pm

Doesn't matter if he's strong or not gunny, the whole "catching arrows" thing has been tested before; if you don't use lightweight arrows and light poundage bows, the thing not only doesn't work, it can't work because of physics. And that's not counting the need for a lot of coordination between archer and catcher.

As to the other tricks... yeah, I don't buy that they're anything more than tricks. Sure, funny to look at and very fast, but... not solid. Being able to get arrows out of the bow fast and being able to hit the target with the arrows fast, those are not the same thing. And that's not a very contrarian viewpoint from what I can tell. For example: http://www.theinfinitecurve.com/archery/bad-archery-pt-251/

Grizzly 45 · 01-08-2017 3:08pm

No author, but it seems someone somewhere pissed on someone's Mc Happy meal.
Any idea what this is about?seems to be a very long and tiresome way of making a few quid.

ezra_ · 01-08-2017 3:13pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

No author, but it seems someone somewhere pissed on someone's Mc Happy meal.
Any idea what this is about?seems to be a very long and tiresome way of making a few quid.

That's just crazy.

I didn't know Ireland had such a roaring trade in high end African game guns!

tac foley · 01-08-2017 3:22pm

ezra_ wrote: »

That's just crazy.

I didn't know Ireland had such a roaring trade in high end African game guns!

With a pair of Holland & Holland or Churchill or even Wm Evans super-grade shotguns costing up to £1/4M it seems to me to be an easy way...

tac

Sparks · 01-08-2017 4:41pm

No idea what they're motivated by, but that article is fundamentally wrong because it's mixing up being licenced to possess something and actually being the owner of that thing. Those are wholly separate things in Irish firearms legislation. Which is why you can have multiple people with licences for the same firearm, and is a fundamental part of the training licence.

And I'm reasonably sure it's not Garda policy to issue licences for firearms before the owner imports them, but a legal necessity because without the licence, an ordinary non-RFD person cannot import a firearm legally unless they physically go and fetch it in person.

gunny123 · 01-08-2017 7:06pm

ezra_ wrote: »

That's just crazy.

I didn't know Ireland had such a roaring trade in high end African game guns!

Yes there are people with some very lovely high end guns in Ireland and although i have not the deep pockets to splurge on one (or a pair), i have been luckey enough to handle and inspect some. The last was a nice mauser actioned Holland and Holland in .375 H&H.

Also people do buy these guns as an investment.

Grizzly 45 · 02-08-2017 11:14am

Unless this is a very high-end product, I can't see that much benefit in this whole process.Setting up shell companies might be easy in the Irl/Uk zone.It's not on the continent and they are audited regularly, if not more so, for this very reason of tax avoidance or criminal misuse.

I think the grist of this is in the last paragraph regarding ammo sales which would be more lucrative, but again this makes no sense, as ammo being classified as an "explosive" here and as dangerous goods by shipping companies and airlines are harder to shift about than a firearm.Plus ASFIK all "explosive" shipments must have a unique tracking number in the EU these days issued by the seller. Whether this applies to ammo I don't know, but again this whole thing seems to be at odds with the situation on the ground.
If it is so, I wish they would go to Germany and start bulk buying surplus NATO 7.62 and 9mm en masse. 230/250 euros for 1000 rounds.Selling that lot at even 400 euros would be cheap over here.

cavan shooter · 02-08-2017 8:59pm

Sparks wrote: »

No idea what they're motivated by, but that article is fundamentally wrong because it's mixing up being licenced to possess something and actually being the owner of that thing. Those are wholly separate things in Irish firearms legislation. Which is why you can have multiple people with licences for the same firearm, and is a fundamental part of the training licence.

And I'm reasonably sure it's not Garda policy to issue licences for firearms before the owner imports them, but a legal necessity because without the licence, an ordinary non-RFD person cannot import a firearm legally unless they physically go and fetch it in person.

That article is very badly written and it makes lots of dodgy statements towards the end it seems to stop in mid stream.

gunny123 · 03-08-2017 8:57pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhGCRIQnCA

Grizzly 45 · 04-08-2017 12:10pm

Was wondering when Mr. Luty[RIP] was going to make it here. Slight mistake on Ian's video, he was ratted out by the photographer of the book who was anti gun, otherwise, Plod would never have known about it.

gunny123 · 08-08-2017 8:15am

Begosh and begorrah

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/fairy-curse-blame-bad-road-10947830

Grizzly 45 · 08-08-2017 10:34am

He is away with the fairies himself.

yubabill1 · 08-08-2017 11:44am

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/senior-garda-to-get-lessons-in-upholding-the-law-and-behaving-honestly-36010034.html

1000 senior Gardai to take course on doing their job in an honest manner.
Window dressing. What's to say some senior Gardai won't continue to interpret the Firearms Act incorrectly to suit their own agenda after doing this course?

And there's another article today in the Indo saying that the EU has been called in to investigate financial irregularities in Templemore, with the Garda who reported them asking for quick action as he is in fear of retribution from elements within his own organisation. People like this whistleblower need supporting.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/eu-antifraud-agency-launches-full-inquiry-into-garda-college-slush-fund-36010039.html

Cass · 09-08-2017 12:31am

yubabill1 wrote: »

1000 senior Gardai to take course on doing their job in an honest manner.

Only in Ireland could the national police force seek someone to tell them that these, among other things, are wrong:

yubabill1 · 09-08-2017 6:04am

There are about 200,000 or more licensed firearms holders in this country and we're the largest (law-abiding) section of the population that has regular interaction with AGS through mandatory licensing.

It goes without saying that we all know that these scandals only involve a section of the force and that there are many Gardai who are horrified by all this.

AGS would be a much better force if (1) they left the Troubles mentality behind (when they were given a free hand to do as they wished) and (2) a separate security organisation - MI5-style- is spun out from AGS.

Cass · 09-08-2017 7:25am

yubabill1 wrote: »

It goes without saying that we all know that these scandals only involve a section of the force and that there are many Gardai who are horrified by all this.

They are going to train 1,000 senior Gardaí which i'm guessing will be filtered down to the lower ranks and regular members of AGS by those 1,000.

The simple fact that they have to train these senior Gardaí to act honestly is of itself, a joke. It implies that they did not know how or simply didn't act that way up until now. That suggests a severe lack of basic morality and a void of ethics.

You say the scandals i listed only apply to a small section of AGS. Well they're applicable to the senior levels of AGS, the very section that is being trained. Worse still nearly all those listed are in the last two years alone, are not everything that has happened and were anyone in any other profession to act in such a manner they would find themselves out of a job and possibly in prison.

What do we get? A refusal to step down and politicians that continue to support such people.

ezra_ · 09-08-2017 9:24am

Cass wrote: »

They are going to train 1,000 senior Gardaí which i'm guessing will be filtered down to the lower ranks and regular members of AGS by those 1,000.

The simple fact that they have to train these senior Gardaí to act honestly is of itself, a joke. It implies that they did not know how or simply didn't act that way up until now. That suggests a severe lack of basic morality and a void of ethics.

You say the scandals i listed only apply to a small section of AGS. Well they're applicable to the senior levels of AGS, the very section that is being trained. Worse still nearly all those listed are in the last two years alone, are not everything that has happened and were anyone in any other profession to act in such a manner they would find themselves out of a job and possibly in prison.

What do we get? A refusal to step down and politicians that continue to support such people.

This could be more along the lines of being able to action procedures against Gardai who engage in such actions in the future.

By making a bunch of them do a course (and ideally not rank and file, on the beat gardai) there is less of a defence "ah shur, don't we all do that like".

Cass · 09-08-2017 9:39am

A training course won't legislate for that.

The law either exists or it doesn't. They've either broken it or they haven't. If it exists and they broke it then they should be charged and prosecuted. If the law doesn't exist then legislation is needed and not a training course as it will not suffice as it still is not legislation and so they [wrong doers] can continue to do as they please with nothing more severe than a slap on the wrist if caught.

Besides the prosecution of such actions the training course, as i said above, is a scathing indictment of the current views and morals of senior AGS if they need to be trained on what not to do, how to be honest, and to improve integrity while performing their duties.

I want to stress i'm not making assumptions of current senior AGS members as i don't know them, but this training course alludes to these issues as being a problem which raises the points i mentioned above.

Nekarsulm · 09-08-2017 10:08am

It would be interesting to know who/what organisation would be providing this "Training" course.
If it an "in house" effort, then it is only window dressing.

If it is to be provided by some outside, or outside the State, organisation, then I would imagine it would take years for all the terms to be agreed and the 1000 places to be completed.

As with the pensions situation, you could have members picked to attend retiring before their attendance was required

And which member of the Gardaí would like to have it known that he/she were selected for "re training"?

Grizzly 45 · 09-08-2017 2:43pm

The simple thing to do now is simply disbanded the Garda Siochanna as a force and start again, as was recommended years ago by the Patten report. If the RUC could be disbanded and re-established as the PSNI in Northern Ireland the same can be done with AGS. This force has been too involved in the politics of this state since its foundation.All appointments above inspector are political and not merit based, there is no accountability and even the Garda Inspectorate has stated it gets little to no cooperation in investigations and is bypassed.
On the ground level, its morale is gone lower than its boots, and it seems it can be used by certain politicians as its own private security enforcement when the need arises.[Ref the US blogger who was accosted STASI like at Dublin airport, and told not to write any more articles about a certain minister].Not to mind we can see under FOIA what sort of files are kept on us "subversives" [gun owners]by AGS and DOJ under the C4 dept.
However, it will never be done no doubt, because of the literal grave yards of skeletons that would fall out of closets in the Park and in ministerial offices, and no doubt the "few bad apples" line will be trotted out again on its well-worn path.Maybe one day when we elect someone who cares more about their country than their pockets....

gunny123 · 09-08-2017 4:15pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The simple thing to do now is simply disbanded the Garda Siochanna as a force and start again, as was recommended years ago by the Patten report. If the RUC could be disbanded and re-established as the PSNI in Northern Ireland the same can be done with AGS. This force has been too involved in the politics of this state since its foundation.All appointments above inspector are political and not merit based, there is no accountability and even the Garda Inspectorate has stated it gets little to no cooperation in investigations and is bypassed.
On the ground level, its morale is gone lower than its boots, and it seems it can be used by certain politicians as its own private security enforcement when the need arises.[Ref the US blogger who was accosted STASI like at Dublin airport, and told not to write any more articles about a certain minister].Not to mind we can see under FOIA what sort of files are kept on us "subversives" [gun owners]by AGS and DOJ under the C4 dept.
However, it will never be done no doubt, because of the literal grave yards of skeletons that would fall out of closets in the Park and in ministerial offices, and no doubt the "few bad apples" line will be trotted out again on its well-worn path.Maybe one day when we elect someone who cares more about their country than their pockets....

The political will is not there to do that Grizz, and an awful lot of ordinary people don't want to hear anything bad about the Guards.

But it is possible, look at the Met in London during the 60's and 70's, being cheek by jowel with the serious criminal gangs that emerged during those decades. The famous flying squad and Drury and the "Dirty squad" being prime examples. Impossible to tackle you would assume, but no it was done and the force straightened out.

The same with the NYPD and other American police forces, being involved in all sorts of criminality and being involved with the mob, again tackled and straightened out.

Grizzly 45 · 09-08-2017 11:28pm

gunny123 wrote: »

The political will is not there to do that Grizz, and an awful lot of ordinary people don't want to hear anything bad about the Guards.

Unfortunately true, but then again people here didn't want to hear anything bad about the Catholic church and politicians either.As they "knew better than us!" It takes around 40 years for things to slowly change in Ireland, but they change.

The same with the NYPD and other American police forces, being involved in all sorts of criminality and being involved with the mob, again tackled and straightened out.

Indeed and you could put Garda Mc Cabe in the role of an Irish version of officer Serpico of the NYPD in the 1960s.What he had to go thru almost mirrors Garda Mc Cabes ordeals at the hands of his own corrupt colleagues and superiors.

gunny123 · 10-08-2017 5:19pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Unfortunately true, but then again people here didn't want to hear anything bad about the Catholic church and politicians either.As they "knew better than us!" It takes around 40 years for things to slowly change in Ireland, but they change.

Its more that nothing happens when someone is pinched, How many times have you seen someone like Haughey/Lowrey caught red handed and nothing happens, in fact they might be allowed retire and wind up making more money from a bloated pension, while also sitting on boards a few days a month and getting handsome fees ?

Grizzly 45 · 11-08-2017 11:47am

True, Ireland badly needs a few "Madoff moments".IE we see some rich corrupt SOB being handcuffed and frog marched off to a squad car in full media view from his luxury office suite or mansion and being driven off at top speed to the local Garda station or court to be charged.
Until that happens we will always suffer from this "Them and us" attitude and rules in Irish society.
Unfortunately, there is something in our national psyche that seems to venerate the crook that screws us the most as a hero.The aforementioned crook from Drumcondra, obviously not content with his trousered millions is trying to get back into politics and has his beady eye and rat claws set on the Aras, and no doubt he will get it as well.:(

gunny123 · 11-08-2017 2:55pm

The father used to say "When we got rid of John Bull from Ireland, Paddy Bull took over". Its a fact though, where the british left off, the irish took over and continued. A sense of entitlement and of being " a cut above" the rest of the population, justifying their massive salaries and perks. Just take a look at RTE. I'd be the happiest guy in Ireland if that kip was shut down.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Comments

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County