ESB eCars

24-12-2019 4:25am

unkel wrote: »

And on the fast charger in Blanch it would have taken just 15 minutes

More than 15 mins to get back to Carlow , probably 20-25 mins with the Gen I Leaf at the time, that's 25 mins more I have to hang around doing nothing when all I had to do was plug in at the AC point and it's done when I get back or almost, plenty to get home.

That's just 1 of many examples.

liamog · 24-12-2019 4:37am

ted1 wrote: »

Most are related to ICE, a faster charger saves you approximately 33% of time and makes the car more useable and stressless

All well and good on low range cars, but is an extra 20km/h of charging speed really going to make a difference when the car's range is 400km? I imagine it's a rare trip where the difference between 440 km and 460 km of range is the sweet spot.

24-12-2019 4:43am

liamog wrote: »

All well and good on low range cars, but is an extra 20km/h of charging speed really going to make a difference when the car's range is 400km? I imagine it's a rare trip where the difference between 440 km and 460 km of range is the sweet spot.

It sure is beneficial, if you can get 2 hrs @11 Kw you could replace roughly 22 Kwh that's 100-120 Kms range and could be all someone needs to get home + that would be less time spent hanging around at a fast charger. The longer your stay the more charge you get.

Now if 22 Kw DC chargers could be installed instead of the AC then I'd be all for it but they would have to have ChaDeMO and CCS +Zoe couldn't use them and they would be a lot more expensive and probably less reliable, more maintenance etc.

liamog · 24-12-2019 4:54am

Deleted User wrote: »

It sure is beneficial, if you can get 2 hrs @11 Kw you could replace roughly 22 Kwh that's 100-120 Kms range and could be all someone needs to get home + that would be less time spent hanging around at a fast charger. The longer your stay the more charge you get.

The difference between a 7.4kW charger, and an 11kW charger over 2 hours on a Kona 64 is going to be an extra 36km, on top of your initial 400km range. Would you really pay extra for the charger in that circumstance?

Don't get me wrong, I think we'll gradually see a move to 11kW onboard chargers becoming standard, but that's more to do with the electrical supply on mainland Europe where it's expensive to fit a 32A charging socket versus a 3 phase 16A one.

24-12-2019 5:00am

liamog wrote: »

The difference between a 7.4kW charger, and an 11kW charger over 2 hours on a Kona 64 is going to be an extra 36km, on top of your initial 400km range. Would you really pay extra for the charger in that circumstance?

Don't get me wrong, I think we'll gradually see a move to 11kW onboard chargers becoming standard, but that's more to do with the electrical supply on mainland Europe where it's expensive to fit a 32A charging socket versus a 3 phase 16A one.

It doesn't matter because I may not need a full charge.

If I'm plugged in for 1 hr and get 11 Kwh that's 11 Kwh less I have to sit and wait for at a fast charger, if I'm plugged in 2 hrs then that's 22 Kwh I don't have to wait for , 3 hrs plugged in then that's 33 Kwh I don't have to wait for.

22 Kwh in 2 hrs is nothing to sniff at.

It's going to be a long time before we see 22 Kw DC chargers, it would be a lot easier if Nissan just went with CCS and then it wouldn't matter so much except for cost but I doubt we're going to see 22 Kw x 2 DC the way we will see 22 x 2 kw AC because the chargers would be a lot larger and have too many cables hanging out of them and they would be installed in places they could have their cables stolen a lot easier than where most fast chargers are now.

liamog · 24-12-2019 6:25am

Deleted User wrote: »

It doesn't matter because I may not need a full charge.

If I'm plugged in for 1 hr and get 11 Kwh that's 11 Kwh less I have to sit and wait for at a fast charger, if I'm plugged in 2 hrs then that's 22 Kwh I don't have to wait for , 3 hrs plugged in then that's 33 Kwh I don't have to wait for.

22 Kwh in 2 hrs is nothing to sniff at.

This line of discussion was more aimed at Ted1, where he was justifying spending €1,000 on an on-board charger upgrade, and that only having a 7kW OBC would be seen as slow when you sell your car.

As to the general utility of AC charging, right now most of the time I bother plugging into an AC charger is when it's got an advantageous parking position.

For our personal usage with the Ioniq, there aren't many places we go to that are far enough away and that we stay for long enough that even 11kW charging would be useful. I suppose that's the privilege that comes with living in Dublin. Most of the normal stuff you want/need to do is close by.

24-12-2019 6:35am

liamog wrote: »

This line of discussion was more aimed at Ted1, where he was justifying spending €1,000 on an on-board charger upgrade, and that only having a 7kW OBC would be seen as slow when you sell your car.

As to the general utility of AC charging, right now most of the time I bother plugging into an AC charger is when it's got an advantageous parking position.

For our personal usage with the Ioniq, there aren't many places we go to that are far enough away and that we stay for long enough that even 11kW charging would be useful. I suppose that's the privilege that comes with living in Dublin. Most of the normal stuff you want/need to do is close by.

I wouldn't call living in Dublin a privilege lol

Faster AC will be handy and more people will use it when there are more charge points + more powerful on-board chargers in cars.

ted1 · 24-12-2019 9:46am

liamog wrote: »

All well and good on low range cars, but is an extra 20km/h of charging speed really going to make a difference when the car's range is 400km? I imagine it's a rare trip where the difference between 440 km and 460 km of range is the sweet spot.

A 70kwh battery will take 10 hours to charge vs 6.3, that’s a significant difference, that’s what people will care about. Time is money.

liamog · 24-12-2019 10:24am

ted1 wrote: »

A 70kwh battery will take 10 hours to charge vs 6.3, that’s a significant difference, that’s what people will care about. Time is money.

In reality won't make a difference here, the cost of installing 3 phase at home is just way too high. And if your really concerned with charging the car quickly you'll do so on the rapid charger instead of caring about an AC upgrade. There is more value in paying for the DC charging speed upgrade such as the 50kW to 100kW on the base model ID.3

KCross · 24-12-2019 11:07am

I don’t think 11kW upgrade would be worth €1000 but I’d pay, maybe, half that.

It’s a confirmed €390 upgrade on the e208 in Ireland. That’s well worth it.

It’s worth zero in financial terms so it’s money you have to be willing to write off but it is very useful.

BigAl81 · 29-12-2019 10:57am

Not one, but two new "rapid" chargers just opened in Galway Plaza!!

One of the few sites in Ireland not to have a single point of failure finally.

They're only 50kW chargers, not 100 or 150, and there's only 2, not 4 or 6, but still nice to see some movement.

The announcement seems to have caught people by surprise. Are there any formal plans for future confirmed sites or upgrades other than the vague dots on maps of Ireland they released in the past does anyone know?

Mickeroo · 29-12-2019 11:41am

Galway to Dublin must be the best served stretch of motorway in terms of chargers in the country at this stage.

Black_Knight · 29-12-2019 12:27pm

Mickeroo wrote: »

Galway to Dublin must be the best served stretch of motorway in terms of chargers in the country at this stage.

Odd it keeps getting so much investment so. It was probably the best served route in Ireland before these 2 new chargers. It's great to see a well served route, but sad to see other routes so far being neglected.

unkel · 29-12-2019 1:55pm

BigAl81 wrote: »

Not one, but two new "rapid" chargers just opened in Galway Plaza!!

That's a brilliant location for me!

164km from my home, so could drive there at motorway speeds in Ioniq, even in winter, if I take it a bit handy. Who owns those chargers and what card / app do you need?

BigAl81 · 29-12-2019 2:41pm

unkel wrote:

Who owns those chargers and what card / app do you need?

They're ESB chargers, they show on the eCars app now if you search "Galway Plaza"!

unkel wrote:

164km from my home, so could drive there at motorway speeds in Ioniq, even in winter, if I take it a bit handy

Sightly of topic but I got 19kWh/100km on a 60km motorway stretch this week giving a range of 147kms in winter at motorway speed.

I'd suggest from painful experience you'll be cutting it extremely extremely fine attempting 164 Kms in winter even at 110kmph indicated speed in a 28kWh Ioniq.

I do a 170km trip every few weeks and had some hairy trips over the year trying to do it in one go!

Irishjg · 29-12-2019 3:05pm

+1 to that. To achieve 17kwh per 100km on the motorway in winter is aspirational at best. Your figure of 19 to 20kwh is a much more realistic number. The M3SR+ is winter motorway rated for circa 245km using 50kw of available battery so going off those numbers your pretty much spot on sir. I can’t see an Ioniq being 15 to 20% more efficient than that.

unkel · 29-12-2019 3:13pm

BigAl81 wrote: »

I'd suggest from painful experience you'll be cutting it extremely extremely fine attempting 164 Kms in winter even at 110kmph indicated speed in a 28kWh Ioniq.

I'll throw in my eJerryCan + inverter in the boot :pac:

Northumberland · 29-12-2019 4:30pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

Odd it keeps getting so much investment so. It was probably the best served route in Ireland before these 2 new chargers. It's great to see a well served route, but sad to see other routes so far being neglected.

for an example of a poorly served Motorway look at the M3 (to Navan/Kells/ and then N3 to Cavan). There are NO chargers at all on the motorway. You can try your luck in the queue at Blanchardstown Centre shopping mall before you join the M3, or take a detour of 12 km off the motorway to charge up on the single fast charger in Navan, if it is working and available. No more chargers until you get to Cavan Town where you now have the luxury of a choice of just 2 AC 22kW chargers on a busy road where it is very difficult to park, even if the spots are not iced. The other 2 AC chargers outside the courthouse in Cavabn have not operated for months, no notice on them explaining why or what the plan is.

30-12-2019 12:20am

Still installing 50 Kw chargers, that's a complete Joke, what's their excuse now ?

Irishjg · 30-12-2019 12:45am

Deleted User wrote: »

Still installing 50 Kw chargers, that's a complete Joke, what's their excuse now ?

Yes true, I believe that Ecars claimed when fees for charge points were announced they had plans to introduce 100kwh capable chargers across the network. I have yet to see anything since then with a reference to those chargers. Hopefully someone here can throw some more light on it.

liamog · 30-12-2019 1:46am

I've noticed a tendency on the FB groups for more experienced members who drive Nissan cars, to poo-poo the idea of installing >50kW chargers as an unnecessary expense.
They often claim that the majority of cars to date can't charge >50kW so there is no point installing them at all. I wonder how many of these people now have contacts in eCars are influencing decision making.

30-12-2019 1:57am

liamog wrote: »

I've noticed a tendency on the FB groups for more experienced members who drive Nissan cars, to poo-poo the idea of installing >50kW chargers as an unnecessary expense.
They often claim that the majority of cars to date can't charge >50kW so there is no point installing them at all. I wonder how many of these people now have contacts in eCars are influencing decision making.

Probably too many.

Sure , there are no 100+ capable CCS cars out there yet but they are on the way.

But, in reality, can anyone expect anything better in Ireland in fairness ?

MJohnston · 30-12-2019 2:09am

What does it take for 50kW FCP to be upgraded in future? Full replacement?

liamog · 30-12-2019 2:30am

MJohnston wrote: »

What does it take for 50kW FCP to be upgraded in future? Full replacement?

For the chargers they are currently installing, yes, it's a full new unit required.
The Ionity chargers are more modular. The charging equipment itself is in a cabinet away from the charge point. Extra modules can be added over time to increase the power output. There are a few different manufacturers making scalable chargers now.

BigAl81 · 30-12-2019 2:41am

liamog wrote: »

They often claim that the majority of cars to date can't charge >50kW so there is no point installing them at all. I wonder how many of these people now have contacts in eCars are influencing decision making.

When I hear this I think quango incompetency rather than conspiracy to be honest!

BigAl81 · 30-12-2019 2:46am

To elaborate further, I have a car, first released in Ireland in late 2016, that can charge at 70kW, and a few days before 2020, despite the compaticion literally down the road installing 150kW chargers, we get "new" 50kW ones from eCars.

Where's the vision or progress?

I think you need a certain schadenfreude to drive an EV in Ireland at the moment.

charlieIRL · 30-12-2019 11:49am

I’m currently having a cup of tea and a muffin charging in the service station in Monastevin (anything bar shopping with herself!!)

I noticed 4 EV spots marked on the ground but only one charger, marking are well worn, did they take out a second charger from here?

Seems a very busy spot

ELM327 · 30-12-2019 11:51am

Deleted User wrote: »

Probably too many.

Sure , there are no 100+ capable CCS cars out there yet but they are on the way.

But, in reality, can anyone expect anything better in Ireland in fairness ?

Plenty of cars available now charge >100kW
ETron (I parked beside one in Ionity the other day)
Tesla S/X/3 all charge well above 100kW
Ipace charges at 100kW

50kW is a mild fast charge now, takes me over 1 hour to get 20-80% on this vs less than half that on Ionity/SuC

liamog wrote: »

I've noticed a tendency on the FB groups for more experienced members who drive Nissan cars, to poo-poo the idea of installing >50kW chargers as an unnecessary expense.
They often claim that the majority of cars to date can't charge >50kW so there is no point installing them at all. I wonder how many of these people now have contacts in eCars are influencing decision making.

Yes that's ridiculous. 50kW is 2011 standard fast charging, 10 years obsolete at this point!

unkel · 30-12-2019 11:51am

BigAl81 wrote: »

When I hear this I think quango incompetency rather than conspiracy to be honest!

+1

A very bad and inefficient way to spend tax payers money is to give it to a cosy semi-state company where most of it is spent on high salaries and enormous pensions

Much better if we leave it to the private sector (Tesla, Ionity, Easy Go, etc.) to install (super) fast chargers at zero cost to the tax payer.

ELM327 · 30-12-2019 11:52am

charlieIRL wrote: »

I’m currently having a cup of tea and a muffin charging in the service station in Monastevin (anything bar shopping with herself!!)

I noticed 4 EV spots marked on the ground but only one charger, marking are well worn, did they take out a second charger from here?

Seems a very busy spot

from memory that spot used to have a Chademo only DC fast charger and 2 type 2 AC 22kW sockets.
Replaced with a triple header and remove the SCP?

charlieIRL · 30-12-2019 11:53am

ELM327 wrote: »

from memory that spot used to have a Chademo only DC fast charger and 2 type 2 AC 22kW sockets.
Replaced with a triple header and remove the SCP?

Yes it’s a triple head charger here now.

circadian · 30-12-2019 12:01pm

Why would anyone champion an older charging speed? If you're building new infrastructure then you should be installing the highest standard available to ensure some semblance of future proofing.

Initially, it might cost more than a 50kw charger but in the long run it won't since the lower powered charger will probably get pulled out much sooner to be replaced anyway.

charlieIRL · 30-12-2019 12:05pm

ELM327 wrote: »

from memory that spot used to have a Chademo only DC fast charger and 2 type 2 AC 22kW sockets.
Replaced with a triple header and remove the SCP?

Wouldn’t call it a fast charger....I’m charging at 26kW! Crikey that’s slow.

ELM327 · 30-12-2019 12:05pm

I think there is a big cost delta between 50kW and "HPC" - or >50kW - chargers.
If the choice is 2 50kW units or one 150-350kW, I think 2 slower units is better for now. At least you're getting some juice. Ecars seem to agree, as theyve installed 2 new 2*50kW locations recently.

ELM327 · 30-12-2019 12:07pm

charlieIRL wrote: »

Wouldn’t call it a fast charger....I’m charging at 26kW! Crikey that’s slow.

Is that
C5HD3 - Mayfield J14

If so, there's apparently supply issues with the site, similar to the Obama Plaza.
Rumors of Ionity and/or an ecars hub going in there in the future too so that will be interesting.

KCross · 30-12-2019 12:17pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I think there is a big cost delta between 50kW and "HPC" - or >50kW - chargers.
If the choice is 2 50kW units or one 150-350kW, I think 2 slower units is better for now. At least you're getting some juice. Ecars seem to agree, as theyve installed 2 new 2*50kW locations recently.

+1

The site might have short term supply issues too so 2x50kW makes more sense in the short term.

We’ve all complained about the single point of failure issue which is much more important than higher speed. 2020 is when the HPC’s are to start being installed and they require significant civil works, not just two standalone units. The HPCs require a substation to be built.

Silent Running · 30-12-2019 12:24pm

KCross wrote: »

+1

The site might have short term supply issues too so 2x50kW makes more sense in the short term.

We’ve all complained about the single point of failure issue which is much more important than higher speed. 2020 is when the HPC’s are to start being installed and they require significant civil works, not just two standalone units. The HPCs require a substation to be built.

That's right, but can't they then run multiple chargers off that?

KCross · 30-12-2019 12:46pm

Silent Running wrote: »

That's right, but can't they then run multiple chargers off that?

Yes.

They have to get the supply to the site, build the sub-station and then connect the chargers to that. Its not a simple/quick process. Lots of time, planning, money(7 figures).

In contrast, a 50kW unit is an all-in-one thing. As long as there is 50kW available on site its much simpler to get up and running.

HPC's are the future, of course. 50kW is no longer fast but I welcome 2x50kW in any place that had nothing before!

Irishjg · 30-12-2019 12:53pm

Regarding Ecars’ future planned 100kwh rollout they also said that these chargers will be subject to a different fee to the standard DC chargers available at the moment. Basically you will pay more to use them. Personally I have no issue with it, just pointing it out in case someone hadn’t seen it.

ELM327 · 30-12-2019 12:56pm

Irishjg wrote: »

Regarding Ecars’ future planned 100kwh rollout they also said that these chargers will be subject to a different fee to the standard DC chargers available at the moment. Basically you will pay more to use them. Personally I have no issue with it, just pointing it out in case someone hadn’t seen it.

Yes, that's pretty standard, to cover the higher installation costs, hardware cost and MIC cost.

In Norway it's 2.5 nok/min (25c) for 50kW and 3.5nok/min (35c) for hpc

Black_Knight · 30-12-2019 12:59pm

I wonder what their price plans are for the slower 22kW and (less common of late) 7kW chargers? They'll have to be cheaper than 29c/kW, but more expensive than charging at home (17-18cent), while at the same time, being economical enough for apartment owners and those without driveways to use them.

ELM327 · 30-12-2019 1:07pm

I imagine they will be set close to day rate. Very few EV owners wouldnt have night rate.
Alternatively they could be a per hour rate. In Norway, AC/Destination chargers are charged per hour in most instances, some are per kWh, some are free from the municipality

charlieIRL · 30-12-2019 1:15pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Is that
C5HD3 - Mayfield J14

If so, there's apparently supply issues with the site, similar to the Obama Plaza.
Rumors of Ionity and/or an ecars hub going in there in the future too so that will be interesting.

Yes that’s the one.

Irishjg · 30-12-2019 1:16pm

I think Ecars have already said that when fees are introduced for the 22kwh units the cost will be in line with the 50kwh units @ .29c/.33c per kW.

Black_Knight · 30-12-2019 1:45pm

Irishjg wrote: »

I think Ecars have already said that when fees are introduced for the 22kwh units the cost will be in line with the 50kwh units @ .29c/.33c per kW.

That'd be pretty crap. Why would I use the slower charger when I could use a fast charger for the same price?

I would of hoped for something around the same price as day rates.

KCross · 30-12-2019 2:14pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

That'd be pretty crap. Why would I use the slower charger when I could use a fast charger for the same price

Because you value your personal time?

Given a choice of slow charging or fast charging I’d pick slow charging if the car is going to be parked up for a few hours anyway. No one really wants to sit at a rapid for 30-60mins.

Having said that, I would have expected the slow chargers to be cheaper too. Let’s wait and see.

Black_Knight · 30-12-2019 5:32pm

KCross wrote: »

Because you value your personal time?

Given a choice of slow charging or fast charging I’d pick slow charging if the car is going to be parked up for a few hours anyway. No one really wants to sit at a rapid for 30-60mins.

Having said that, I would have expected the slow chargers to be cheaper too. Let’s wait and see.

Likely have to pay parking on top of charging fee, and I'd have to call back after X amount of time to move the car (to avoid more parking fees and overstay fees). At least with a fast charger (in my ioniq) I'd only be there 20-30 minutes. Different story with big kona/Tesla/eNiro batteries

ELM327 · 30-12-2019 5:35pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

Likely have to pay parking on top of charging fee, and I'd have to call back after X amount of time to move the car (to avoid more parking fees and overstay fees). At least with a fast charger (in my ioniq) I'd only be there 20-30 minutes. Different story with big kona/Tesla/eNiro batteries

at a fast charger (HPC) most Tesla would be 30 mins to 80-85%, I'd pay for destination charging as a premium over having to stop!

I paid 30c/kWh for destination charging at a hotel in Cavan where we were at a convention rather than having to stop en route home

unkel · 30-12-2019 5:49pm

KCross wrote: »

They have to get the supply to the site, build the sub-station and then connect the chargers to that. Its not a simple/quick process. Lots of time, planning, money(7 figures).

Ionity and Tesla seem to have no trouble at all doing that very thing (and probably paying the ESB handsomely for most of that work)

Yet they don't need a cent of our tax payers money for it...

KCross · 30-12-2019 6:36pm

unkel wrote: »

Ionity and Tesla seem to have no trouble at all doing that very thing (and probably paying the ESB handsomely for most of that work)

Yet they don't need a cent of our tax payers money for it...

Whats your point? I'm not saying eCars wont do the same, Im just saying its much more complex and if they can get 2x50kW in to a site quickly we shouldnt shout that down.

We need lots more of it and HPC's too, of course, which should start appearing in 2020.

ESB eCars

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