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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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liamog

I've noticed a tendency on the FB groups for more experienced members who drive Nissan cars, to poo-poo the idea of installing >50kW chargers as an unnecessary expense.
They often claim that the majority of cars to date can't charge >50kW so there is no point installing them at all. I wonder how many of these people now have contacts in eCars are influencing decision making.

[Deleted User]

liamog wrote: »

I've noticed a tendency on the FB groups for more experienced members who drive Nissan cars, to poo-poo the idea of installing >50kW chargers as an unnecessary expense.
They often claim that the majority of cars to date can't charge >50kW so there is no point installing them at all. I wonder how many of these people now have contacts in eCars are influencing decision making.

Probably too many.

Sure , there are no 100+ capable CCS cars out there yet but they are on the way.

But, in reality, can anyone expect anything better in Ireland in fairness ?

MJohnston

What does it take for 50kW FCP to be upgraded in future? Full replacement?

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

What does it take for 50kW FCP to be upgraded in future? Full replacement?

For the chargers they are currently installing, yes, it's a full new unit required.
The Ionity chargers are more modular. The charging equipment itself is in a cabinet away from the charge point. Extra modules can be added over time to increase the power output. There are a few different manufacturers making scalable chargers now.

BigAl81

liamog wrote: »

They often claim that the majority of cars to date can't charge >50kW so there is no point installing them at all. I wonder how many of these people now have contacts in eCars are influencing decision making.

When I hear this I think quango incompetency rather than conspiracy to be honest!

BigAl81

To elaborate further, I have a car, first released in Ireland in late 2016, that can charge at 70kW, and a few days before 2020, despite the compaticion literally down the road installing 150kW chargers, we get "new" 50kW ones from eCars.

Where's the vision or progress?

I think you need a certain schadenfreude to drive an EV in Ireland at the moment.

charlieIRL

I’m currently having a cup of tea and a muffin charging in the service station in Monastevin (anything bar shopping with herself!!)

I noticed 4 EV spots marked on the ground but only one charger, marking are well worn, did they take out a second charger from here?

Seems a very busy spot

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Probably too many.

Sure , there are no 100+ capable CCS cars out there yet but they are on the way.

But, in reality, can anyone expect anything better in Ireland in fairness ?

Plenty of cars available now charge >100kW
ETron (I parked beside one in Ionity the other day)
Tesla S/X/3 all charge well above 100kW
Ipace charges at 100kW

50kW is a mild fast charge now, takes me over 1 hour to get 20-80% on this vs less than half that on Ionity/SuC

liamog wrote: »

I've noticed a tendency on the FB groups for more experienced members who drive Nissan cars, to poo-poo the idea of installing >50kW chargers as an unnecessary expense.
They often claim that the majority of cars to date can't charge >50kW so there is no point installing them at all. I wonder how many of these people now have contacts in eCars are influencing decision making.

Yes that's ridiculous. 50kW is 2011 standard fast charging, 10 years obsolete at this point!

unkel

BigAl81 wrote: »

When I hear this I think quango incompetency rather than conspiracy to be honest!

+1

A very bad and inefficient way to spend tax payers money is to give it to a cosy semi-state company where most of it is spent on high salaries and enormous pensions

Much better if we leave it to the private sector (Tesla, Ionity, Easy Go, etc.) to install (super) fast chargers at zero cost to the tax payer.

ELM327

charlieIRL wrote: »

I’m currently having a cup of tea and a muffin charging in the service station in Monastevin (anything bar shopping with herself!!)

I noticed 4 EV spots marked on the ground but only one charger, marking are well worn, did they take out a second charger from here?

Seems a very busy spot

from memory that spot used to have a Chademo only DC fast charger and 2 type 2 AC 22kW sockets.
Replaced with a triple header and remove the SCP?

charlieIRL

ELM327 wrote: »

from memory that spot used to have a Chademo only DC fast charger and 2 type 2 AC 22kW sockets.
Replaced with a triple header and remove the SCP?

Yes it’s a triple head charger here now.

[Deleted User]

Why would anyone champion an older charging speed? If you're building new infrastructure then you should be installing the highest standard available to ensure some semblance of future proofing.

Initially, it might cost more than a 50kw charger but in the long run it won't since the lower powered charger will probably get pulled out much sooner to be replaced anyway.

charlieIRL

ELM327 wrote: »

from memory that spot used to have a Chademo only DC fast charger and 2 type 2 AC 22kW sockets.
Replaced with a triple header and remove the SCP?

Wouldn’t call it a fast charger....I’m charging at 26kW! Crikey that’s slow.

ELM327

I think there is a big cost delta between 50kW and "HPC" - or >50kW - chargers.
If the choice is 2 50kW units or one 150-350kW, I think 2 slower units is better for now. At least you're getting some juice. Ecars seem to agree, as theyve installed 2 new 2*50kW locations recently.

ELM327

charlieIRL wrote: »

Wouldn’t call it a fast charger....I’m charging at 26kW! Crikey that’s slow.

Is that
C5HD3 - Mayfield J14

If so, there's apparently supply issues with the site, similar to the Obama Plaza.
Rumors of Ionity and/or an ecars hub going in there in the future too so that will be interesting.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

I think there is a big cost delta between 50kW and "HPC" - or >50kW - chargers.
If the choice is 2 50kW units or one 150-350kW, I think 2 slower units is better for now. At least you're getting some juice. Ecars seem to agree, as theyve installed 2 new 2*50kW locations recently.

+1

The site might have short term supply issues too so 2x50kW makes more sense in the short term.

We’ve all complained about the single point of failure issue which is much more important than higher speed. 2020 is when the HPC’s are to start being installed and they require significant civil works, not just two standalone units. The HPCs require a substation to be built.

Silent Running

KCross wrote: »

+1

The site might have short term supply issues too so 2x50kW makes more sense in the short term.

We’ve all complained about the single point of failure issue which is much more important than higher speed. 2020 is when the HPC’s are to start being installed and they require significant civil works, not just two standalone units. The HPCs require a substation to be built.

That's right, but can't they then run multiple chargers off that?

KCross

Silent Running wrote: »

That's right, but can't they then run multiple chargers off that?

Yes.

They have to get the supply to the site, build the sub-station and then connect the chargers to that. Its not a simple/quick process. Lots of time, planning, money(7 figures).

In contrast, a 50kW unit is an all-in-one thing. As long as there is 50kW available on site its much simpler to get up and running.

HPC's are the future, of course. 50kW is no longer fast but I welcome 2x50kW in any place that had nothing before!

Irishjg

Regarding Ecars’ future planned 100kwh rollout they also said that these chargers will be subject to a different fee to the standard DC chargers available at the moment. Basically you will pay more to use them. Personally I have no issue with it, just pointing it out in case someone hadn’t seen it.

ELM327

Irishjg wrote: »

Regarding Ecars’ future planned 100kwh rollout they also said that these chargers will be subject to a different fee to the standard DC chargers available at the moment. Basically you will pay more to use them. Personally I have no issue with it, just pointing it out in case someone hadn’t seen it.

Yes, that's pretty standard, to cover the higher installation costs, hardware cost and MIC cost.

In Norway it's 2.5 nok/min (25c) for 50kW and 3.5nok/min (35c) for hpc

Black_Knight

I wonder what their price plans are for the slower 22kW and (less common of late) 7kW chargers? They'll have to be cheaper than 29c/kW, but more expensive than charging at home (17-18cent), while at the same time, being economical enough for apartment owners and those without driveways to use them.

ELM327

I imagine they will be set close to day rate. Very few EV owners wouldnt have night rate.
Alternatively they could be a per hour rate. In Norway, AC/Destination chargers are charged per hour in most instances, some are per kWh, some are free from the municipality

charlieIRL

ELM327 wrote: »

Is that
C5HD3 - Mayfield J14

If so, there's apparently supply issues with the site, similar to the Obama Plaza.
Rumors of Ionity and/or an ecars hub going in there in the future too so that will be interesting.

Yes that’s the one.

Irishjg

I think Ecars have already said that when fees are introduced for the 22kwh units the cost will be in line with the 50kwh units @ .29c/.33c per kW.

Black_Knight

Irishjg wrote: »

I think Ecars have already said that when fees are introduced for the 22kwh units the cost will be in line with the 50kwh units @ .29c/.33c per kW.

That'd be pretty crap. Why would I use the slower charger when I could use a fast charger for the same price?

I would of hoped for something around the same price as day rates.

KCross

Black_Knight wrote: »

That'd be pretty crap. Why would I use the slower charger when I could use a fast charger for the same price

Because you value your personal time?

Given a choice of slow charging or fast charging I’d pick slow charging if the car is going to be parked up for a few hours anyway. No one really wants to sit at a rapid for 30-60mins.

Having said that, I would have expected the slow chargers to be cheaper too. Let’s wait and see.

Black_Knight

KCross wrote: »

Because you value your personal time?

Given a choice of slow charging or fast charging I’d pick slow charging if the car is going to be parked up for a few hours anyway. No one really wants to sit at a rapid for 30-60mins.

Having said that, I would have expected the slow chargers to be cheaper too. Let’s wait and see.

Likely have to pay parking on top of charging fee, and I'd have to call back after X amount of time to move the car (to avoid more parking fees and overstay fees). At least with a fast charger (in my ioniq) I'd only be there 20-30 minutes. Different story with big kona/Tesla/eNiro batteries

ELM327

Black_Knight wrote: »

Likely have to pay parking on top of charging fee, and I'd have to call back after X amount of time to move the car (to avoid more parking fees and overstay fees). At least with a fast charger (in my ioniq) I'd only be there 20-30 minutes. Different story with big kona/Tesla/eNiro batteries

at a fast charger (HPC) most Tesla would be 30 mins to 80-85%, I'd pay for destination charging as a premium over having to stop!

I paid 30c/kWh for destination charging at a hotel in Cavan where we were at a convention rather than having to stop en route home

unkel

KCross wrote: »

They have to get the supply to the site, build the sub-station and then connect the chargers to that. Its not a simple/quick process. Lots of time, planning, money(7 figures).

Ionity and Tesla seem to have no trouble at all doing that very thing (and probably paying the ESB handsomely for most of that work)

Yet they don't need a cent of our tax payers money for it...

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Ionity and Tesla seem to have no trouble at all doing that very thing (and probably paying the ESB handsomely for most of that work)

Yet they don't need a cent of our tax payers money for it...

Whats your point? I'm not saying eCars wont do the same, Im just saying its much more complex and if they can get 2x50kW in to a site quickly we shouldnt shout that down.

We need lots more of it and HPC's too, of course, which should start appearing in 2020.