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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,068 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Why ? it most likely costs nothing to go from 11 Kw to 22 kw.

    What EV has 7 Kw with option to upgrade to 22 Kw ?

    There arent any. Thats my point!
    The Zoe and Tesla's are outliers. All the rest are 7kW with 11kW as an option.

    e.g. €390 to get the upgrade from 7kW to 11kW on the Peugeot e208. I'd pay that for it.

    I think it's a good approach going with 22 Kw x 2 charge points, I'm pretty sure electric cars will have faster AC charging in the coming years, it's a guess of course.

    Great if they do. I doubt it will happen though.
    Daimler are introducing new cars with 22kW DC charging. I could see that happening before 22kW AC.

    11 Kw is better than 7 Kw but it would be nice to see 11 Kw standard in the id.3 because if I were buying one 2nd hand and there was option of 11 Kw or 7 Kw then naturally I'm going to choose the 22 Kw.

    VW have already confirmed the id.3 will be 7.4kW with an optional upgrade to 11kW.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    KCross wrote: »


    Daimler are introducing new cars with 22kW DC charging. I could see that happening before 22kW AC.

    20 kw DC max ? seriously ? that's madness.

    KCross wrote: »
    VW have already confirmed the id.3 will be 7.4kW with an optional upgrade to 11kW.

    I was talking about if I were buying an id.3 2nd hand and if there was a 7 Kw and 11 Kw, I would choose the 11 Kw no question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,068 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    20 kw DC max ? seriously ? that's madness.

    It’s for their PHEVs.


    I was talking about if I were buying an id.3 2nd hand and if there was a 7 Kw and 11 Kw, I would choose the 11 Kw no question.

    For sure, I was just saying that it will be 7kW as standard since you mentioned it would be nice to see 11kW as standard... that’s not happening.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,723 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    I was talking about if I were buying an id.3 2nd hand and if there was a 7 Kw and 11 Kw, I would choose the 11 Kw no question.

    If the 11kW was EUR100 more, sure, I'd pick that one too.

    Knowing VAG practices, it is more likely to be an option costing the guts of EUR1000, which would be a waste of money imho, but I know the likes of yourself would fork out for it anyway :D


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    If the 11kW was EUR100 more, sure, I'd pick that one too.

    Knowing VAG practices, it is more likely to be an option costing the guts of EUR1000, which would be a waste of money imho, but I know the likes of yourself would fork out for it anyway :D

    I probably would yeah, I'd rather have faster AC charging than some gadget I don't need and I already realise the value of having 11 Kw charging in the i3.

    I paid 900 for the 6.6 Kw charger in the 2015 leaf and it had a big impact on the usability of the car. I was very glad I paid for the sheer convenience of faster AC charging because it saved me so much time waiting at fast chargers.

    100 Kw charging would be good but fast charging isn't always convenient, coming back to a charged car , or nearly charged car that's been plugged into an AC point while I go about my business is rather convenient even if it saves me waiting on one DC charge it's worth it.

    100 Kw charging would be great if it can sustain a high rate of charge for any decent time.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,248 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    unkel wrote: »
    If the 11kW was EUR100 more, sure, I'd pick that one too.

    Knowing VAG practices, it is more likely to be an option costing the guts of EUR1000, which would be a waste of money imho, but I know the likes of yourself would fork out for it anyway :D

    Tbh, you’d get a better resale price.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,723 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    ted1 wrote: »
    Tbh, you’d get a better resale price.

    Any optional extra on a car depreciates faster than the car itself. Most optional extras depreciate 100% within the first year.

    I'd say a EUR1000 11kW charger (over the standard 7.2kW charger) is probably better than most optional extras, but I can see it depreciate by at least 50% in the first year.
    I paid 900 for the 6.6 Kw charger in the 2015 leaf

    Madness :D

    A year later when I got a quote for a brand new Leaf, incl. metallic paint for €19.5k on the road, the 6.6kW charger was standard (in all new Leafs offered by the Windsor group)


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    Any optional extra on a car depreciates faster than the car itself. Most optional extras depreciate 100% within the first year.

    I'd say a EUR1000 11kW charger (over the standard 7.2kW charger) is probably better than most optional extras, but I can see it depreciate by at least 50% in the first year.



    Madness :D

    A year later when I got a quote for a brand new Leaf, incl. metallic paint for €19.5k on the road, the 6.6kW charger was standard (in all cars offered by the Windsor group)

    It wasn't madness, what would have been madness where I live and with the amount of Kms I drive would be not having the 6.6 Kw charger in the leaf at the time. Having just 3.3 Kw would have been crazy and would be today. 7 Kw better but 11 Kw is just great. Sometimes I envy Zoe owners.

    It may have been standard but who do you think was paying for it anyway, Windsor ? I think not. ;)

    If I travelled to Dublin in the leaf and for instance went to blanch then in 2 hrs I would have plenty to get back home, with the 3.3 Kw I would have needed 4 hrs , so the same could have been said for many other situations and that meant getting back into the car and driving home, I didn't then have to wait to fast charge or potentially wait for 1 or 2 other cars to charge.

    You also think I'm nuts for having the Rex ffs, for the mileage I do and the hassle that has saved me I guarantee I'll never regret having the Rex.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,248 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    unkel wrote: »
    Any optional extra on a car depreciates faster than the car itself. Most optional extras depreciate 100% within the first year.

    Most are related to ICE, a faster charger saves you approximately 33% of time and makes the car more useable and stressless, spending an extra 1,000 on an ICE doesn’t make such a difference


    Also when you go and sell it, the 7kw will be very slow compared to new standards


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,723 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    If I travelled to Dublin in the leaf and for instance went to blanch then in 2 hrs I would have plenty to get back home, with the 3.3 Kw I would have needed 4 hrs

    And on the fast charger in Blanch it would have taken just 15 minutes


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  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    And on the fast charger in Blanch it would have taken just 15 minutes

    More than 15 mins to get back to Carlow , probably 20-25 mins with the Gen I Leaf at the time, that's 25 mins more I have to hang around doing nothing when all I had to do was plug in at the AC point and it's done when I get back or almost, plenty to get home.

    That's just 1 of many examples.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    ted1 wrote: »
    Most are related to ICE, a faster charger saves you approximately 33% of time and makes the car more useable and stressless

    All well and good on low range cars, but is an extra 20km/h of charging speed really going to make a difference when the car's range is 400km? I imagine it's a rare trip where the difference between 440 km and 460 km of range is the sweet spot.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    All well and good on low range cars, but is an extra 20km/h of charging speed really going to make a difference when the car's range is 400km? I imagine it's a rare trip where the difference between 440 km and 460 km of range is the sweet spot.

    It sure is beneficial, if you can get 2 hrs @11 Kw you could replace roughly 22 Kwh that's 100-120 Kms range and could be all someone needs to get home + that would be less time spent hanging around at a fast charger. The longer your stay the more charge you get.

    Now if 22 Kw DC chargers could be installed instead of the AC then I'd be all for it but they would have to have ChaDeMO and CCS +Zoe couldn't use them and they would be a lot more expensive and probably less reliable, more maintenance etc.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    It sure is beneficial, if you can get 2 hrs @11 Kw you could replace roughly 22 Kwh that's 100-120 Kms range and could be all someone needs to get home + that would be less time spent hanging around at a fast charger. The longer your stay the more charge you get.

    The difference between a 7.4kW charger, and an 11kW charger over 2 hours on a Kona 64 is going to be an extra 36km, on top of your initial 400km range. Would you really pay extra for the charger in that circumstance?

    Don't get me wrong, I think we'll gradually see a move to 11kW onboard chargers becoming standard, but that's more to do with the electrical supply on mainland Europe where it's expensive to fit a 32A charging socket versus a 3 phase 16A one.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    The difference between a 7.4kW charger, and an 11kW charger over 2 hours on a Kona 64 is going to be an extra 36km, on top of your initial 400km range. Would you really pay extra for the charger in that circumstance?

    Don't get me wrong, I think we'll gradually see a move to 11kW onboard chargers becoming standard, but that's more to do with the electrical supply on mainland Europe where it's expensive to fit a 32A charging socket versus a 3 phase 16A one.

    It doesn't matter because I may not need a full charge.

    If I'm plugged in for 1 hr and get 11 Kwh that's 11 Kwh less I have to sit and wait for at a fast charger, if I'm plugged in 2 hrs then that's 22 Kwh I don't have to wait for , 3 hrs plugged in then that's 33 Kwh I don't have to wait for.

    22 Kwh in 2 hrs is nothing to sniff at.

    It's going to be a long time before we see 22 Kw DC chargers, it would be a lot easier if Nissan just went with CCS and then it wouldn't matter so much except for cost but I doubt we're going to see 22 Kw x 2 DC the way we will see 22 x 2 kw AC because the chargers would be a lot larger and have too many cables hanging out of them and they would be installed in places they could have their cables stolen a lot easier than where most fast chargers are now.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    It doesn't matter because I may not need a full charge.

    If I'm plugged in for 1 hr and get 11 Kwh that's 11 Kwh less I have to sit and wait for at a fast charger, if I'm plugged in 2 hrs then that's 22 Kwh I don't have to wait for , 3 hrs plugged in then that's 33 Kwh I don't have to wait for.

    22 Kwh in 2 hrs is nothing to sniff at.

    This line of discussion was more aimed at Ted1, where he was justifying spending €1,000 on an on-board charger upgrade, and that only having a 7kW OBC would be seen as slow when you sell your car.

    As to the general utility of AC charging, right now most of the time I bother plugging into an AC charger is when it's got an advantageous parking position.

    For our personal usage with the Ioniq, there aren't many places we go to that are far enough away and that we stay for long enough that even 11kW charging would be useful. I suppose that's the privilege that comes with living in Dublin. Most of the normal stuff you want/need to do is close by.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    This line of discussion was more aimed at Ted1, where he was justifying spending €1,000 on an on-board charger upgrade, and that only having a 7kW OBC would be seen as slow when you sell your car.

    As to the general utility of AC charging, right now most of the time I bother plugging into an AC charger is when it's got an advantageous parking position.

    For our personal usage with the Ioniq, there aren't many places we go to that are far enough away and that we stay for long enough that even 11kW charging would be useful. I suppose that's the privilege that comes with living in Dublin. Most of the normal stuff you want/need to do is close by.

    I wouldn't call living in Dublin a privilege lol ;)

    Faster AC will be handy and more people will use it when there are more charge points + more powerful on-board chargers in cars.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,248 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    liamog wrote: »
    All well and good on low range cars, but is an extra 20km/h of charging speed really going to make a difference when the car's range is 400km? I imagine it's a rare trip where the difference between 440 km and 460 km of range is the sweet spot.


    A 70kwh battery will take 10 hours to charge vs 6.3, that’s a significant difference, that’s what people will care about. Time is money.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    ted1 wrote: »
    A 70kwh battery will take 10 hours to charge vs 6.3, that’s a significant difference, that’s what people will care about. Time is money.

    In reality won't make a difference here, the cost of installing 3 phase at home is just way too high. And if your really concerned with charging the car quickly you'll do so on the rapid charger instead of caring about an AC upgrade. There is more value in paying for the DC charging speed upgrade such as the 50kW to 100kW on the base model ID.3


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,068 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    I don’t think 11kW upgrade would be worth €1000 but I’d pay, maybe, half that.

    It’s a confirmed €390 upgrade on the e208 in Ireland. That’s well worth it.

    It’s worth zero in financial terms so it’s money you have to be willing to write off but it is very useful.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭BigAl81


    Not one, but two new "rapid" chargers just opened in Galway Plaza!!

    One of the few sites in Ireland not to have a single point of failure finally.

    They're only 50kW chargers, not 100 or 150, and there's only 2, not 4 or 6, but still nice to see some movement.

    The announcement seems to have caught people by surprise. Are there any formal plans for future confirmed sites or upgrades other than the vague dots on maps of Ireland they released in the past does anyone know?


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,130 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Galway to Dublin must be the best served stretch of motorway in terms of chargers in the country at this stage.


  • Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Galway to Dublin must be the best served stretch of motorway in terms of chargers in the country at this stage.

    Odd it keeps getting so much investment so. It was probably the best served route in Ireland before these 2 new chargers. It's great to see a well served route, but sad to see other routes so far being neglected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,723 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    BigAl81 wrote: »
    Not one, but two new "rapid" chargers just opened in Galway Plaza!!

    That's a brilliant location for me!

    164km from my home, so could drive there at motorway speeds in Ioniq, even in winter, if I take it a bit handy. Who owns those chargers and what card / app do you need?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭BigAl81


    unkel wrote:
    Who owns those chargers and what card / app do you need?

    They're ESB chargers, they show on the eCars app now if you search "Galway Plaza"!
    unkel wrote:
    164km from my home, so could drive there at motorway speeds in Ioniq, even in winter, if I take it a bit handy

    Sightly of topic but I got 19kWh/100km on a 60km motorway stretch this week giving a range of 147kms in winter at motorway speed.

    I'd suggest from painful experience you'll be cutting it extremely extremely fine attempting 164 Kms in winter even at 110kmph indicated speed in a 28kWh Ioniq.

    I do a 170km trip every few weeks and had some hairy trips over the year trying to do it in one go!


  • Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭Irishjg


    +1 to that. To achieve 17kwh per 100km on the motorway in winter is aspirational at best. Your figure of 19 to 20kwh is a much more realistic number. The M3SR+ is winter motorway rated for circa 245km using 50kw of available battery so going off those numbers your pretty much spot on sir. I can’t see an Ioniq being 15 to 20% more efficient than that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,723 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    BigAl81 wrote: »
    I'd suggest from painful experience you'll be cutting it extremely extremely fine attempting 164 Kms in winter even at 110kmph indicated speed in a 28kWh Ioniq.

    I'll throw in my eJerryCan + inverter in the boot :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 116 ✭✭Northumberland


    Odd it keeps getting so much investment so. It was probably the best served route in Ireland before these 2 new chargers. It's great to see a well served route, but sad to see other routes so far being neglected.
    for an example of a poorly served Motorway look at the M3 (to Navan/Kells/ and then N3 to Cavan). There are NO chargers at all on the motorway. You can try your luck in the queue at Blanchardstown Centre shopping mall before you join the M3, or take a detour of 12 km off the motorway to charge up on the single fast charger in Navan, if it is working and available. No more chargers until you get to Cavan Town where you now have the luxury of a choice of just 2 AC 22kW chargers on a busy road where it is very difficult to park, even if the spots are not iced. The other 2 AC chargers outside the courthouse in Cavabn have not operated for months, no notice on them explaining why or what the plan is.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Still installing 50 Kw chargers, that's a complete Joke, what's their excuse now ?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭Irishjg


    Still installing 50 Kw chargers, that's a complete Joke, what's their excuse now ?

    Yes true, I believe that Ecars claimed when fees for charge points were announced they had plans to introduce 100kwh capable chargers across the network. I have yet to see anything since then with a reference to those chargers. Hopefully someone here can throw some more light on it.


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