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  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Rudy Sticky Giant


    ted1 wrote: »
    Even at that you’d be mad. Forced to hang out at supermarkets when you want to charge. No thanks.

    That's not the idea, the idea is to make charging more available but if it's free to use it will be used by those who have home charging and not be left for those who come from longer distance who maybe passing by or for those with no home charging.

    So if they're free it makes no sense, not to me anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,248 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    That's not the idea, the idea is to make charging more available but if it's free to use it will be used by those who have home charging and not be left for those who come from longer distance who maybe passing by or for those with no home charging.

    So if they're free it makes no sense, not to me anyway.

    That’s not what we are talking about.... we are talking about someone having no home charger.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    ted1 wrote: »
    Even at that you’d be mad. Forced to hang out at supermarkets when you want to charge. No thanks.

    The general idea is that your not forced to hang out at a supermarket, you just happen to be there anyway.

    When I was at my Mams in Sheffield, the local Morrisons had a 50kW charger, we spent 30 mins getting groceries whilst the car was getting a decent charge outside. 2020 cars, will take 45/60 mins to get a decent charge, and most people may only need one charge a week from their normal usage.

    People with your attitude would make them go to a motorway service station for an ultra rapid charge. Or spend 8 hours parked overnight at a public AC charger.


  • Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Id only love of IKEA did this in Ireland. I don't plan on going there, but it's the perfect place for a destination charger.

    Not sure about the rest of ye, but I get my supermarket shop done in about 15 minutes. I guess Tesco usually have other shops around them, and eventually charging will cost something, but Tesco will give it for free if you so with them or something like that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,248 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    liamog wrote: »
    People with your attitude would make them go to a motorway service station for an ultra rapid charge. Or spend 8 hours parked overnight at a public AC charger.

    Hang on, you said “ Basically making these worthless for people who don't have home chargers.”

    What attitude do I have ? EV’s simply are not suitable for people who don’t have home chargers.

    My attitude is the exact opposite to what you said it is. I wouldn’t send someone to a public charger for 8 hours, I simply wouldn’t recommend an ev.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    ted1 wrote: »
    Hang on, you said “ Basically making these worthless for people who don't have home chargers.”

    What attitude do I have ? EV’s simply are not suitable for people who don’t have home chargers.

    My attitude is the exact opposite to what you said it is. I wouldn’t send someone to a public charger for 8 hours, I simply wouldn’t recommend an ev.

    That's a misguided opinion, many other markets are successfully able to support people who cannot charge at home.

    Take the ID.3 1st, it's coming with a 58kWh usable battery and a WLTP range of 420km. The average annual mileage works out at around 326km per week, meaning someone could happily handle a longer range EV with one charge a week. Now ask yourself would you rather plug your car in whilst doing your weekly shop, or always be parasite charging as you go about your business.

    Maybe eCars should put a little effort into solving the problem, following the example of other European markets, instead of installing quite frankly useless charging infrastructure in supermarket car parks. Paid AC charging is due by the end of 2020. At that point it's going to be a complete white elephant to gain 20% of your battery back, for more than it would of cost you at home.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,248 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    liamog wrote: »
    That's a misguided opinion, many other markets are successfully able to support people who cannot charge at home.

    Take the ID.3 1st, it's coming with a 58kWh usable battery and a WLTP range of 420km. The average annual mileage works out at around 326km per week, meaning someone could happily handle a longer range EV with one charge a week. Now ask yourself would you rather plug your car in whilst doing your weekly shop, or always be parasite charging as you go about your business.

    Maybe eCars should put a little effort into solving the problem, following the example of other European markets, instead of installing quite frankly useless charging infrastructure in supermarket car parks. Paid AC charging is due by the end of 2020. At that point it's going to be a complete white elephant to gain 20% of your battery back, for more than it would of cost you at home.

    Whose encouraging parasite charging I’m not. I’d rather plug in my car at home than anywhere else.

    When the ID does come out and y to he numbers of public chargers dues come out maybe then you might get away without a home charger. But at the moment it’s madness to think about getting an ev, when you don’t t have a home charger


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,720 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    In countries like NL, you don't need a home charger. There are fast chargers everywhere (with no queues) and AC destination chargers in almost every neighbourhood

    Here in Ireland I would not recommend anyone to buy an EV unless they have either home or (guaranteed) work charging. I can't see our infrastructure improve quick enough over the next year or two to change that recommendation, but I'd like to be proven wrong.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    unkel wrote: »
    In countries like NL, you don't need a home charger. There are fast chargers everywhere (with no queues) and AC destination chargers in almost every neighbourhood

    Here in Ireland I would not recommend anyone to buy an EV unless they have either home or (guaranteed) work charging. I can't see our infrastructure improve quick enough over the next year or two to change that recommendation, but I'd like to be proven wrong.

    Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make, Tesco installing 52 dual AC sockets is a daft idea. Whereas eCars with Tesco installing 52 50kW DC chargers would go a long way towards resolving the need for home charging for those who can't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 64,720 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Agreed. That's why I have been speaking for years in favour of DC chargers everywhere (where you are going to stop anyway for at least 20-30 minutes like a supermarket) and against AC chargers (apart from home and work places)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,248 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    unkel wrote: »
    Agreed. That's why I have been speaking for years in favour of DC chargers everywhere (where you are going to stop anyway for at least 20-30 minutes like a supermarket) and against AC chargers (apart from home and work places)

    What’s the capital cost difference per charger between an AC and DC charger?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,215 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Not a regular poster here but posting in Motors for a good few years.
    Genuine question, what is parasite charging?
    I never saw the term used before.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    elperello wrote: »
    Not a regular poster here but posting in Motors for a good few years.
    Genuine question, what is parasite charging?
    I never saw the term used before.

    That's a term I use for people who jump between AC chargers despite them not really being needed for the daily journey.

    For instance, Tesco Liffey Valley have some AC chargers, a driver with an Ioniq will plugin for the hour they are shopping and save around 60c from their home electricity bill. To gain around 50km of range.
    It comes from the days when people had much lower range cars, and often lived by the manta "always be charging".


  • Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭Irishjg


    Banks of DC chargers are the way to go. AC chargers dotted here and there on their own or in the middle or a supermarket car park isn’t really ideal. Chances are the parking spot will be iced or full of shopping trollies anyway besides the elephant in the room that most EVs will only get around 10% extra charge while you’re grocery shopping. A dedicated area with a line of DC chargers cuts out a lot of the BS associated with alternative options.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    I find it bizarre this reaction to Tesco’s decision.
    I see 52 more chargers, yes I’m well on board and in total agreement that it’s multiple DC chargers we need but 52 new AC chargers is a much better step than no new chargers.
    Take the positives.


  • Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    Sure if it were 52 DC chargers being installed we'd only be complaining that they would serve the country better on motorways and charging black spots.

    Why would I go to Tesco and pay 4 times more to charge my car than I could at home (in ignoring those who buy an EV without a home charger, I too think that's madness currently in Ireland).


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Rudy Sticky Giant


    A bank of 10 or more AC chargers is what they need in the one Tesco store, 1 with 2 outlets is just not enough.

    Cars should have more than 7 Kw chargers at this stage of the game.

    The 11 Kw charger in the i3 makes a big difference ( of course you need a 3 phase charge lead, not supplied )

    Zoe owners with 44 Kw AC on board are laughing their heads off at the rest of us with the AC charge points being another source of fast charging for them.

    In the early days Nissan were supposed to have more power AC on board but it didn't happen.

    We need all forms of charging, AC is great when you have more than 7 Kw, I can get roughly 22 Kwh in 2 hrs in the i3 on 3 phase, yes it makes a big difference. The more I spend charging on AC when I'm shopping , out of town etc the less I need to wait at DC chargers. Zoe owners can get around 22 Kwh in 1 hr. Big difference to them over an hours shopping.

    AC is a lot cheaper too than the DC chargers.

    AC works and has huge potential just ask any Zoe owner but you don't really have to because you know that they can use the full 22 Kw from the chargers, it's up to the car manufacturers to install more powerful chargers it can be done and it doesn't have to be very expensive.

    If anyone needed to use the public chargers a lot and home charging was an issue then the Zoe would be on the top of my list , even in winter when fast charging is a lot slower charging a cold battery 22 Kw AC makes a big difference.

    AC/DC we need tonnes more of both.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,068 ✭✭✭✭KCross



    AC works and has huge potential just ask any Zoe owner but you don't really have to because you know that they can use the full 22 Kw from the chargers, it's up to the car manufacturers to install more powerful chargers it can be done and it doesn't have to be very expensive.

    Will the eCars 22kW chargers provide the full 22kW on one port?

    Will it then auto split the power if someone else connects to the other port as I presume it only can provide 22kW in total?


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Rudy Sticky Giant


    KCross wrote: »
    Will the eCars 22kW chargers provide the full 22kW on one port?

    Will it then auto split the power if someone else connects to the other port as I presume it only can provide 22kW in total?

    They provide full 22 Kw per port. Load balancing I'm not sure to be honest. I wouldn't have thought so, I'd doubt they're that intelligent.

    Some of the charge points in work are also 22 Kw per port.

    There are some 3 Kw ESB AC points still around and had previously been marked as 22 Kw on the map.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,068 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    They provide full 22 Kw per port. Load balancing I'm not sure to be honest. I wouldn't have thought so, I'd doubt they're that intelligent.

    Some of the charge points in work are also 22 Kw per port.

    There are some 3 Kw ESB AC points still around and had previously been marked as 22 Kw on the map.

    Surely it would have to split the load if a second car plugs in or else it would have to refuse the connection.

    Not much letting someone plug in and then provide no power! My guess is that the first car would immediately drop to 11kW as the charge point probably has two power modules and can only split it in two evenly.


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  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Rudy Sticky Giant


    KCross wrote: »
    Surely it would have to split the load if a second car plugs in or else it would have to refuse the connection.

    Not much letting someone plug in and then provide no power! My guess is that the first car would immediately drop to 11kW as the charge point probably has two power modules and can only split it in two evenly.

    The charge pints are 22 Kw X 2 they don't have to split anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,068 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    The charge pints are 22 Kw X 2 they don't have to split anything.

    Really. All of them?

    Thats a waste of a 44kW connection then as the max it will generally be giving is 14kW.... 30kW unutilised!

    A rapid would be better for that supply or maybe 4x11kW and have two 2-port charge points.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Rudy Sticky Giant


    KCross wrote: »
    Really. All of them?

    Thats a waste of a 44kW connection then as the max it will generally be giving is 14kW.... 30kW unutilised!

    A rapid would be better for that supply or maybe 4x11kW and have two 2-port charge points.

    Yes only those that are 22 Kw x 2 as I said some are 3 Kw and actually I forgot , some are 7 Kw and may show 22 Kw on the map.


    A waste ? not really, It wouldn't cost much more to have 22 Kw x 2 over 11 Kw x 2.

    If a Zoe can utilise full power then I don't call it a waste or a Model S with dual 10 Kw chargers.

    It's a shame really the car manufacturers are ignoring faster AC with the exception of Renault and BMW. It's all about profit and if they feel they can save 200 euro's they will. The technology is there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,215 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    liamog wrote: »
    That's a term I use for people who jump between AC chargers despite them not really being needed for the daily journey.

    For instance, Tesco Liffey Valley have some AC chargers, a driver with an Ioniq will plugin for the hour they are shopping and save around 60c from their home electricity bill. To gain around 50km of range.
    It comes from the days when people had much lower range cars, and often lived by the manta "always be charging".

    Thanks for the clarification.
    So it's just your own term and not in common usage?


  • Moderators Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    KCross wrote: »
    Really. All of them?

    Thats a waste of a 44kW connection then as the max it will generally be giving is 14kW.... 30kW unutilised!

    A rapid would be better for that supply or maybe 4x11kW and have two 2-port charge points.

    rapids are good for those who need to rapid charge. Tesco putting in a single Rapid charger per site forces people to rush the shop, only allows 1 person to charge, and likely blocks the charger if that person takes more time than they require.

    Sure 30kW will be unutilised... for now. EVs will advance, faster AC charging should become more the norm (remember the old 3.3kW charging leafs) and those 22kW chargers will be able to facilitate that. Once fees for slow charging come in, do we really expect these to be used by anyone other than those who really need it. We can see that change already with the DC network.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    Do we know for sure that these will be run to the same rules as the normal eCars chargers when payment comes? Perhaps they could be different due to it apparently being a partnership with Tesco? Don't EasyGo do that sort of thing, payment for their own chargers, but they install them at shops or other places with different rules?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,068 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    A waste ? not really, It wouldn't cost much more to have 22 Kw x 2 over 11 Kw x 2.

    I'd rather see 11kW x4 than 22kW x2.


    Now, if all new EV's came out with 22kW AC support then fine but they arent. Its 7kW with the option to upgrade to 11kW. I dont think we'll see 22kW AC become the norm in the medium term at least.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Rudy Sticky Giant


    rapids are good for those who need to rapid charge. Tesco putting in a single Rapid charger per site forces people to rush the shop, only allows 1 person to charge, and likely blocks the charger if that person takes more time than they require.

    Sure 30kW will be unutilised... for now. EVs will advance, faster AC charging should become more the norm (remember the old 3.3kW charging leafs) and those 22kW chargers will be able to facilitate that. Once fees for slow charging come in, do we really expect these to be used by anyone other than those who really need it. We can see that change already with the DC network.

    The charge points can charge 2 cars at the same time.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    If they won't install 50kW chargers, then at least install something like the QC20 (https://electricmobility.efacec.com/ev-qc20-quick-charger/).
    If specced with the optional AC charging, then it's exactly the same grid requirement as a 2x22kW AC charger. (22kVA for DC and 22kVA for AC)
    Except now it's usefulness has massively increased, as it can provide 25kW DC for CHAdeMO and CCS cars.


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  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Rudy Sticky Giant


    KCross wrote: »
    I'd rather see 11kW x4 than 22kW x2.


    Now, if all new EV's came out with 22kW AC support then fine but they arent. Its 7kW with the option to upgrade to 11kW. I dont think we'll see 22kW AC become the norm in the medium term at least.

    Why ? it most likely costs nothing to go from 11 Kw to 22 kw.

    What EV has 7 Kw with option to upgrade to 22 Kw ?

    I think it's a good approach going with 22 Kw x 2 charge points, I'm pretty sure electric cars will have faster AC charging in the coming years, it's a guess of course.

    11 Kw is better than 7 Kw but it would be nice to see 11 Kw standard in the id.3 because if I were buying one 2nd hand and there was option of 11 Kw or 7 Kw then naturally I'm going to choose the 22 Kw.


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