FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

storker · 12-02-2020 5:32pm

Necro wrote: »

A surplus in the budget for the first time in over a decade maybe?

I dunno, seems pretty fine to me.

That's just a question of spending cuts. Where did the extra economic activity come from? The reduction in unemployment?

seamus · 12-02-2020 5:32pm

solidasarock wrote: »

Even if the election went to plan. I think a lot of people still expected a bumpy road ahead due to a combo of international and domestic factors.

FG doing everything it can to stay out of the next GOV seems like a driver jumping out of a car moments before it drives off a cliff, and then blaming the person left in the car for not turning the wheel quick enough.

You guys are great.

"If FF and SF make a balls of the country, that's definitely FG's fault".

Falling over yourselves to find a way to blame everything on FG and criticise them for leaving government when you've just overwhelmingly voted to get rid of them.

The numbers are there for the two largest parties to form a government. They should probably give that a go first.

When that fails, I'm sure FG will be opening to listening to any proposals.

wench · 12-02-2020 5:33pm

Keyzer wrote: »

There are two tax rates in this country - 20% and 40%.

Then there is PRSI and USC.

A salary of €120K has total deductions of €48,911 - so total deductions as a percentage of salary (including USC and PRSI) is....

40.76%

Let me explain how I got that number (which is the right number) - (48911/120000) X 100

Reason I'm continually going on about this is you, along with the other poster on this topic, are wrong but you continue to spread misinformation and nonsense when you clearly don't have a clue how to perform basic calculations.

Which, in itself is bad enough, but other people believe this crap...

Mind boggling...

And you keep missing the point that it is the marginal rate, ie, the rate you pay on the next euro of income.

Once you pass on to the higher rate, half of everything else you earn goes in deductions.

The table on page one here illustrates it nicely.
https://www.tasc.ie/assets/files/pdf/tasc_preserving_the_41_per_cent_tax_rate.pdf

Necro · 12-02-2020 5:33pm

storker wrote:

That's just a question of spending cuts. Where did the extra economic activity come from? The reduction in unemployment?

You seem to be describing good governance there to me

:pac:

Mortelaro · 12-02-2020 5:35pm

Yurt! wrote: »

As I suspected, it's all about party tactics and jockeying.

The maths are there for a government. It's not a government I'd like, but it's there for them.

FG wasted no time during the campaign telling us who they won't go to the dance with in the national interest, it will soon come time to tell us who they would be willing to go with if FF keep steady on their no SF stance.
.

During the debates Leo said he'd go in with FF as a very last resort
I doubt that very last resort will happen
A deal will be cut between FF SF and the Greens

The only issue I see with that is the Irish government's honest broker role in the Good Friday agreement
You couldn't have Mary Lou negotiating with herself
Something will need to be found around that

Fanny Wank · 12-02-2020 5:38pm

Necro wrote: »

A surplus in the budget for the first time in over a decade maybe?

I dunno, seems pretty fine to me.

The level of surplus vs the increase in tax take is pathetic (as current expenditure has simply increased to match increase in income and there's doubts over the Sustainability of some increases e.g. corporation tax)

Increasing the old age pension by 13 euro a week under FGs watch has probably added over 100bn to the state's liabilities in future years however

But like the children's hospital that's probably minor

storker · 12-02-2020 5:38pm

Necro wrote: »

You seem to be describing good governance there to me

:pac:

Indeed, but consisting of...? Economic activity isn't boosted by cutting spending.

If you're so sure that it was FG who caused the upswing in economic activity, you must know what were the policies and chain of cause-and-effect that led to it happening. So what were they?

blanch152 · 12-02-2020 5:40pm

Fanny **** wrote: »

The level of surplus vs the increase in tax take is pathetic (as current expenditure has simply increased to match increase in income)

Increasing the old age pension by 13 euro a week under FGs watch has probably added over 100bn to the state's liabilities in future years however

But like the children's hospital that's probably minor

It could be worse, they could have promised to reduce the pension age........oh.....

Fanny Wank · 12-02-2020 5:41pm

blanch152 wrote: »

It could be worse, they could have promised to reduce the pension age........oh.....

And I'll be just as critical of any party pulling the strings if this happens. Anyhow this is a thread re FG I thought

Yeah FG did something stupid but but the other crowd. Usual nonsense

Keyzer · 12-02-2020 5:42pm

wench wrote: »

And you keep missing the point that it is the marginal rate, ie, the rate you pay on the next euro of income.

Once you pass on to the higher rate, half of everything else you earn goes in deductions.

The table on page one here illustrates it nicely.
https://www.tasc.ie/assets/files/pdf/tasc_preserving_the_41_per_cent_tax_rate.pdf

Did you actually read this article? Truthfully? Marginal tax rates mean nothing, it states this in the document.

Page 2:

Headline tax rates do not equal actual tax paid. Any move to raise the threshold at which the 41% income tax rate applies would lower the actual amount of tax paid even further than is already the case, which would imperil Ireland’s ability to provide public services, social transfers and public
investment.

A single person on €32,800 has a ‘marginal tax rate’ of 31% (income tax 20%, USC 7% and PRSI 4%) but pays no more than 18.9% of his or her gross income in taxes.

A single person on €33,800 has a ‘marginal tax rate’ of 52% (income tax 41%, USC 7% and PRSI 4%) but pays no more than 19.8% of his or her gross income in taxes.

In other words, what matters is the effective tax rate as a percentage of gross income, not headline or marginal rates.

Effective tax rate, which is exactly what I have been calculating. And even on 120K, its almost 12 points off 52%.

Before spreading mis-information and quoting documents you haven't read or understand, you need to educate yourself first on how tax/deductions are calculated.

Fanny Wank · 12-02-2020 5:44pm

Keyzer wrote: »

Did you actually read this article? Truthfully? Marginal tax rates mean nothing, it states this in the document.

Page 2:

Headline tax rates do not equal actual tax paid. Any move to raise the threshold at which the 41% income tax rate applies would lower the actual amount of tax paid even further than is already the case, which would imperil Ireland’s ability to provide public services, social transfers and public
investment.

A single person on €32,800 has a ‘marginal tax rate’ of 31% (income tax 20%, USC 7% and PRSI 4%) but pays no more than 18.9% of his or her gross income in taxes.

A single person on €33,800 has a ‘marginal tax rate’ of 52% (income tax 41%, USC 7% and PRSI 4%) but pays no more than 19.8% of his or her gross income in taxes.

In other words, what matters is the effective tax rate as a percentage of gross income, not headline or marginal rates.

Make sure you add 10.75% employer's PRSI too when looking at the astronomical tax take on a decent income & the pathetic services one gets for them

Keyzer · 12-02-2020 5:48pm

Fanny **** wrote: »

Make sure you add 10.75% employer's PRSI too when looking at the astronomical tax take on a decent income & the pathetic services one gets for them

Employer or employee? If employer, that's a completely different discussion.

Fanny Wank · 12-02-2020 5:49pm

Keyzer wrote: »

Employer or employee? If employer, that's a completely different discussion.

Employer's - my point is merely the govt takes an astronomical amount per 100 euro earned by an employee on a half decent income

dubrov · 12-02-2020 5:50pm

Keyzer wrote: »

In other words, what matters is the effective tax rate as a percentage of gross income, not headline or marginal rates.[/I]

That's not completely true. The marginal rate matters when considering additional work.

E.g. If someone was on 30k and offered 10k of extra work. The decision might be different if the tax on that additional 10k is 50% or 20%.

I know loads of people who aren't bothered pushing for promotions as when you factor in tax, the additional effort and stress just isn't worth it.

Fanny Wank · 12-02-2020 5:53pm

dubrov wrote: »

I know loads of people who aren't bothered pushing for promotions as when you factor in tax, the additional effort and stress just isn't worth it.

Similarly I know people who've gone into a 4 day week, "purchase" additional holidays etc as marginal rates mean it doesn't cost them as much as they'd first thought

A lot of employment surveys show people now value flexibility, holidays etc when thinking about employment these days - IMO ridiculous marginal rates are the main factor

In any case, regardless of what level it kicks in, a tax rate where the govt gets more of an extra euro earned than the worker is simply ludicrous IMO

wench · 12-02-2020 5:54pm

dubrov wrote: »

That's not completely true. The marginal rate matters when considering additional work.

E.g. If someone was on 30k and offered 10k of extra work. The decision might be different if the tax on that additional 10k is 50% or 20%.

I know loads of people who aren't bothered pushing for promotions as when you factor in tax, the additional effort and stress just isn't worth it.

Exactly, if half your overtime goes in taxes, it isn't much consolation that your effective tax rate hasn't changed much.

Raven_k42 · 12-02-2020 5:55pm

Wow. Some very angry winners in here today

Keyzer · 12-02-2020 5:56pm

dubrov wrote: »

That's not completely true. The marginal rate matters when considering additional work.

E.g. If someone was on 30k and offered 10k of extra work. The decision might be different if the tax on that additional 10k is 50% or 20%.

I know loads of people who aren't bothered pushing for promotions as when you factor in tax, the additional effort and stress just isn't worth it.

The tax on the additional 10K is not 50% for jaysis sake - above the threshold its 40%.

If your on 30K - your total deductions (tax, usc and prsi) is 15.24%
If your on 40K - your total deductions (tax, usc and prsi) is 21%

You are not paying 50% tax....

The more you earn, the more tax you pay - that's the same in nearly every country in the developed world.

Jasper79 · 12-02-2020 6:00pm

Keyzer wrote: »

The tax on the additional 10K is not 50% for jaysis sake - above the threshold its 40%.

If your on 30K - your total deductions (tax, usc and prsi) is 15.24%
If your on 40K - your total deductions (tax, usc and prsi) is 21%

You are not paying 50% tax....

The more you earn, the more tax you pay - that's the same in nearly every country in the developed world.

yes but if on 40k and earn a 10k promotion, on that 10k extra you will pay almost 50% tax

Tacitus Kilgore · 12-02-2020 6:03pm

Jasper79 wrote: »

yes but if on 40k and earn a 10k promotion, on that 10k extra you will pay almost 50% tax

And on your new salary of 50K how much tax do you pay?

25.8% incl. USC.

osarusan · 12-02-2020 6:06pm

Lads you are just arguing past each other. Yes, the overall or effective tax rate on the entire salary is still much lower than 50%, but also, yes, the tax paid on the extra 1K or 5K or whatever does come out at 50%+ of that 1K or 5K when it takes the overall salary above a certain threshold.

Tacitus Kilgore · 12-02-2020 6:13pm

osarusan wrote: »

Lads you are just arguing past each other. Yes, the overall or effective tax rate on the entire salary is still much lower than 50%, but also, yes, the tax paid on the extra 1K or 5K or whatever does come out at 50%+ of that 1K or 5K when it takes the overall salary above a certain threshold.

There's a poster - spouting numerous times a day that the working poor in Dublin (folk on <35k pa) pay FIFTY % tax but never backs it up. This has all spouted from those posts.

Since that argument has been dismantled, the argument then changed to what % is deducted from overtime.

The truth is, in order to pay more than 50% overall tax on your income, you need to be on about €750,000 a year.

I personally am nowhere near that, - on my own income I pay about 28% overall, which is fine by me - well, it would be even finer, if it was spent well.

gubby · 12-02-2020 6:18pm

will put my hand up and speak as a FG supporter all my life and will continue to do so. A part of me will be glad to see SF now try to fulfill the promises they have been making for years. They are already claiming credit for the "repeal the 8th" and the "marriage ref" also are promising they will build 20,000 homes which FG have already promised and began. But my biggest worry is how SF will complete the negotiations for brexit!!! scary stuff with some of their candidates shouting Tiocfaidh ar la- translation "our day will come" later he said he was talking about the past. funny guy

Keyzer · 12-02-2020 6:20pm

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

There's a poster - spouting numerous times a day that the working poor in Dublin (folk on <35k pa) pay FIFTY % tax but never backs it up. This has all spouted from those posts.

Since that argument has been dismantled, the argument then changed to what % is deducted from overtime.

The truth is, in order to pay more than 50% overall tax on your income, you need to be on about €750,000 a year.

I personally am nowhere near that, - on my own income I pay about 28% overall, which is fine by me - well, it would be even finer, if it was spent well.

Exactly.

Earn more, pay more.

SF voters surely agree with this. Right?

Fanny Wank · 12-02-2020 6:25pm

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

I personally am nowhere near that, - on my own income I pay about 28% overall, which is fine by me - well, it would be even finer, if it was spent well.

Last year the govt took over 40% of my income. Had I not made pension contributions it would have been more. The irony is when I retire the govt will probably have stolen from my fund (again) or I'll not get a state pension which I'm told is why I pay so much prsi. They also charged 10.75% employers PRSI.

I'm not fine with that

We've been told for years we better stick with FF/FG as the left wing boogeymen will
- tax us all to death
- despite this provide rubbish services
- bankrupt the country

Those threats sound very hollow now

That's why people decided to take a chance re rejecting the duopoly of FF/FG

JamesM · 12-02-2020 6:33pm

Raven_k42 wrote: »

Wow. Some very angry winners in here today

The panic here is amazing

The Sinn Fein supporters know that the very minute that they enter government will be the start of the downward spiral.
FG please come back and help us - I never thought that it would start so early given the vitriol that was spouted in the last month from Yurt, Matt etc.

Tacitus Kilgore · 12-02-2020 6:36pm

Fanny **** wrote: »

Last year the govt took over 40% of my income. Had I not made pension contributions it would have been more. The irony is when I retire the govt will probably have stolen from my fund (again) or I'll not get a state pension which I'm told is why I pay so much prsi. They also charged 10.75% employers PRSI.

I'm not fine with that

We've been told for years we better stick with FF/FG as the left wing boogeymen will
- tax us all to death
- despite this provide rubbish services
- bankrupt the country

Those threats sound very hollow now

That's why people decided to take a chance re rejecting the duopoly of FF/FG

I don't disagree with the above, and I also have respect for your opinion and the opinion of that of the electorate!

Only reason I was posting in here was to call out lies.

Yurt2 · 12-02-2020 6:40pm

JamesM wrote: »

The panic here is amazing
The Sinn Fein supporters know that the very minute that they enter government will be the start of the downward spiral.
FG please come back and help us - I never thought that it would start so early given the vitriol that was spouted in the last month from Yurt, Matt etc.

Except no one said that. Merely loving the ironing of FG declaring themselves the opposition when the coalition dance partner process just begun and they are a viable junior partner. After spending years decrying the politics of protest and accusing others of running from government

Vitriol? You must be a delicate sort

um7y1h83ge06nx · 12-02-2020 7:03pm

Such discontent among the SF supporters that FG won't go into government. I'd be half afraid they would start another armed campaign - Firstly get the Fine Gaelers into government and then maybe get the Brits out of Ireland! :-)

splinter65 · 12-02-2020 7:05pm

satguy wrote: »

It seems FG will be very happy to just sit on their hands for 5 years. Would FG voters be happy with this, as it means all those FG votes mean nothing, and do nothing.

Having been in power for 9 years, they did nothing, people have no homes, people still on trollies.

FG may have given some of their rich buddies some tax breaks.

But other than that, they did what FG do best, are their poor hands not numb by now.

We’ve 100% employment. I know that means nothing to some people, and is even a source of embarrassment but it’s actually quite impressive.

piplip87 · 12-02-2020 7:08pm

satguy wrote: »

It seems FG will be very happy to just sit on their hands for 5 years. Would FG voters be happy with this, as it means all those FG votes mean nothing, and do nothing.

Having been in power for 9 years, they did nothing, people have no homes, people still on trollies.

FG may have given some of their rich buddies some tax breaks.

But other than that, they did what FG do best, are their poor hands not numb by now.

Well in fairness SF have sat on their hands for the last 40 years or so

JamesM · 12-02-2020 7:10pm

splinter65 wrote: »

We’ve 100% employment. I know that means nothing to some people, and is even a source of embarrassment but it’s actually quite impressive.

100% employment - I don't think so - Yurt is on here most of the day

Yurt2 · 12-02-2020 7:16pm

JamesM wrote: »

100% employment - I don't think so - Yurt is on here most of the day

There's a big blue thing called planet earth, and on this earth there are places that are close, and places that may be faaaaaaar away from you. In the far away places, the time of day is different to where you are and people go to work when you are tucked up in your little cot.

Thank you for your attention. Maybe you can ask your mammy for a globe your next birthday so you learn more about how time around the world works.

satguy · 12-02-2020 7:16pm

Labour to bow out of the left alliance, but still hope to get the pension age up to 68, but only for poor people.

Brendan Howlin just wants to sit next to Leo for a few years, more hand sitting, more votes wasted.

JohnnyFlash · 12-02-2020 7:29pm

satguy wrote: »

Labour to bow out of the left alliance, but still hope to get the pension age up to 68, but only for poor people.

Brendan Howlin just wants to sit next to Leo for a few years, more hand sitting, more votes wasted.

Every other country is raising the pension age. Even that won’t be enough. People are living to ages considered remarkable when the pension was set at 65. And healthcare outcomes are only going to get better. This is going to become a pan-European crisis in less than 10 years.

If you aren’t a pensioner yourself then you should be actively campaigning to raise the pension age. Not because you’ll be getting a state pension yourself, but because the spend could be better used in solving the myriad of other issues that require money.

satguy · 12-02-2020 7:46pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Every other country is raising the pension age. Even that won’t be enough. People are living to ages considered remarkable when the pension was set at 65. And healthcare outcomes are only going to get better. This is going to become a pan-European crisis in less than 10 years.

If you aren’t a pensioner yourself then you should be actively campaigning to raise the pension age. Not because you’ll be getting a state pension yourself, but because the spend could be better used in solving the myriad of other issues that require money.

35 years stamps paid in,, I want my pension at 65 thank you very much.

BTW,, am still paying stamps..

JohnnyFlash · 12-02-2020 9:01pm

satguy wrote: »

35 years stamps paid in,, I want my pension at 65 thank you very much.

BTW,, am still paying stamps..

And those stamps you paid are being used to pay for the pensions of our current tranche of pensioners. The problem is those pensioners aren't dying at 68 or 69. They are living well into their 80's, and going down to the post office to collect it. As they are entitled to.

There won't be anything much left for you though, unless you invested in a private pension. That's why increasing the pension age and not increasing the pension rate is sound policy. It's terribly unpopular as a concept though. A political time bomb like we won't have faced before.

That isn't a shot at you though, or scaremongering. Economists have been saying this for almost 20 years now. Ireland is better placed than most to kick this can down the road as we still have a relatively young population. It's coming though. 10 years at most.

Plumbthedepths · 12-02-2020 9:21pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

And those stamps you paid are being used to pay for the pensions of our current tranche of pensioners. The problem is those pensioners aren't dying at 68 or 69. They are living well into their 80's, and going down to the post office to collect it. As they are entitled to.

There won't be anything much left for you though, unless you invested in a private pension. That's why increasing the pension age and not increasing the pension rate is sound policy. It's terribly unpopular as a concept though. A political time bomb like we won't have faced before.

That isn't a shot at you though, or scaremongering. Economists have been saying this for almost 20 years now. Ireland is better placed than most to kick this can down the road as we still have a relatively young population. It's coming though. 10 years at most.

If you pay into a private pension , that's not guaranteed either as FG's Michael Noonan dipped his hand in and took hundreds of millions of private pension funds against the wishes and advice of the Troika.

Idbatterim · 12-02-2020 9:23pm

Fanny **** wrote: »

Last year the govt took over 40% of my income. Had I not made pension contributions it would have been more. The irony is when I retire the govt will probably have stolen from my fund (again) or I'll not get a state pension which I'm told is why I pay so much prsi. They also charged 10.75% employers PRSI.

I'm not fine with that

We've been told for years we better stick with FF/FG as the left wing boogeymen will
- tax us all to death
- despite this provide rubbish services
- bankrupt the country

Those threats sound very hollow now

That's why people decided to take a chance re rejecting the duopoly of FF/FG

yes, this hits the nail on the head. Its why I voted SF, I dont own a house, rent in dublin. Get nothing back from FG, rewarding the early risers? LOL! But they support outrageous property prices, which screws people! Wow its so hard to figure out where the FG voters went after nine years of being lied too

Also reducing the pension age is idiocy, but its no more idiotic than leaving it as it is and increasing the OAP every year by five euro, for the next five years, as FF proposed. I dont buy the attacks on SF and prudence, I mean if I were FFG I would try to plant the same seed, but they just want to spend the money in different ways. SF have to form a coalition and our budgets are vetted by the EU. If the regulator does his job, there is nowhere near as much to fear , as is being made out. People want to use fear as a form of control though...

James Brown · 12-02-2020 9:26pm

Necro wrote: »

Ah lighten up Matt, ye will be scurrying back to the opposition benches in a few years at the most, enjoy your popularity while it lasts

With great power comes great responsibility

Heavy hangs the crown

I thought the FG brethern were bad sports in office, well f*** me :rolleyes:
I'm grand chief.
Delighted FG are out

Kermit.de.frog · 12-02-2020 9:26pm

FG don't have to do a thing nor should they.

SF will bring everything crashing down within two years busting up the country and once again the people will have to turn to FG to rescue the country.

Same thing over and over again.

James Brown · 12-02-2020 9:28pm

blanch152 wrote: »

If the cliff is far enough away, and the person left in the car doesn't have a clue about driving, then they will probably escape the blame.

Dat you Enda?

Idbatterim · 12-02-2020 9:28pm

whats the big issue with pensions, the vast majority own houses, if they want to be asset rich and "cash poor" thats their choice and I think that will likely be an option going forward, the occupant could do a sale and lease back of the property for an agreed return etc to banks or a fund etc...

James Brown · 12-02-2020 9:29pm

Necro wrote: »

A surplus in the budget for the first time in over a decade maybe?

I dunno, seems pretty fine to me.

Yet they couldn't avoid record breaking numbers of homeless children......sad.

Kermit.de.frog · 12-02-2020 9:42pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Yet they couldn't avoid record breaking numbers of homeless children......sad.

If only things were so simple.

Plumbthedepths · 12-02-2020 9:46pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If only things were so simple.

Choices play a part.

ygolometsipe · 12-02-2020 9:48pm

It's great FG are so happy to be in opposition. I only hope it lasts indefinitely.

FF should be barred from government permanently.

Keyzer · 13-02-2020 10:20am

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

I don't disagree with the above, and I also have respect for your opinion and the opinion of that of the electorate!

Only reason I was posting in here was to call out lies.

Same for me... Ironic that both parties who were spouting these lies have since scurried back under their respective rocks.

Idbatterim · 13-02-2020 12:52pm

Fg said things take time, they had nine years, so why arent thy rooting to form government now again, to implement everything, that they had set the ball rolling on? :rolleyes:

average_runner · 13-02-2020 12:56pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Fg said things take time, they had nine years, so why arent thy rooting to form government now again, to implement everything, that they had set the ball rolling on? :rolleyes:

Because they are only the 3rd biggest party. Now we will see what SF are made of?
Carbon tax increase in the next budget is the first thing anyhow

FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

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