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Public service pay cut?

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    #1952
    EndaHonesty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Sinzo wrote: »
    No .. they are not.
    They are too busy keeping the show on the road .making sure that self employed people like your good self are kept in business..or making sure that private sector workers unfortunate enough to have been laid off get some help to keep them going.
    I'm sure you're probably getting a big fat cheque from revenue to pay your employees...

    No public sector employees are getting paid at the moment? Are you sure about that Sinzo?

    Are you really that separated from reality?

    There's foaming now, defo :pac:


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    #1953
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    salonfire wrote: »
    Hope you are not in charge of any decision making or accounts!

    You don't seem to understand falling incomes in the private sector means less money to pay your salary.

    To a certain extent that is a two way street.where do you think public sector workers spend their disposable income??


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    #1954
    EndaHonesty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Sinzo wrote: »
    To a certain extent that is a two way street.where do you think public sector workers spend their disposable income??

    Are union dues pre or post tax? :pac:


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    #1955
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Sinzo wrote: »
    To a certain extent that is a two way street.where do you think public sector workers spend their disposable income??

    After extracting massive amounts of wealth from the private sector, a percentage of it might return to the local business.


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    #1956
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    EndaHonesty wrote: »
    Ha... Who's bitterness is showing now?...

    Honestly, Dishonest Enda, I feel no bitterness. Not one bit. I'm happy enough at the moment.

    I wouldn't swap places with you. You keep paying into that massive private pension of yours and you better hope that the sharks in the private sector dont misappropriate it.. first they will tell you its defined benefits..then they will tell you it's a defined contributions and before you know it they will tell you that their managed fund was put in the wrong stocks and you wont even get back what you put in..

    And who wi you depend on then?? Of course.. the state and the public servants who work there..

    A little thanks would be nice...


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    #1957
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    salonfire wrote: »
    After extracting massive amounts of wealth from the private sector, a percentage of it might return to the local business.

    Generally, the public sector spend the vast majority of their disposable income on buying goods and services. Who provides those goods and services? The private sector. So there is a quid pro quo to it. I wouldn't call an average workers pay a "massive amount of wealth".
    I would also not refer to our work in terms of extracting wealth from the private sector.

    We perform duties for which we are financially remunerated.do you extract wealth from your employer or does he just give you a wage?


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    #1958
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    EndaHonesty wrote: »
    No public sector employees are getting paid at the moment? Are you sure about that Sinzo?

    Are you really that separated from reality?

    There's foaming now, defo :pac:

    No public sector employees are availing of the covid scheme or the wage subsidy scheme. You should know that. I hope you know more about business than you know about the wage subsidy scheme.

    And the real bitterness around here is coming from you. So you need to sit down and take a nice sip of beaujolais.


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    #1959
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Of course people wont spend it local if they are being ripped off. I was getting an extension and local builders gave me ridiculous overpriced quotes. A few lads I knew from the G.A.A. in Armagh gave me a quote about 30% cheaper, no ****e talk about cash jobs for the electrician etc. They travelled each day 65 miles each way and did a great job. Materials were bought wherever they were cheapest and everything went through the books as I was able to get some renewable energy grants


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    #1960
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    EndaHonesty wrote: »
    Are union dues pre or post tax? :pac:

    Union dues are on average less than a tenner a week.. so a years worth of union subs would go a long way towards paying for that gold plated state pension of yours..
    I suppose you dont believe in unions. You probably have your employees on the minimum wage. And the state then picks up the tab for you not paying a living wage by having to pay them the working family payment.

    Dont pretend to be on the side of the common public sector worker. You want to screw them over more than any public sector pension payments..


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    #1961
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    Edgware wrote: »
    Of course people wont spend it local if they are being ripped off. I was getting an extension and local builders gave me ridiculous overpriced quotes. A few lads I knew from the G.A.A. in Armagh gave me a quote about 30% cheaper, no ****e talk about cash jobs for the electrician etc. They travelled each day 65 miles each way and did a great job. Materials were bought wherever they were cheapest and everything went through the books as I was able to get some renewable energy grants

    Yes there is hypocrisy everywhere....


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    #1962
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    Dav010 wrote: »
    When did you bail out the private sector?

    The same time you did!!


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    #1963
    oyvey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭oyvey


    Not saying the public service should be cut, but I don't think it should be completely off the table if we're all looking at cutbacks and redundancies.


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    #1964
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Sinzo wrote: »
    The same time you did!!

    You mean we all bailed out the banks to the tune of 60 billion and yet the debt was 200billion for the period of the last recession the other 140billion was for our redicously high levels of public pay & pensions and welfare, we had to borrow about a 140 billion over the course of the recession to pay this, thats why there were cuts in 2008/2010 so now this year alone the deficit will be increasing by 30 billion if we have a second wave and have to shut down again you will be getting big cuts it is not sustainable to be paying what we are paying at the moment


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    #1965
    EndaHonesty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Sinzo wrote: »
    The same time you did!!

    Except while bailing them out you were sucking at the government tit at the same time... :pac:


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    #1966
    EndaHonesty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    oyvey wrote: »
    Not saying the public service should be cut, but I don't think it should be completely off the table if we're all looking at cutbacks and redundancies.

    Haven't you heard? It's 30% higher wages AND guaranteed employment AND gold-plated defined benefit pensions AND their worth it...


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    #1967
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    EndaHonesty wrote: »
    Except while bailing them out you were sucking at the government tit at the same time... :pac:

    Listen ... it's already established that you are just as much of a leech on society .. so I m not too concerned about what you have to say..


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    #1968
    EndaHonesty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭EndaHonesty


    Sinzo wrote: »
    Listen ... it's already established that you are just as much of a leech on society .. so I m not too concerned about what you have to say..

    I don't think you know what the words "already established" mean, and thanks for admitting you're a leech on society.

    I'm a net contributer to the state finances, you're a drain on them...


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    #1969
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    EndaHonesty wrote: »
    Haven't you heard? It's 30% higher wages AND guaranteed employment AND gold-plated defined benefit pensions AND their worth it...

    You need to change your name to something more suitable.. honest you are not.. u get your own defined benefits pension for as little as 500 per annum... that's more gold plated than my pension..

    Generally we are better paid on average than the private sector. Do you save lives every day? Can you nurse a palliative patient ?
    Have you got the cajunas to chase criminals? Btw you must be earning multiples of an average workers wages so you might want to keep quiet!! Your not in a position to preach or be jealous...

    If you were qualified enough or brave enough or caring enough (which it appears you are not) then I bet you would be looking g for a decent wage..and not the minimum wage you like to pay your victims, I mean, employees...

    If the economy goes down the tubes we will all be screwed you, me and my granny! And your cushty private pension will have bit the dust.... maybe no one will have any pension worth talking about.

    If there is a recession then public jobs and cuts are on the cards... it's a new era... so dont necessarily judge the future based on the past..

    It will be MAD .. mutually assured destruction... and the only winners will be the 1 percent who own 40 percent of the wealth.. they will just get richer.. that's the way capitalism works.. the rich get richer.. you should know... you like to live by that ethos...


    Ha ha. That was a funny side track..

    Well dishonesty.. I think you should take a deep breath and smell the Rose's..


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    #1970
    oyvey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭oyvey


    EndaHonesty wrote: »
    I don't think you know what the words "already established" mean, and thanks for admitting you're a leech on society.

    I'm a net contributer to the state finances, you're a drain on them...

    Isn't that crazy though? When **** hits the fan financially the only response is to drain the area's that generate the national income harder, to the point that they may collapse.

    It's like having a hole in your bathtub, and instead of plugging the hole you just turn the tap on further.


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    #1971
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    fliball123 wrote: »
    You mean we all bailed out the banks to the tune of 60 billion and yet the debt was 200billion for the period of the last recession the other 140billion was for our redicously high levels of public pay & pensions and welfare, we had to borrow about a 140 billion over the course of the recession to pay this, thats why there were cuts in 2008/2010 so now this year alone the deficit will be increasing by 30 billion if we have a second wave and have to shut down again you will be getting big cuts it is not sustainable to be paying what we are paying at the moment

    Ah jez, how's it going Fliball, haven't seen ya since the last recession, it must've been a tough few years on you, waiting in the wings sharpening your rhetoric and your axe, waiting for the next one to land. Did you branch out, learn an instrument or take up hill walking, I hope you did.

    Remind me how much the implementation of Flibonomics would've cut the public sector pay bill by, during the last recession?

    To make a meaningful impact would require substantial % pay reductions.

    What areas would you have cut, and by how much?

    What would the knock on consequences be, in terms of the likelihood of industrial action and the cost of that to the economy?

    How many people would just cash in their chips and retire, saving current wages to the extent that some roles would go unfilled (although even the most pigheaded person would acknowledge that some roles will still need to be filled), bringing forward the payment of their lump sums and pensions.

    Remind me about your plans for welfare during that recession as well, how much were we going to cut off that, during an unprecedented economic slump, without severely damaging the fabric of our society.


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    #1972
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    EndaHonesty wrote: »
    Haven't you heard? It's 30% higher wages

    I'm confused, can you explain to me what you mean by this bit please? Genuine question.


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    #1973
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    EndaHonesty wrote: »
    I don't think you know what the words "already established" mean, and thanks for admitting you're a leech on society.

    I'm a net contributer to the state finances, you're a drain on them...

    I contribute to society. I work in return for a decent wage. I pay the taxes that subsidise you, your business and your pension and then I spend money on your goods and services (well probably not your goods and services because I try not to deal with sharks)..

    I am not a leech on society. I give my services to society in return for a wage. I pay taxes on my income (at a higher rate than you) and after 40 years I get a pension.

    Sharks like you prefer to profiteer on the common man and take everything for your own good without a care for anyone else..


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    #1974
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    barneystinson wrote: »
    Ah jez, how's it going Fliball, haven't seen ya since the last recession, it must've been a tough few years on you, waiting in the wings sharpening your rhetoric and your axe, waiting for the next one to land. Did you branch out, learn an instrument or take up hill walking, I hope you did.

    Remind me how much the implementation of Flibonomics would've cut the public sector pay bill by, during the last recession?

    To make a meaningful impact would require substantial % pay reductions.

    What areas would you have cut, and by how much?

    What would the knock on consequences be, in terms of the likelihood of industrial action and the cost of that to the economy?

    How many people would just cash in their chips and retire, saving current wages to the extent that some roles would go unfilled (although even the most pigheaded person would acknowledge that some roles will still need to be filled), bringing forward the payment of their lump sums and pensions.

    Remind me about your plans for welfare during that recession as well, how much were we going to cut off that, during an unprecedented economic slump, without severely damaging the fabric of our society.

    Flibalomics.... this sounds interesting... ha ha .. tell us more. We will have to get Dishonest Enda to help us out here!


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    #1975
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    oyvey wrote: »
    Isn't that crazy though? When **** hits the fan financially the only response is to drain the area's that generate the national income harder, to the point that they may collapse.

    It's like having a hole in your bathtub, and instead of plugging the hole you just turn the tap on further.

    Hi Ovey.. can you explain your point a bit further please.. I'm interested in what you have to say...


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    #1976
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    barneystinson wrote: »
    Ah jez, how's it going Fliball, haven't seen ya since the last recession, it must've been a tough few years on you, waiting in the wings sharpening your rhetoric and your axe, waiting for the next one to land. Did you branch out, learn an instrument or take up hill walking, I hope you did.

    Remind me how much the implementation of Flibonomics would've cut the public sector pay bill by, during the last recession?

    To make a meaningful impact would require substantial % pay reductions.

    What areas would you have cut, and by how much?

    What would the knock on consequences be, in terms of the likelihood of industrial action and the cost of that to the economy?

    How many people would just cash in their chips and retire, saving current wages to the extent that some roles would go unfilled (although even the most pigheaded person would acknowledge that some roles will still need to be filled), bringing forward the payment of their lump sums and pensions.

    Remind me about your plans for welfare during that recession as well, how much were we going to cut off that, during an unprecedented economic slump, without severely damaging the fabric of our society.

    To start with I wouldnt be giving pay rises , if things get back to normal in the private sector as in low levels on welfare I would leave things as they are but if there is a high % then there will have to cuts the numbers dont add up. To start I would give the PS an option of opting out of their pension or to pay the full cost themselves that would be a start


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    #1977
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    EndaHonesty wrote: »
    Except while bailing them out you were sucking at the government tit at the same time... :pac:

    We all know you were the one sucking at the teet Enf of Honesty.. I was working away trying to be productive and getting paid a reduced salary for it.... I wonder what you were at at the time?


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    #1978
    Sinzo
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Sinzo


    fliball123 wrote: »
    To start with I wouldnt be giving pay rises , if things get back to normal in the private sector as in low levels on welfare I would leave things as they are but if there is a high % then there will have to cuts the numbers dont add up. To start I would give the PS an option of opting out of their pension or to pay the full cost themselves that would be a start

    Thanks for your contribution Fliball. It was very succinct..


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    #1979
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    oyvey wrote: »
    Not saying the public service should be cut, but I don't think it should be completely off the table if we're all looking at cutbacks and redundancies.

    Has somebody said they should be?

    If they did, they're being a bit silly IMHO.

    If things get bad enough then the state will have to make cuts. They did so the last time round, and I think the relatively quick recovery (relative to how deep in the sh1t we were) bears out the decisions at the time. And those cuts were done, ultimately, with the agreement / grudging acceptance of public sector workers.

    Most public sector workers, just like most of the population in general, are capable of being quite pragmatic when they have to be.

    Just like most people outside of the private sector don't begrudge the bejaysus out of the pay and conditions of public sector workers, most of the time i.e. when times are good and private sector wages are rising faster than public sector wages (which is fine and to be expected, because public sector workers know that they have chosen to work in a lower risk environment and therefore that's a price they pay to have that security).

    Of course, there will always be people who can't wrap their heads around averages and make nonsense statements like "the public sector's wages are 30% higher than the private sector", without the intellectual honesty to stop for a second and think about the plain stupidity of trying to compare:

    1. the average of the pay of every public doctor, nurse, hospital porter, services officer, clerical officer, executive officer, higher executive officer, assistant principal officer, principal officer, assistant secretary, deputy secretary, secretary general, fireman, garda, teacher, SNA,

    versus

    2. the average of the pay of every supermarket worker, IT developer, hotel worker, electrician, car salesman, solicitor, apprentice blocklayer, chef, bank manager, deli assistant, factory manager etc...

    I'm not sure what we can do about them - if they lack either the intelligence to grasp the inherent ridiculousness of that as a starting proposition, or the basic integrity to start from a more sensible jumping off point, then there may not be much to be done, other than calmly point out the nonsense as it arises. Like you'd deal with a hysterical small child really.


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    #1980
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Sinzo wrote: »
    Thanks for your contribution Fliball. It was very succinct..

    Your welcome to be honest I would like the environment to be better but it is what it is and the country is in trouble and need must


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    #1981
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    fliball123 wrote: »
    To start with I wouldnt be giving pay rises , if things get back to normal in the private sector as in low levels on welfare I would leave things as they are but if there is a high % then there will have to cuts the numbers dont add up. To start I would give the PS an option of opting out of their pension or to pay the full cost themselves that would be a start

    OK, that addressed a fraction of my post.

    Are you done, not bothering with the hard bits, or will we just park the past, and the policies you wanted to implement the last time that would probably have caused massive harm?
    fliball123 wrote: »
    To start I would give the PS an option of opting out of their pension or to pay the full cost themselves that would be a start
    Why should they pay the full cost themselves though? When you compare the public sector to the private sector, the appropriate comparison is to large private sector organisations that try to retain staff, not to your local cafe, or the call centre up the road.

    Have a look at this link, maybe you will realise that you are being completely unrealistic in what you said there, and come back to me: https://www.iapf.ie/News/PressReleases/default.aspx?month=5&year=2018&id=47#:~:text=The%20employer%20will%20usually%20pay,somewhere%20between%205%25%2D12%25.


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