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Public service pay cut?

  • 14-05-2020 10:16am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,343 ✭✭✭ Wheety


    I think there will be reductions. Certainly, I imagine, the pay restoration due in October, will not go ahead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 934 ✭✭✭ nigeldaniel


    Well if they clamped down on expenses I would not see a need for pay cuts.

    Dan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 671 addaword


    Of course there will be pay cuts, the country is living way beyond its means and is spending much more than it is taking in. It is unsustainable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭ FVP3


    We definitely need to take more money out of the economy as this crisis unfolds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,739 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    Is it really possible to cut the pay of nurses in the aftermath of Covid-19?

    Yes, I think the increase due in October will be deferred, possibly with a promise of back-payment when the finances allow, and the next deal will not be as generous as previously expected. However, there are many public servants whose rate of pay is still below the 2008 rate - the scope for cuts is therefore limited.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭ Damian Faint Carp


    Not a hope, cutting nurses pay during this would create a political storm


  • Registered Users Posts: 457 ✭✭ Summer2020


    The pay increase due in October is tied to a productivity deal , a lot of which has already been implemented in the PS. So if it doesn’t go ahead then the govt have broken their side of the deal, expect a lot of the productivity improvements to be rolled back.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭ saabsaab


    FVP3 wrote: »
    We definitely need to take more money out of the economy as this crisis unfolds.


    True, just what is needed! No money to any sector or business bound to improve the economic recovery.


  • Registered Users Posts: 645 ✭✭✭ Fred Cryton


    No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    FVP3 wrote: »
    We definitely need to take more money out of the economy as this crisis unfolds.

    The former government department person on the RTE 1 radio was keen on keeping infrastructure spending going.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    Not a hope, cutting nurses pay during this would create a political storm

    What is the obsession with nurses? there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,658 ✭✭✭ Fann Linn


    I heard some FFailer earlier this week saying we should get a bonus.
    Bring it on. Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭ mlem123


    I hope not.. I'm a recent entrant in the HSE but have been redeployed for months, now working harder than I ever have anywhere else I've worked and the idea of being rewarded with a pay cut would be upsetting to say the least


  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭✭ ShareShare


    mariaalice wrote: »
    What is the obsession with nurses? there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.

    Its a pandemic. They're risking their lives to help save us.
    When its not a pandemic, when you are at your weakest.. they help you.

    This is why we care about them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    mlem123 wrote: »
    I hope not.. I'm a recent entrant in the HSE but have been redeployed for months, now working harder than I ever have anywhere else I've worked and the idea of being rewarded with a pay cut would be upsetting to say the least

    For what its worth I don't think there will be pay cuts as such, but promotion will be paused and the like, soft pay cuts, there will be a lot of recruitment but it all all be an entry-level we have an expanding population and need services health care, education has to be provided.

    Infrastructure spending will go ahead with some tweeks as it a stimulus ot the economy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,289 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_maxx


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

    no there will not , FG are the only party who would even consider such a thing and they are led by a spineless cynic obsessed with spin


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,289 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_maxx


    mariaalice wrote: »
    What is the obsession with nurses? there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.

    irish people love nurses , sure everyone knows that


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    ShareShare wrote: »
    Its a pandemic. They're risking their lives to help save us.
    When its not a pandemic, when you are at your weakest.. they help you.

    This is why we care about them.

    I know that what i meant was why the obsession with mentioning them in every discussion on HSE public service pay when there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,485 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    The thing with public service pay is that those on low incomes shouldn’t be cut. While those on higher incomes are paying 52% tax which goes back to the employer.

    So really lots of times it’s just optics.

    Take a 2,000 pay cut
    State that’s 1040 euro
    Employee gets 960.
    Employee pays 23% VAT on say 600 worth of goods
    So another 138 goes back to employer
    Say other 360 goes on services at 13% tax, so another 48 euro.

    Out of 2,000. The state are taking back 1,226 anyway. But the 2,000 is supporting business and jobs. So really the state would achieve nothing by pay cuts


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    ted1 wrote: »
    The thing with public service pay is that those on low incomes shouldn’t be cut. While those on higher incomes are paying 52% tax which goes back to the employer.

    Do really lots of times it’s just optics.

    Take a 2,000 pay cut
    State that’s 1040 euro
    Employee gets 960.
    Employee pays 23% VAT on say 600 worth if good
    So another 138 goes back to employer
    Say other 360 goes on services at 13% tax, so another 48 euro.

    Out of 2,000. The state are taking back 1,226 anyway. But the 2,000 is supporting business and jobs. So really the state would achieve nothing by pay cuts

    I do not think there will be pay cuts but there will be other ways of cutting spending or pausing spending, there are lots of ways less spending can be spun so its dose does not look like less spending.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,046 ✭✭✭ fly_agaric


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

    I expect so. Even with massive borrowing by the state there will still be another "FEMPI" type cut for them all next year IMO. Could get rocky industrial relations wise but if we still have some massive % of unemployment across the economy by that time, similar to financial crisis will be hard to object (particularly for those further up the payscales)

    The borrowing will (hopefully) mean they won't have an indiscriminate hiring freeze like 2008-2014 or so, or slash the health budget (or other public sector budgets) to ribbons when it'll probably be a very bad time to do that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 286 ✭✭ Bicyclette


    There are a lot of public sector employees currently doing a 37.5 hour week at the moment for roughly €150 more than the Covid payment - e.g. 500 pw or less vs €350 pw. By the time you take off deductions, there isn't a significant difference. Its €4 per hour more gross.

    These people are working in places such as Social Welfare and Revenue processing payments, doing contact tracing, and other things that are keeping this country going.

    Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

    There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
    Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

    Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,289 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_maxx


    Bicyclette wrote: »
    There are a lot of public sector employees currently doing a 37.5 hour week at the moment for roughly €150 more than the Covid payment - e.g. 500 pw or less vs €350 pw. By the time you take off deductions, there isn't a significant difference. Its €4 per hour more gross.

    These people are working in places such as Social Welfare and Revenue processing payments, doing contact tracing, and other things that are keeping this country going.

    Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

    There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
    Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

    Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.

    well thats good to know ( that they werent - arent earning much ) , the vast majority of the clerical officers ive dealt with down the years , i wouldnt trust them to run to the shops to get me a newspaper , they were that incompetent


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    Bicyclette wrote: »
    There are a lot of public sector employees currently doing a 37.5 hour week at the moment for roughly €150 more than the Covid payment - e.g. 500 pw or less vs €350 pw. By the time you take off deductions, there isn't a significant difference. Its €4 per hour more gross.

    These people are working in places such as Social Welfare and Revenue processing payments, doing contact tracing, and other things that are keeping this country going.

    Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

    There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
    Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

    Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.

    The COVID payment has nothing to do with it, its a short term emergency payment. a very odd view to take, the lower end of the basic clerical salary is poor alright.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,289 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_maxx


    mariaalice wrote: »
    The COVID payment has nothing to do with it, its a short term emergency payment. a very odd view to take, the lower end of the basic clerical salary is poor alright.

    its better than what most receptionists or low level secretaries do in the private sector and they dont have a guarenteed pension

    differences between public and private are widest at the lower end


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭ august12


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    well thats good to know ( that they werent - arent earning much ) , the vast majority of the clerical officers ive dealt with down the years , i wouldnt trust them to run to the shops to get me a newspaper , they were that incompetent
    You could also apply that logic to any grade in the public sector, difference being, the obscene levels of income paid to incompetent senior staff who's best career performance is a 30 minute interview. That's one of the major problems with promotion in the public sector. And won't be changed anytime soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,290 ✭✭✭✭ mariaalice


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    its better than what most receptionists or low level secretaries do in the private sector and they dont have a guarenteed pension

    differences between public and private are widest at the lower end

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  • Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭ VillageIdiot71


    Bicyclette wrote: »

    Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

    There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
    Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

    Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.
    And the Clerical Officer scale goes up to €40,000 p.a., which is double the Covid payment. Quite good money.

    On nurses, at some stage we've got to get over it. The honest ones frankly admit that they're having the easiest couple of months they've ever had, as the hospitals are empty.

    Low paid care assistants in nursing homes are under pressure, and genuinely in the so called front line. But they're mostly in the private sector. Ditto supermarket workers, who've had much more exposure to the general population than nurses, frequently for nothing more than minimum wage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭ FVP3


    No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

    Could tax the rich but in the absence of that it's either tax the middle income groups, or let the deficit increase. Maybe grab a few of those sweet eurobonds.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,874 ✭✭✭✭ noodler


    ShareShare wrote: »
    Its a pandemic. They're risking their lives to help save us.
    When its not a pandemic, when you are at your weakest.. they help you.

    This is why we care about them.

    Alot of hospitals are empty.

    There was a pay deal for nurses last year, on top of the general PS pay deal and increments.

    I also think we shouldn't lump all nurses in with this those on ICU and COVID wards.


    Those nurses should get a grant.

    Obviously difficult to see the 2% in October at the very least.


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