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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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ankles

Civil service pensions are now funded by contributions from employer and employee. Changes in PS pensions during the collapse (move to average salary rather than final salary and increased employee contributions) mean that for newer staff the pension deductions are substantial. All in all some 17% of my pay goes to pension deductions of one sort or another. That said, the equivalent employer (governement funding) is some 23% which you would never see now in the private sector. Equally though, I have my doubts as to whether the public sector pension will still be as genrous by the time I draw it down. Would prefer the money now tbh

[Deleted User]

oyvey wrote: »

That's a really bad attitude.

whoooooosssshh

fliball123

barneystinson wrote: »

Did you read the link?

Have you seen the job losses ?

fliball123

Sinzo wrote: »

There is serious hole in the private sector when it comes to pensions. It will probably turn out that the government will end up forcing private sector workers to pay into a pension in the same way public service workers do.

Everyone including public servants pay towards your very own defined pension. So while you subsidise a public service pension, it is also true to say that public servants also subsidise your pension.

Sorry I pay more than enough tax to cover my state pension which I may get when I am 80 at the rate things are going.

barneystinson

fliball123 wrote: »

The facts are the there are a lot less pensions in the private sector than in the public sector. Someone in the private sector who has a pension is nearly always a defined contribution. So what age are ps allowed retire to get their pension again by the time this clusterphuck and brexit completes I will be lucky to get my OAP at 80 with the way the government keep putting the age up. Will the government go and raid the private pension pot again like last time?

The facts are I am not paying a pension for anyone in the private sector bar my own. The same cannot be said about public servants thats a fact and unfair as I cant afford to put by for my own.

Did you read the link?

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

your troubles are your troubles

dont come looking at me

Sorry they are your troubles the spend side of this equation has to come down as income tax is going to fall off a cliff, your deluded if you think its not your problem and there will be cuts to the ps it might not be this year but it will be coming soon as the spending in this country is unsustainable and if they keep going the IMF will be back in and like last time they will quite rightly so they will point a finger at our high levels of expenditure in both welfare and public sector pay. But keep sticking your head in the sand if you want

oyvey

Deleted User wrote: »

your troubles are your troubles

dont come looking at me

That's a really bad attitude.

Sinzo

fliball123 wrote: »

The facts are the there are a lot less pensions in the private sector than in the public sector. Someone in the private sector who has a pension is nearly always a defined contribution. So what age are ps allowed retire to get their pension again by the time this clusterphuck and brexit completes I will be lucky to get my OAP at 80 with the way the government keep putting the age up. Will the government go and raid the private pension pot again like last time?

The facts are I am not paying a pension for anyone in the private sector bar my own. The same cannot be said about public servants thats a fact and unfair as I cant afford to put by for my own.

There is serious hole in the private sector when it comes to pensions. It will probably turn out that the government will end up forcing private sector workers to pay into a pension in the same way public service workers do.

Everyone including public servants pay towards your very own defined pension. So while you subsidise a public service pension, it is also true to say that public servants also subsidise your pension.

[Deleted User]

salonfire wrote: »

Hope you are not in charge of any decision making or accounts!

You don't seem to understand falling incomes in the private sector means less money to pay your salary.

whhhoooooooooooosssssssssshhhhhhhhhh

[Deleted User]

fliball123 wrote: »

The facts are I am not paying a pension for anyone in the private sector bar my own. The same cannot be said about public servants thats a fact and unfair as I cant afford to put by for my own.

your troubles are your troubles

dont come looking at me

fliball123

barneystinson wrote: »

OK, that addressed a fraction of my post.

Are you done, not bothering with the hard bits, or will we just park the past, and the policies you wanted to implement the last time that would probably have caused massive harm?

Why should they pay the full cost themselves though? When you compare the public sector to the private sector, the appropriate comparison is to large private sector organisations that try to retain staff, not to your local cafe, or the call centre up the road.

Have a look at this link, maybe you will realise that you are being completely unrealistic in what you said there, and come back to me: https://www.iapf.ie/News/PressReleases/default.aspx?month=5&year=2018&id=47#:~:text=The%20employer%20will%20usually%20pay,somewhere%20between%205%25%2D12%25.

The facts are the there are a lot less pensions in the private sector than in the public sector. Someone in the private sector who has a pension is nearly always a defined contribution. So what age are ps allowed retire to get their pension again by the time this clusterphuck and brexit completes I will be lucky to get my OAP at 80 with the way the government keep putting the age up. Will the government go and raid the private pension pot again like last time?

The facts are I am not paying a pension for anyone in the private sector bar my own. The same cannot be said about public servants thats a fact and unfair as I cant afford to put by for my own.

barneystinson

fliball123 wrote: »

To start with I wouldnt be giving pay rises , if things get back to normal in the private sector as in low levels on welfare I would leave things as they are but if there is a high % then there will have to cuts the numbers dont add up. To start I would give the PS an option of opting out of their pension or to pay the full cost themselves that would be a start

OK, that addressed a fraction of my post.

Are you done, not bothering with the hard bits, or will we just park the past, and the policies you wanted to implement the last time that would probably have caused massive harm?

fliball123 wrote: »

To start I would give the PS an option of opting out of their pension or to pay the full cost themselves that would be a start

Why should they pay the full cost themselves though? When you compare the public sector to the private sector, the appropriate comparison is to large private sector organisations that try to retain staff, not to your local cafe, or the call centre up the road.

Have a look at this link, maybe you will realise that you are being completely unrealistic in what you said there, and come back to me: https://www.iapf.ie/News/PressReleases/default.aspx?month=5&year=2018&id=47#:~:text=The%20employer%20will%20usually%20pay,somewhere%20between%205%25%2D12%25.

fliball123

Sinzo wrote: »

Thanks for your contribution Fliball. It was very succinct..

Your welcome to be honest I would like the environment to be better but it is what it is and the country is in trouble and need must

Sinzo

fliball123 wrote: »

To start with I wouldnt be giving pay rises , if things get back to normal in the private sector as in low levels on welfare I would leave things as they are but if there is a high % then there will have to cuts the numbers dont add up. To start I would give the PS an option of opting out of their pension or to pay the full cost themselves that would be a start

Thanks for your contribution Fliball. It was very succinct..

barneystinson

oyvey wrote: »

Not saying the public service should be cut, but I don't think it should be completely off the table if we're all looking at cutbacks and redundancies.

Has somebody said they should be?

If they did, they're being a bit silly IMHO.

If things get bad enough then the state will have to make cuts. They did so the last time round, and I think the relatively quick recovery (relative to how deep in the sh1t we were) bears out the decisions at the time. And those cuts were done, ultimately, with the agreement / grudging acceptance of public sector workers.

Most public sector workers, just like most of the population in general, are capable of being quite pragmatic when they have to be.

Just like most people outside of the private sector don't begrudge the bejaysus out of the pay and conditions of public sector workers, most of the time i.e. when times are good and private sector wages are rising faster than public sector wages (which is fine and to be expected, because public sector workers know that they have chosen to work in a lower risk environment and therefore that's a price they pay to have that security).

Of course, there will always be people who can't wrap their heads around averages and make nonsense statements like "the public sector's wages are 30% higher than the private sector", without the intellectual honesty to stop for a second and think about the plain stupidity of trying to compare:

1. the average of the pay of every public doctor, nurse, hospital porter, services officer, clerical officer, executive officer, higher executive officer, assistant principal officer, principal officer, assistant secretary, deputy secretary, secretary general, fireman, garda, teacher, SNA,

versus

2. the average of the pay of every supermarket worker, IT developer, hotel worker, electrician, car salesman, solicitor, apprentice blocklayer, chef, bank manager, deli assistant, factory manager etc...

I'm not sure what we can do about them - if they lack either the intelligence to grasp the inherent ridiculousness of that as a starting proposition, or the basic integrity to start from a more sensible jumping off point, then there may not be much to be done, other than calmly point out the nonsense as it arises. Like you'd deal with a hysterical small child really.

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Except while bailing them out you were sucking at the government tit at the same time... :pac:

We all know you were the one sucking at the teet Enf of Honesty.. I was working away trying to be productive and getting paid a reduced salary for it.... I wonder what you were at at the time?

fliball123

barneystinson wrote: »

Ah jez, how's it going Fliball, haven't seen ya since the last recession, it must've been a tough few years on you, waiting in the wings sharpening your rhetoric and your axe, waiting for the next one to land. Did you branch out, learn an instrument or take up hill walking, I hope you did.

Remind me how much the implementation of Flibonomics would've cut the public sector pay bill by, during the last recession?

To make a meaningful impact would require substantial % pay reductions.

What areas would you have cut, and by how much?

What would the knock on consequences be, in terms of the likelihood of industrial action and the cost of that to the economy?

How many people would just cash in their chips and retire, saving current wages to the extent that some roles would go unfilled (although even the most pigheaded person would acknowledge that some roles will still need to be filled), bringing forward the payment of their lump sums and pensions.

Remind me about your plans for welfare during that recession as well, how much were we going to cut off that, during an unprecedented economic slump, without severely damaging the fabric of our society.

To start with I wouldnt be giving pay rises , if things get back to normal in the private sector as in low levels on welfare I would leave things as they are but if there is a high % then there will have to cuts the numbers dont add up. To start I would give the PS an option of opting out of their pension or to pay the full cost themselves that would be a start

Sinzo

oyvey wrote: »

Isn't that crazy though? When **** hits the fan financially the only response is to drain the area's that generate the national income harder, to the point that they may collapse.

It's like having a hole in your bathtub, and instead of plugging the hole you just turn the tap on further.

Hi Ovey.. can you explain your point a bit further please.. I'm interested in what you have to say...

Sinzo

barneystinson wrote: »

Ah jez, how's it going Fliball, haven't seen ya since the last recession, it must've been a tough few years on you, waiting in the wings sharpening your rhetoric and your axe, waiting for the next one to land. Did you branch out, learn an instrument or take up hill walking, I hope you did.

Remind me how much the implementation of Flibonomics would've cut the public sector pay bill by, during the last recession?

To make a meaningful impact would require substantial % pay reductions.

What areas would you have cut, and by how much?

What would the knock on consequences be, in terms of the likelihood of industrial action and the cost of that to the economy?

How many people would just cash in their chips and retire, saving current wages to the extent that some roles would go unfilled (although even the most pigheaded person would acknowledge that some roles will still need to be filled), bringing forward the payment of their lump sums and pensions.

Remind me about your plans for welfare during that recession as well, how much were we going to cut off that, during an unprecedented economic slump, without severely damaging the fabric of our society.

Flibalomics.... this sounds interesting... ha ha .. tell us more. We will have to get Dishonest Enda to help us out here!

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

I don't think you know what the words "already established" mean, and thanks for admitting you're a leech on society.

I'm a net contributer to the state finances, you're a drain on them...

I contribute to society. I work in return for a decent wage. I pay the taxes that subsidise you, your business and your pension and then I spend money on your goods and services (well probably not your goods and services because I try not to deal with sharks)..

I am not a leech on society. I give my services to society in return for a wage. I pay taxes on my income (at a higher rate than you) and after 40 years I get a pension.

Sharks like you prefer to profiteer on the common man and take everything for your own good without a care for anyone else..

barneystinson

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Haven't you heard? It's 30% higher wages

I'm confused, can you explain to me what you mean by this bit please? Genuine question.

barneystinson

fliball123 wrote: »

You mean we all bailed out the banks to the tune of 60 billion and yet the debt was 200billion for the period of the last recession the other 140billion was for our redicously high levels of public pay & pensions and welfare, we had to borrow about a 140 billion over the course of the recession to pay this, thats why there were cuts in 2008/2010 so now this year alone the deficit will be increasing by 30 billion if we have a second wave and have to shut down again you will be getting big cuts it is not sustainable to be paying what we are paying at the moment

Ah jez, how's it going Fliball, haven't seen ya since the last recession, it must've been a tough few years on you, waiting in the wings sharpening your rhetoric and your axe, waiting for the next one to land. Did you branch out, learn an instrument or take up hill walking, I hope you did.

Remind me how much the implementation of Flibonomics would've cut the public sector pay bill by, during the last recession?

To make a meaningful impact would require substantial % pay reductions.

What areas would you have cut, and by how much?

What would the knock on consequences be, in terms of the likelihood of industrial action and the cost of that to the economy?

How many people would just cash in their chips and retire, saving current wages to the extent that some roles would go unfilled (although even the most pigheaded person would acknowledge that some roles will still need to be filled), bringing forward the payment of their lump sums and pensions.

Remind me about your plans for welfare during that recession as well, how much were we going to cut off that, during an unprecedented economic slump, without severely damaging the fabric of our society.

oyvey

EndaHonesty wrote: »

I don't think you know what the words "already established" mean, and thanks for admitting you're a leech on society.

I'm a net contributer to the state finances, you're a drain on them...

Isn't that crazy though? When **** hits the fan financially the only response is to drain the area's that generate the national income harder, to the point that they may collapse.

It's like having a hole in your bathtub, and instead of plugging the hole you just turn the tap on further.

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Haven't you heard? It's 30% higher wages AND guaranteed employment AND gold-plated defined benefit pensions AND their worth it...

You need to change your name to something more suitable.. honest you are not.. u get your own defined benefits pension for as little as 500 per annum... that's more gold plated than my pension..

Generally we are better paid on average than the private sector. Do you save lives every day? Can you nurse a palliative patient ?
Have you got the cajunas to chase criminals? Btw you must be earning multiples of an average workers wages so you might want to keep quiet!! Your not in a position to preach or be jealous...

If you were qualified enough or brave enough or caring enough (which it appears you are not) then I bet you would be looking g for a decent wage..and not the minimum wage you like to pay your victims, I mean, employees...

If the economy goes down the tubes we will all be screwed you, me and my granny! And your cushty private pension will have bit the dust.... maybe no one will have any pension worth talking about.

If there is a recession then public jobs and cuts are on the cards... it's a new era... so dont necessarily judge the future based on the past..

It will be MAD .. mutually assured destruction... and the only winners will be the 1 percent who own 40 percent of the wealth.. they will just get richer.. that's the way capitalism works.. the rich get richer.. you should know... you like to live by that ethos...

Ha ha. That was a funny side track..

Well dishonesty.. I think you should take a deep breath and smell the Rose's..

EndaHonesty

Sinzo wrote: »

Listen ... it's already established that you are just as much of a leech on society .. so I m not too concerned about what you have to say..

I don't think you know what the words "already established" mean, and thanks for admitting you're a leech on society.

I'm a net contributer to the state finances, you're a drain on them...

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Except while bailing them out you were sucking at the government tit at the same time... :pac:

Listen ... it's already established that you are just as much of a leech on society .. so I m not too concerned about what you have to say..

EndaHonesty

oyvey wrote: »

Not saying the public service should be cut, but I don't think it should be completely off the table if we're all looking at cutbacks and redundancies.

Haven't you heard? It's 30% higher wages AND guaranteed employment AND gold-plated defined benefit pensions AND their worth it...

EndaHonesty

Sinzo wrote: »

The same time you did!!

Except while bailing them out you were sucking at the government tit at the same time... :pac:

fliball123

Sinzo wrote: »

The same time you did!!

You mean we all bailed out the banks to the tune of 60 billion and yet the debt was 200billion for the period of the last recession the other 140billion was for our redicously high levels of public pay & pensions and welfare, we had to borrow about a 140 billion over the course of the recession to pay this, thats why there were cuts in 2008/2010 so now this year alone the deficit will be increasing by 30 billion if we have a second wave and have to shut down again you will be getting big cuts it is not sustainable to be paying what we are paying at the moment

oyvey

Not saying the public service should be cut, but I don't think it should be completely off the table if we're all looking at cutbacks and redundancies.