Public service pay cut?

Sinzo

gmisk wrote: »

I think IT could be a lot stronger there is a massive over reliance on contractors. I am looking for ICT staff currently so I know believe me. But your right the specialist ICT panels should hopefully help.

Of course the job security is a big draw for CS, as is the generally decent work lift balance etc.
But at least in the ICT side of things you are likely sacrificing a higher wage (well in my experience). I worked as a contractor for quite a while before CS.

At the end of the day the vast majority of all workers are just trying to get by.. everyone seems to think that everyone else has it easy without looking at the nuances and pros and cons of each situation. We all have advantages and disadvantages to our situations....

gmisk

Sinzo wrote: »

At the end of the day the vast majority of all workers are just trying to get by.. everyone seems to think that everyone else has it easy without looking at the nuances and pros and cons of each situation. We all have advantages and disadvantages to our situations....

Ah of course totally agree.
We are all just trying to live our lives and make enough money to keep things ticking over and hopefully tuck away some dough for a rainy day and maybe a pension.

People look at teachers and go sure they get massive amounts of holidays bla bla bla...but you couldn't pay me enough money to deal with a room full of kids Monday to Friday!

Some people say Gardai are overpaid, they get allowances I suppose for unsociable hours, extra shifts. I wouldnt begrudge them a decent wage given the things and some of the people they have to deal with. Again I couldn't do that job in a million years.

Sinzo

gmisk wrote: »

Ah of course totally agree.
We are all just trying to live our lives and make enough money to keep things ticking over and hopefully tuck away some dough for a rainy day and maybe a pension.

People look at teachers and go sure they get massive amounts of holidays bla bla bla...but you couldn't pay me enough money to deal with a room full of kids Monday to Friday!

Some people say Gardai are overpaid, they get allowances I suppose for unsociable hours, extra shifts. I wouldnt begrudge them a decent wage given the things and some of the people they have to deal with. Again I couldn't do that job in a million years.

Totally agree. Not to say they are not well paid but it is public service and those jobs are not as easy to do as some detractors might have us believe.
Of course everyone will have to take a pay cut if the recession is not a short one which I seriously doubt it will be. Hard times could be just around the corner and of course the CS will have to be cut to help reduce the national debt..
I hope it's not going to be too bad and I do have extra sympathy for those struggling in the private sector. It's not easy for them especially at times like this..

Jucifer

salonfire wrote: »

No you're not. You're not worth it.

You got lucky in the process of recruitment for the Gardai. You probably didn't even make it in the first time and had to try a few recruitment competitions.
If you didn't make it, there were plenty of others just as capable as you who could take your place.

Others still who would take your place and do so for much less - see the new entrants. Therefore if someone is willing to take your place for much less than you, you are not worth it.

There is no shortage of suitable applicants for your job.

Since you are a Garda, you probably are limited academically as well, so probably would not be a doctor or professor as an alternative. You would be working for very much less than what you get now.

If it boils down to it that could be said for most people and most jobs. If you (not you specifically, a general you) get hit by a bus on the way into work there might be a bit of disruption while people try to figure out what you actually did other than say the right things at meetings. Fairly quickly they would find someone just as good as bull****ting their way through the day as you. and believe me there are no shortage of people who would be able to take your place.

At least that is what I tell whenever I start to feel a bit important in work.

id note that contracting in expertise that stays current and trained at its own expense for specific dev/specialist work is defensible as long as that work is well scoped, managed and understood by the dept, and good handover/documentation practices exist

is this the reality always? nah, but ive worked plenty of jobs public and private in plenty of contacts and anyone that tries to tell me theres perfection anywhere is a cod artist

Sinzo

Jucifer wrote: »

If it boils down to it that could be said for most people and most jobs. If you (not you specifically, a general you) get hit by a bus on the way into work there might be a bit of disruption while people try to figure out what you actually did other than say the right things at meetings. Fairly quickly they would find someone just as good as bull****ting their way through the day as you. and believe me there are no shortage of people who would be able to take your place.

At least that is what I tell whenever I start to feel a bit important in work.

Its funny cause it's TRUE

Sinzo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

id note that contracting in expertise that stays current and trained at its own expense for specific dev/specialist work is defensible as long as that work is well scoped, managed and understood by the dept, and good handover/documentation practices exist

is this the reality always? nah, but ive worked plenty of jobs public and private in plenty of contacts and anyone that tries to tell me theres perfection anywhere is a cod artist

Yes exactly.. no one is holier than thou..

ParkRunner

There will be no pay cut this year anyway that has been decided. Moving away from the doom and gloom economic scenarios, there are a few emerging industries developing which will hopefully really take off and transform this country. The public and private sector are working hard together on these long term projects & who knows these pay “debates” could be confined to history if everyone works hard together to make this country realise its enormous potential.

mickuhaha

40k civil servants. About 45% are clerical officers. And is it 325000 in public service overall as another post mentioned earlier. So I would guess civil servants overall play a small part in the public service pay. This would make sense that the pay rate across the public service on average is higher as it could be put down to the large amount of specialised areas such as education much like in the private sector. I don't think anyone is going to cut medical staff wages now. Good help us if they tried to cut the teachers pay. They definitely wouldn't go back to work I. September.

fliball123

barneystinson wrote: »

Is that a no? I thought I asked you quite nicely.

It doesn't matter about any historical report I am being dragged away from the CURRENT situation and what will be happening. The pool of money needed to pay wages in the PS is being decimated so the spend side has to come down and its not just PS pay its their pension, welfare and capital spending projects will all have to take a hit.

The current figures and future forecasts don't add up. We can argue that the PS pensions are fine, which they are not we are getting robbed as the simple fact is the public sector do not cover the full cost of the financing of this pension, We can also argue the virtues of paying on average a lot more to public servants than what people in the private sector earn but leave those arguments aside..

Look at the figures and conditions

240 billion in debt by the end of the year
25% of people on the dole 20% of which were working are now no longer tax contributors but tax takers.
Monthly income vs expenditure for the year will be -30 Billion
Projections for next year are another 15Billion (provided we don't get a second wave)
On the 2nd wave very high likelihood of this happening and another lockdwon
Then a little sneaky fella called Brexit is looming large after this, no one knows how much this will set up back.

Now forgetting the tribal nature of public vs private

Under the above conditions and figures I do not think it is right to be increasing spending in any section. Even the covid payments will be tapered off and reducing and eventually stopped over the next number of months.

So there is no need to argue ps pay anymore its the current conditions that mean their pay will have to be cut maybe not this year but it will have to happen

barneystinson

fliball123 wrote: »

It doesn't matter about any historical report I am being dragged away from the CURRENT situation and what will be happening. The pool of money needed to pay wages in the PS is being decimated so the spend side has to come down and its not just PS pay its their pension, welfare and capital spending projects will all have to take a hit.

The current figures and future forecasts don't add up. We can argue that the PS pensions are fine, which they are not we are getting robbed as the simple fact is the public sector do not cover the full cost of the financing of this pension, We can also argue the virtues of paying on average a lot more to public servants than what people in the private sector earn but leave those arguments aside..

Look at the figures and conditions

240 billion in debt by the end of the year
25% of people on the dole 20% of which were working are now no longer tax contributors but tax takers.
Monthly income vs expenditure for the year will be -30 Billion
Projections for next year are another 15Billion (provided we don't get a second wave)
On the 2nd wave very high likelihood of this happening and another lockdwon
Then a little sneaky fella called Brexit is looming large after this, no one knows how much this will set up back.

Now forgetting the tribal nature of public vs private

Under the above conditions and figures I do not think it is right to be increasing spending in any section. Even the covid payments will be tapered off and reducing and eventually stopped over the next number of months.

So there is no need to argue ps pay anymore its the current conditions that mean their pay will have to be cut maybe not this year but it will have to happen

Your arrogance and closed mindedness is astounding. You have made your mind up that because this is happening now, then that must happen in the future, as if somehow only you've got the answers, and you have zero interest in actually engaging with anything that anyone else has to say, unless it agrees with your magic formula.

So, are you actually open to have a discussion, or are you only interested in blowing off steam and firing out rhetoric?

You still haven't answered my questions about how you'd have fixed things the last time round, by the way.

ParkRunner

fliball123 wrote: »

So there is no need to argue ps pay anymore its the current conditions that mean their pay will have to be cut maybe not this year but it will have to happen

It may have to happen, it may not. What probably will happen is no payrises for a while and a pause on increments with a recruitment & promotion ban at worst. If the economy really struggles after 2-3 years paycuts may happen but it’s not inevitable. Let’s just see how it develops

kippy

ParkRunner wrote: »

It may have to happen, it may not. What probably will happen is no payrises for a while and a pause on increments with a recruitment & promotion ban at worst. If the economy really struggles after 2-3 years paycuts may happen but it’s not inevitable. Let’s just see how it develops

Increased taxes and reduced wages are an inevitability. That and some form of international debt restructuring. How much of each is anyone's guess at the minute.

Dav010

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I continue to blame the private sector because the property bubble was 100% private. From the banks to the construction industry, it was all private companies and private staff. More importantly, it was private businesses making millions for their private sector owners who used private accountants to pay minimum tax.

Wow.

There are many reasons why the last recession hit us so badly, but among them was borrowing and property speculation. How you think that was 100% confined to the private sector is astonishing considering how much we now know about the what and why. Increased wages fuelled inflation and public sector workers also invested in property, borrowing based on good wages and job security. Do you honestly believe that public servants didn’t buy any properties 01 to 08 ?

Also, just in case you aren’t aware of this, all businesses try to legally minimise taxes , you wouldn’t be much of a business person if you didn’t.

ParkRunner

kippy wrote: »

Increased taxes and reduced wages are an inevitability. That and some form of international debt restructuring. How much of each is anyone's guess at the minute.

Reduced pay bill yes, reduced wages I’m not so sure as it doesn’t translate into massive net savings to the State. With FF back at the wheel and a new pay deal going to be negotiated soon it makes for an interesting few months ahead.

Dav010

ParkRunner wrote: »

Reduced pay bill yes, reduced wages I’m not so sure as it doesn’t translate into massive net savings to the State. With FF back at the wheel and a new pay deal going to be negotiated soon it makes for an interesting few months ahead.

It’s not just about net savings, it’s about optics. Rewarding public servants who have job security with wage increases while so many private sector employees lose their jobs/take forced wage reductions, is not a good optic for any government.

Personally, I would give nurses a huge increase, all other public servants should get a decrease in line with private sector average. Of course we know neither will happen.

mickuhaha

I would guess just looking back at how the government dealt with the last recession. I would guess that the coming budget will hit everyone with an increase in tax and I would think that the PS wouldn't dare give up a cent and the government know this.

ParkRunner

Dav010 wrote: »

It’s not just about net savings, it’s about optics. Rewarding public servants who have job security with wage increases while so many private sector employees lose their jobs/take forced wage reductions, is not a good optic for any government.

Personally, I would give nurses a huge increase, all other public servants should get a decrease in line with private sector average. Of course we know neither will happen.

I’m actually surprised the 2% payrise is going ahead in October and I don’t think there would have been too much pushback if it didn’t happen. Anecdotally there will be lots of retirements happening after the payrise kicks in so there will be lump sum payments due then also. Canceling or even delaying the payrise would have made economic sense, but politicians decide these things.

TheDavester

ParkRunner wrote: »

I’m actually surprised the 2% payrise is going ahead in October and I don’t think there would have been too much pushback if it didn’t happen. Anecdotally there will be lots of retirements happening after the payrise kicks in so there will be lump sum payments due then also. Canceling or even delaying the payrise would have made economic sense, but politicians decide these things.

as a c/o who'se just barely earning more than the 350 covid payment, i wouldn't object to deffering the increase till its a suitable time...i refuse to take a cut as i had to go in to the office daily while others got time off... i think myself and other risked enough by going in, our work load in the office im in increased and were not "taking another one for the team" again.....how about get money back off the companies who availed of this payment (ikea are doing this), take the apple money thats owed to them, stop giving RTE money and tell them to make the tough cuts..

Dav010

TheDavester wrote: »

as a c/o who'se just barely earning more than the 350 covid payment, i wouldn't object to deffering the increase till its a suitable time...i refuse to take a cut as i had to go in to the office daily while others got time off... i think myself and other risked enough by going in, our work load in the office im in increased and were not "taking another one for the team" again.....how about get money back off the companies who availed of this payment (ikea are doing this), take the apple money thats owed to them, stop giving RTE money and tell them to make the tough cuts..

Companies availed of it to keep employees in their jobs. If it wasn’t available, many more employees would have been let go, making them pay it back would devastate many businesses which are just about surviving.

mickuhaha

Dav010 wrote: »

Companies availed of it to keep employees in their jobs. If it wasn’t available, many more employees would have been let go, making them pay it back would devastate many businesses which are just about surviving.

Sadly, If companies are insolvent they should not continue to operate. Downsizing a workforce is part of dealing with a reduction in demand. I am of the opinion that this can't save jobs.

Dav010

mickuhaha wrote: »

Sadly, If companies are insolvent they should not continue to operate. Downsizing a workforce is part of dealing with a reduction in demand. I am of the opinion that this can't save jobs.

Very true, unfortunately a lot of local businesses will not be reopening where I live. But the wage subsidy has/will help others to pay staff so that they continue to trade from what is effectively a standing start. These too would have gone to the wall had it not been for the subsidy. Make no mistake, the subsidy has helped to avoid hundreds of thousands of temporary/permanent job losses that would have been inevitable without it. I disagree with your opinion, I believe it has helped to save many jobs.

Treppen

Sinzo wrote: »

How do you know? Your pretty good at criticising someone you dont even know..
Gardai, as far as I know, learn on the job after they leave Templemore. That's the best way to learn.
It's easy to say a job is easy or it should be paid less when you look at it from the outside. Your perceptions may only be that.. perceptions.
Walk in a Gardas shoes and then you will e in a position to give an accurate analysis..

What do you work at yourself as a matter of interest??

I think the term is "professional expert in everyone else's job"

Maoltuile

Dav010 wrote: »

all other public servants should get a decrease in line with private sector average. Of course we know neither will happen.

My last two state sector jobs have paid me below what I'd get paid in private businesses. And I'm still paid less than what I was paid a decade ago, because much of those cuts were never undone (with connivance of the Labour Party bosses at the top of unions like IMPACT).

Maoltuile

TheDavester wrote: »

as a c/o who'se just barely earning more than the 350 covid payment, i wouldn't object to deffering the increase till its a suitable time

It's not an increase, just a bit of restoration of the cut pay from a decade ago.

Dav010

Maoltuile wrote: »

My last two state sector jobs have paid me below what I'd get paid in private businesses. And I'm still paid less than what I was paid a decade ago, because much of those cuts were never undone (with connivance of the Labour Party bosses at the top of unions like IMPACT).

I know there are many factors to consider when moving jobs, is the security that goes with your current job one of those considerations? You may not be paid as well, but at times like this, job security is enormously important, that is something private sector workers don’t always have.

Dav010

Maoltuile wrote: »

It's not an increase, just a bit of restoration of the cut pay from a decade ago.

It’s an increase. You took a pay cut a decade ago just like everybody else.

Maoltuile

Dav010 wrote: »

It’s an increase. You took a pay cut a decade ago just like everybody else.

It's not an increase. Croke Park had explicitly said that there would be pay restoration when finances improved (there have been no pay increases since, and nothing to keep up with inflation). Of course, this doesn't cover maneouvers like the so-called 'pension levy'

Maoltuile

Dav010 wrote: »

I know there are many factors to consider when moving jobs, is the security that goes with your current job one of those considerations? You may not be paid as well, but at times like this, job security is enormously important, that is something private sector workers don’t always have.

Pay is pay. I'm certain that the types who'd excuse it's removal will also subsequently be found excusing taking away pensions and 'security'.

Dav010

Maoltuile wrote: »

Pay is pay. I'm certain that the types who'd excuse it's removal will also subsequently be found excusing taking away pensions and 'security'.

There is no doubt that being able to see what the market will pay you by moving jobs/negotiating pay has its benefits in the private sector, but private sector employees are also more vulnerable to market forces. Therefore, we also had pay cuts on top of job losses, with no agreements that pay would be restored.

You could say the security is a trade off for lower wages, or, higher private sector wages are a trade off for less job security. But personally I don’t think public servants should have both higher wages and job security.

Pay is pay, your pay is scheduled to increase at a time when private sector pay is likely to decrease.