Public service pay cut?

runawaybishop

Dav010 wrote: »

There is no doubt that being able to see what the market will pay you by moving jobs/negotiating pay has its benefits in the private sector, but private sector employees are also more vulnerable to market forces. Therefore, we also had pay cuts on top of job losses, with no agreements that pay would be restored.

You could say the security is a trade off for lower wages, or, higher private sector wages are a trade off for less job security. But personally I don’t think public servants should have both higher wages and job security.

Pay is pay, your pay is scheduled to increase at a time when private sector pay is likely to decrease.

Public servants do not have higher pay. Like for like, they are paid less (significantly less in management or IT). The vast majority of them start off on 23k.

Geuze

Dav010 wrote: »

It’s an increase. You took a pay cut a decade ago just like everybody else.

Cuts to basic pay rates in the private sector were not common during 2009-2012.

Cuts to bonuses, overtimes, extras - yes.

But there were few cuts to basic pay rates outside the PS.

Sinzo

Dav010 wrote:

Personally, I would give nurses a huge increase, all other public servants should get a decrease in line with private sector average. Of course we know neither will happen.

Well it already happened in 2009 so why do you think it wont happen again. If the country doesn't start to open up again or there is a second outbreak or Brexit results in reestablishing border check points or there is a global recession, collapse of the euro or even just a change in the way we live and work.. working from home..e commerce etc..... we are in strange and scary new times..
So anything is on the cards ... massive unemployment, businesses closing and going bankrupt and therefore public pay cuts and cuts in public spending..
Its obvious that public spending can become a target..
We live in hope however that things will improve.. unemployment will drop back to 3.5%, businesses will be profitable again and hopefully no cuts in public services or wages...

Dav010

Geuze wrote: »

Cuts to basic pay rates in the private sector were not common during 2009-2012.

Cuts to bonuses, overtimes, extras - yes.

But there were few cuts to basic pay rates outside the PS.

https://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/publicprivatepay.pdf

PS enjoyed a slight premium on average.

never_mind

Lol.

barneystinson

Dav010 wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/publicprivatepay.pdf

PS enjoyed a slight premium on average.

You do realise that that paper supports what Geuze said, not what you said?

The tables in it show the pay premium falling across all categories and quantiles of earnings, from 2009 to 2010, in other words, the pay cuts to the public sector were substantially more than cuts in the private sector.

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

Wow.

There are many reasons why the last recession hit us so badly, but among them was borrowing and property speculation. How you think that was 100% confined to the private sector is astonishing considering how much we now know about the what and why. Increased wages fuelled inflation and public sector workers also invested in property, borrowing based on good wages and job security. Do you honestly believe that public servants didn’t buy any properties 01 to 08 ?

Also, just in case you aren’t aware of this, all businesses try to legally minimise taxes , you wouldn’t be much of a business person if you didn’t.

Sorry no, up can't blame the poor sap that had to take out a 100% mortgage to get on the property ladder. That's victim blaming.

Property bubble was a private sector creation via PRIVATE banks, PRIVATE builders and PRIVATE investees.

The collapse was a collapse of PRIVATE banks that needed an immediate injection of public funds to continue to operate.

Of course salaries rose. Which ones first eh? PRIVATE sector ones.

Companies reduce tax, they do indeed whereas the grunts shoveling the **** for them pay up at full rates while the millionaire PRIVATE workers and bosses milk every penny while using loopholes to pay sweet FA taxes.

Read the tax defaulters list, private sector names.

Read the top 100 rich list, private enterprise

Read the top ten paying careers, private sector.

Now I fully realise the minimum wage people are also private sector. I know how averages work but if others aren't going to be impartial, why should I?

I'm still waiting for you to agree pay increases for doctors, engineers, solicitors, architects and software developers in the public sector. Just so they meet the private sector pay. Let's be fair after all.

(Also curious what prison officers and Gardai should be compared to)

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

It’s not just about net savings, it’s about optics. Rewarding public servants who have job security with wage increases while so many private sector employees lose their jobs/take forced wage reductions, is not a good optic for any government.

Personally, I would give nurses a huge increase, all other public servants should get a decrease in line with private sector average. Of course we know neither will happen.

This saintifying of nurses. What about the healthcare attendants who are in even closer contact with patients. And porters and doctors and physios and all other public servants who have been working on the front lines. Ambulances staff etc.

Dav010

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This saintifying of nurses. What about the healthcare attendants who are in even closer contact with patients. And porters and doctors and physios and all other public servants who have been working on the front lines. Ambulances staff etc.

Yip, I’d give it to them too. But I would not give it to teachers, gardai, administrators etc.

runawaybishop

Dav010 wrote: »

Yip, I’d give it to them too. But I would not give it to teachers, gardai, administrators etc.

The COs who worked their arses off to process unprecedented claims so people could put food on the table are all 'admins'. You think cutting their starting pay of 23k is a good idea?

Dav010

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Sorry no, up can't blame the poor sap that had to take out a 100% mortgage to get on the property ladder. That's victim blaming.

Property bubble was a private sector creation via PRIVATE banks, PRIVATE builders and PRIVATE investees.

The collapse was a collapse of PRIVATE banks that needed an immediate injection of public funds to continue to operate.

Of course salaries rose. Which ones first eh? PRIVATE sector ones.

Companies reduce tax, they do indeed whereas the grunts shoveling the **** for them pay up at full rates while the millionaire PRIVATE workers and bosses milk every penny while using loopholes to pay sweet FA taxes.

Read the tax defaulters list, private sector names.

Read the top 100 rich list, private enterprise

Read the top ten paying careers, private sector.

Now I fully realise the minimum wage people are also private sector. I know how averages work but if others aren't going to be impartial, why should I?

I'm still waiting for you to agree pay increases for doctors, engineers, solicitors, architects and software developers in the public sector. Just so they meet the private sector pay. Let's be fair after all.

(Also curious what prison officers and Gardai should be compared to)

You don’t think PSs invested in second properties?

How many PSs lost their job this year? Do you think that number is comparable to how many private sector employees lost theirs?

Dav010

runawaybishop wrote: »

The COs who worked their arses off to process unprecedented claims so people could put food on the table are all 'admins'. You think cutting their starting pay of 23k is a good idea?

If private sector workers on equivalent pay are getting wage cuts/losing jobs, I see no reason why PS’s should escape that.

runawaybishop

Dav010 wrote: »

If private sector workers on equivalent pay are getting wage cuts/losing jobs, I see no reason why PS’s should escape that.

They are getting wage cuts because there is no work for them, why would you cut wages of people working more than ever? It's already challenging to get people into management and specialist roles as it is.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ambulances staff etc.

Paramedics.

Dav010

runawaybishop wrote: »

They are getting wage cuts because there is no work for them, why would you cut wages of people working more than ever? It's already challenging to get people into management and specialist roles as it is.

PS workers get pay rises irrespective of individual performance or whether they are busy or not.

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

You don’t think PSs invested in second properties?

How many PSs lost their job this year? Do you think that number is comparable to how many private sector employees lost theirs?

What's your point? People who no longer find themselves in need have lost their jobs. Not that many by the way. Most have or will return to work successfully.

What area of the national infrastructure is currently overloaded with unneeded staff?

Dav010

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

What's your point? People who no longer find themselves in need have lost their jobs. Not that many by the way. Most have or will return to work successfully.

What area of the national infrastructure is currently overloaded with unneeded staff?

How many PSs lost their jobs since the middle of March? Current rate of unemployment is 26%.

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

PS workers get pay rises irrespective of individual performance or whether they are busy or not.

Is this job security suddenly new information to you? Were you actually old enough to have worked in the Celtic tiger and suffered the crash? Did you lose your job? Your house?

The crash was over ten years ago, that's ten years to apply for the public sector. You didn't. There's a reason you didn't. What is it?

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

How many PSs lost their jobs since the middle of March?

None. Because we have been working our asses off for the benefit of society. Who do you think processed your free money?

So again to avoid being considered a troll, what area is overloaded with staff doing nothing?

Dav010

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Is this job security suddenly new information to you? Were you actually old enough to have worked in the Celtic tiger and suffered the crash? Did you lose your job? Your house?

The crash was over ten years ago, that's ten years to apply for the public sector. You didn't. There's a reason you didn't. What is it?

No. Yes. No.

I’m self employed and a business owner.

runawaybishop

Dav010 wrote: »

PS workers get pay rises irrespective of individual performance or whether they are busy or not.

How else would you retain staff? Remember also they don't get bonuses.

Let me assure you the COs in social protection are not idle, why should they get a pay cut?

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

No. Yes. No.

I’m self employed and a business owner.

WTF. And you see fit to criticise? I'm gobsmacked.

Less tax paid than I pay, less prsi, less USC per euro income.

I suppose when things are good you profit share with your customers right? Am I a customer?

Again, what department is overstocked with staff? What department has no work?

What are you comparing all the public sector industries do and roll you give the aforementioned staff a raise to reflect what they could earn on the private sector?

Dav010

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

WTF. And you see fit to criticise? I'm gobsmacked.

Less tax paid than I pay, less prsi, less USC per euro income.

I suppose when things are good you profit share with your customers right? Am I a customer?

Again, what department is overstocked with staff? What department has no work?

What are you comparing all the public sector industries do and roll you give the aforementioned staff a raise to reflect what they could earn on the private sector?

Not criticise, what have you done to deserve a pay rise that a private sector worker hasn’t? Not many in the private sector will be getting pay rises this year, many will get reductions, and as I have said, not many of the 26% who now find themselves unemployed are PSs

In relation to taxes, not just income tax, I doubt you pay more tax than I do.

runawaybishop

Dav010 wrote: »

Not criticise, what have you done to deserve a pay rise that a private sector worker hasn’t? Not many in the private sector will be getting pay rises this year, many will get reductions, and as I have said, not many of the 26% who now find themselves unemployed are PSs

In relation to taxes, not just income tax, I doubt you pay more tax than I do.

PS employees get increments to stop them all leaving for the private sector. It's impractical to individually reward so many employees, hence the scales and increments.

Sinzo

Dav010 wrote: »

Not criticise, what have you done to deserve a pay rise that a private sector worker hasn’t? Not many in the private sector will be getting pay rises this year, many will get reductions, and as I have said, not many of the 26% who now find themselves unemployed are PSs

In relation to taxes, not just income tax, I doubt you pay more tax than I do.

In fairness Davo. I think public sector workers are willing to forgo the pay increase in the public interest.

You have to give some credit to the sterling work of our health service workers and the civil service during this crisis. They have been worked off their feet in certain sections and have done a great job.

I think your point about job security and pay is a bit simplistic.

Job security, imo, is necessary in order to protect the integrity, skill base and qualifications within the public service. This is in the interests of the common good and I see it as an asset to the people. As such there is a value attached to these workers that is rightfully deserving of decent pay and conditions.

The functions of the public service are not easily comparable with those of the private sector. The ethos of public service is focused on running a modern infrastructure and an apparatus of state that ensures the smoother running of the State in the interests of all its citizenry.

The general bottom line of the private sector is profit oriented. As a consequence the focus of most businesses is to create wealth for the owners and shareholders. Consequently it is in the interests of business owners to keep the wages of employees as low as possible. The cause of poor pay in the private sector is generally a product of supply and demand.

Therefore, I think that although the public service may be facing pay cuts if things dont improve, there is a always a critical mass of manpower required to continue the operations of the State.

i cannot believe this has to be said every ten pages tbh

Sinzo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

i cannot believe this has to be said every ten pages tbh

I think it's just a matter of being reasonable. The public perception on the public service is that we are overpaid and under worked.

Sinzo

Sinzo wrote: »

I think it's just a matter of being reasonable. The public perception of the public on the public service is that we are overpaid and under worked.

ive taken the time a few times to make similar points- quite recently too

theres a limit to what you can remain reasonable in the face of, and theres posters in this thread that are either only trolling or genuinely hold a view so simplistic of the world outside their heads that it does them very little credit.

fair play to you if you manage to penetrate to any extent tho, id give you a pay rise for your service

gmisk

Dav010 wrote: »

PS workers get pay rises irrespective of individual performance or whether they are busy or not.

Not true
Any department I have been in if you don't pass your PMDs you don't get an increment.

Sinzo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

ive taken the time a few times to make similar points- quite recently too

theres a limit to what you can remain reasonable in the face of, and theres posters in this thread that are either only trolling or genuinely hold a view so simplistic of the world outside their heads that it does them very little credit.

fair play to you if you manage to penetrate to any extent tho, id give you a pay rise for your service

Yes I agree, but on the street, I find that many people feel free to speak in a pejorative manner because I work for government. It's amazing how ignorant they can be and it is a lot more common place than it should be. They make sloppy generalisations in relation to us... it's a classic refrain that we are overpaid incompetent and lazy.

Usually I have to argue our case on my own. At least in here there are plenty of posters who hold a more balanced view.

No one is pretending that we are perfect. Who is. We generally try our best, are well qualified and are performing well in return for decent pay and conditions but also with some pride in what we do and with the culture of putting our customers first..