Public service pay cut?

EndaHonesty

kippy wrote: »

Look at the caveats around the CSO figures.

Sinzo specifically asked for CSO figures...

Sinzo wrote: »

I would also prefer statistics from the CSO...

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

The figures are CSO figures. Are the CSO lying? :rolleyes:

EndaHonesty wrote: »

CSO figures via Ronan Lyons




http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/02/04/public-sector-pay-in-ireland-the-e50000-question-its-not-that-difficult/

And Ronan Lyons of course, in 2011, had no skin in any game!You do realise this was a decade ago and based on Ronans own take on CSO figures. He has probably included health services in it which will skew the figures the way he wanted to at the time..
The public sector have workers with degrees or higher at twice the ratio of the private sector. Therefore pay rates will certainly be affected by that.

We have already acknowledged that everything went mad during the Celtic Tiger. Benchmarking had a big affect on the rates of pay due to that.

We are now in a different era. The public sector numbers in iteland compare very favourably to the rest of Europe and is well below the EU average.

As I said before public service is in the interests of society at large. You benefit from it like everyone else.

Are you qualified to teach or to nurse a palliative patient? Are you prepared to chase criminals? If so, I bet ylud want a decent wage for it.

If you work in admin like many in the civil service then you would expect a decent wage. As explained already clerical officers are paid below the average industrial wage until they are nearly a decade in the job.

Average annual wages in euros Ireland 2001 - 2018
2018 47,605
2017 47,166
2016 46,403
2015 46,036
2014 45,311
2013 45,220
2012 46,377
2011 47,267
2010 51,275
2009 51,488
2008 47,628
2007 46,207
2006 44,830
2005 44,055
2004 42,092
2003 40,581
2002 39,258
2001 38,904

Sourse Statista.com.

So that's another example of how statistics come with terms and conditions to their collection and analysis..

Interested Observer

Deleted User wrote: »

So a doctor/radiographer etc should earn the same as average private sector earnings?

No? Being closer to the average doesn't mean every single public servant will earn the average. What are you on about?

EndaHonesty

An Oireachtas Report
1998-2007: Economic growth and increasing public pay expenditure

This first period saw unprecedented growth in both tax receipts and public pay expenditure. From 1998 to 2007, expenditure on pay increased by €10.8bn (145%). This growth was principally a result of increased pay rates (two-thirds of the increase between 2002 and 2007, for example, was the result of pay increases). Although increased overall numbers also played a role, it should be noted that during this period, numbers only increased by 38%

between 1998 and 2007 Public Sector earnings grew by 66%. At the same time, the Consumer Price Index rose by 39%

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/parliamentaryBudgetOffice/2018/2018-08-16_public-sector-pay-and-pensions-features-and-key-determinants_en.pdf

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

An Oireachtas Report
1998-2007: Economic growth and increasing public pay expenditure





https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/parliamentaryBudgetOffice/2018/2018-08-16_public-sector-pay-and-pensions-features-and-key-determinants_en.pdf

Ok Dishonest Enda.. we are now in 2020.. please check your calendar.. you will see it indicates that today's date is 03.07.2020. Now relax, stop thinking of the past and move on.

EndaHonesty

Sinzo wrote: »

Ok Dishonest Enda.. we are now in 2020.. please check your calendar.. you will see it indicates that today's date is 03.07.2020. Now relax, stop thinking of the past and move on.

A poster stated that public sector pay increased by 60% during the Celtic Tiger years. You started foaming at the mouth, called that poster a liar and went on an incoherent rant, as is your wont.

I simply provided proof of the increase, from several sources.

Now that you've obviously caught up after some vigorous "research", do you accept that public sector pay did indeed increase by over 60% during the years in question?

Sinzo wrote: »

PS pay rose by 60 percent during the Celtic Tiger? ... What a total lie.
I wish you would stop peddling utter rubbish.
You are making it up as you go..
I think you're a bit of a fantasist.
I will ask you to quote your sources - this should be interesting..

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

A poster stated that public sector pay increased by 60% during the Celtic Tiger years. You started foaming at the mouth, called that poster a liar and went on an incoherent rant, as you commonly do.

I simply provided proof of the increase, from several sources.

Now that you've obviously caught up after some vigorous "research", do you accept that public sector pay did indeed increase by over 60% during the years in question?

End of Honesty -
You quoted a figure of 59% increase in public service salaries between 2001 - 2006.
I have explained that the pay deals entered into by the government between 2001 and 2008 amounted to 38% for the public service - that is a period of 7 years - yet you are insisting that it was 59% in a smaller 5 year period within that period longer period.

I wasn't foaming at the mouth. I acknowledged that bench marking was in hindsight a big mistake but those gains were reversed during the downturn. The pension levy of 5% of pay was also introduced in 2009 to help bail out the economy after the private sector in the form of property developers, builders and the banks greedily tried to fleece the common worker during the property boom.

That extra 5% is still deducted albeit by another name as an addition to all public sector workers pension contributions.

So Enda, I hope you and Addaword can see it in your heart to forgive all those public service workers who are bleeding the country dry.

I would encourage you to look up publicjobs.ie and see how you get on - the gravy train could be only 2 or three interviews away. Polish up your degree and have a go, you never know your luck, sure all those public servant lads are as dumb as nails... you would surely rise to the top...

IPA...

• In recent years, the reliability of GDP data for Ireland
for comparative purposes is open to question, due to
the effects of the large scale of multinational company
activity in Ireland1. In 2017, the Central Statistics Office
developed a new indicator, GNI*, or modified GNI
(gross national income). Using this indicator, general
government expenditure as a share of the economy is
still below the European average in 2017, at 42 per cent.
Government expenditure as a share of the economy in Ireland is below the EU28 average
FIGURE 1 GENERAL GOVERNMENT EXPENDITURE AS SHARE OF GDP/GNI*
Source: Eurostat
7 John Fitzgerald (2016), Problems with the Irish National Accounts and Possible Solutions, Dublin: Central Statistics Office.

EndaHonesty

Sinzo wrote: »

End of Honesty -
You quoted a figure of 59% increase in public service salaries between 2001 - 2006.
I have explained that the pay deals entered into by the government between 2001 and 2008 amounted to 38% for the public service - that is a period of 7 years - yet you are insisting that it was 59% in a smaller 5 year period within that period longer period.

I wasn't foaming at the mouth. I acknowledged that bench marking was in hindsight a big mistake but those gains were reversed during the downturn. The pension levy of 5% of pay was also introduced in 2009 to help bail out the economy after the private sector in the form of property developers, builders and the banks greedily tried to fleece the common worker during the property boom.

That extra 5% is still deducted albeit by another name as an addition to all public sector workers pension contributions.

So Enda, I hope you and Addaword can see it in your heart to forgive all those public service workers who are bleeding the country dry.

I would encourage you to look up publicjobs.ie and see how you get on - the gravy train could be only 2 or three interviews away. Polish up your degree and have a go, you never know your luck, sure all those public servant lads are as dumb as nails... you would surely rise to the top...

IPA...

• In recent years, the reliability of GDP data for Ireland
for comparative purposes is open to question, due to
the effects of the large scale of multinational company
activity in Ireland1. In 2017, the Central Statistics Office
developed a new indicator, GNI*, or modified GNI
(gross national income). Using this indicator, general
government expenditure as a share of the economy is
still below the European average in 2017, at 42 per cent.
Government expenditure as a share of the economy in Ireland is below the EU28 average
FIGURE 1 GENERAL GOVERNMENT EXPENDITURE AS SHARE OF GDP/GNI*
Source: Eurostat
7 John Fitzgerald (2016), Problems with the Irish National Accounts and Possible Solutions, Dublin: Central Statistics Office.

I didn't insist anything, I simply posted links from reputable sources...

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

I didn't insist anything, I simply posted links from reputable sources...

Well Enda we will have to confine this to the history books like I hope you will with the Celtic Tiger which began it's heyday 2 decades ago.

You have quoted sources and so have I. Whether or not the interpretation of some of them is politicized to favour a certain narrative is open to debate.

On the ground people really only care about their Real Income as opposed to the Nominal Income. They want to pay their rent/mortgage, childcare fees, for their car/transport, food etc.

To deny that the vast majority are the same famed "squeezed middle" is simply a lie. We all pay taxes too. Sure we have advantages for now in terms of security but the world's achanging more than ever before.

Hotblack Desiato

Arealred wrote: »

Hard to believe this nonsense of cutting public sector wages is being mooted.

It wasn't mooted by anyone worth taking seriously.

It's just the wet dream of certain right wing eejits.

Glinda wrote: »

Most people in the public service are not in their first few years, so a lot of the time increments are irrelevant.

This.

Also the meagre increases you mentioned are the gross pay and don't take into account additional pension contributions.

So in reality, net pay is still way down compared to 13 years ago.

EndaHonesty wrote: »

http://www.finfacts.ie/celtictigereconomyireland.htm#Pay_-_Irish_Public_Service_2001-2006



https://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2012/06/1662012-imf-report-on-ireland-public.html

Always very selective with their base year on these stats.

The intent is to hide the fact that for several years in the late 90s public servants were tied into pay deals which were substantially below inflation, increases of 1-1.5% per year.

It's dishonest use of statistics but par for the course when it comes to public sector pay.

fliball123

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It wasn't mooted by anyone worth taking seriously.

It's just the wet dream of certain right wing eejits.




This.

Also the meagre increases you mentioned are the gross pay and don't take into account additional pension contributions.

So in reality, net pay is still way down compared to 13 years ago.




Always very selective with their base year on these stats.

The intent is to hide the fact that for several years in the late 90s public servants were tied into pay deals which were substantially below inflation, increases of 1-1.5% per year.

It's dishonest use of statistics but par for the course when it comes to public sector pay.

Give it time when over half of private sector workers are not back in work , who is going to pay for ps pay. It will have to be cut sorry but we just cant afford it

Sinzo

fliball123 wrote: »

Give it time when over half of private sector workers are not back in work , who is going to pay for ps pay. It will have to be cut sorry but we just cant afford it

Cuts are a very distinct possibility down the line... not only due to covid or lack of world economic and political stability but also because the way way work is performed and the way services and products are bought and sold is changing like never before.

Sarn

EndaHonesty wrote: »

CSO figures via Ronan Lyons

Whatever about the accuracy of the figures in the chart, it shows that public sector pay increased by approximately 66%, while private sector pay increased by 71% over the period 1998 - 2008.

Sinzo

Sarn wrote: »

Whatever about the accuracy of the figures in the chart, it shows that public sector pay increased by approximately 66%, while private sector pay increased by 71% over the period 1998 - 2008.

Totally right Sarn... You're on the money! I didn't even bother to check it because the graph seems to make the public service graph look more pronounced!

cms88

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Bus and rail are not public sector. The fact that you don't know that and are blaming LUAS action on the public sector tells me that you can be ignored from this point on because you haven't a clue.

Nurses didn't strike.

So.... Teachers and not even all of them. Wow! It's a surprise anything gets done with all that union unrest over the past decade

My mistake. Also where did i say anything about LUAS drivers? Making things up now?

Nurses didn't strike? Where were they doing then when they refused to go to work?

What part of the PS di you work in then? Or maybe you're working for one of the unions?

Also it's funny when you say people blame the public sector when only a few pages back you pretty much blamed the privite sector for the crash etc

barneystinson

Sarn wrote: »

Whatever about the accuracy of the figures in the chart, it shows that public sector pay increased by approximately 66%, while private sector pay increased by 71% over the period 1998 - 2008.

Also worth noting the pay gap in percentage terms, was 33.5% at the start of that graph (29.5k / 22.1k) and REDUCED to 29.6% (49k / 37.8k) at the last point...

EndaHonesty

barneystinson wrote: »

Also worth noting the pay gap in percentage terms, was 33.5% at the start of that graph (29.5k / 22.1k) and REDUCED to 29.6% (49k / 37.8k) at the last point...

A difference of 30% whilst having the benefit of guaranteed employment and gold-plated pensions. That is ridiculous.

The public sector is bleeding the state dry, and they don't even realise it...

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

A difference of 30% whilst having the benefit of guaranteed employment and gold-plated pensions. That is ridiculous.

The public sector is bleeding the state dry, and they don't even realise it...

Hi End of Honesty,
You have a gold plated pension of your own .. paid for by all the public servants you seem to revile. It's called the state pension and it's not too shabby.

EndaHonesty

Sinzo wrote: »

Hi End of Honesty,
You have a gold plated pension of your own .. paid for by all the public servants you seem to revile. It's called the state pension and it's not too shabby.

I am self employed. I am making my own provision for my pension, because in 25 years, when I'm eligible,
the state will not be providing private sector workers access to a state pension.
Public sector workers will have that benefit, all to themselves. And they'll still be asking for more...

Dublingirl80

EndaHonesty wrote: »

I am self employed. I am making my own provision for my pension because in 20 years, when I'm eligible,
the state will not be providing private sector workers access to a state pension.
Public sector workers will have that benefit, all to them selves. And they'll still be asking for more...

Costs a fortune to pay into from the minute they start working too. Wonder if private pensions would be better if the people paid into th4m earlier. Many friends I have still have none whereas public sector pay theirs and their levy which does not go into it from the time theyre 21 and working. What about the state pension by the way? Do you not receive that?

Dav010

Sinzo wrote: »

Hi End of Honesty,
You have a gold plated pension of your own .. paid for by all the public servants you seem to revile. It's called the state pension and it's not too shabby.

That is an interesting perspective on the state pension, are you saying private sector workers don’t contribute to the State’s coffers?

EndaHonesty

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

Costs a fortune to pay into from the minute they start working too. Wonder if private pensions would be better if the people paid into th4m earlier. Many friends I have still have none whereas public sector pay theirs and their levy which does not go into it from the time theyre 21 and working. What about the state pension by the way? Do you not receive that?

I've been paying into my private pension since 18. What's your point?

I won't receive a state pension when I retire.
Because the public sector will have sucked the state dry by then.
That's my point.

EndaHonesty

Dav010 wrote: »

That is an interesting perspective on the state pension, are you saying private sector workers don’t contribute to the State’s coffers?

Sinzo doesn't have a coherent view on the issue, so you're wasting your time.

Sinzo

Dav010 wrote: »

That is an interesting perspective on the state pension, are you saying private sector workers don’t contribute to the State’s coffers?

Absolutely not. But both private and public workers pay for it. I think it's quite often conveniently forgotten.

Dublingirl80

EndaHonesty wrote: »

I've been paying into my private pension since 18. What's your point?

I won't receive a state pension when I retire.

Because the public sector will have sucked the state dry by then.
That's my point

So you're making up predictions? The pension levy we pay doesn't even go into our pension. How much do you pay into yours?

EndaHonesty

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

So you're making up predictions? The pension levy we pay doesn't even go into our pension. How much do you pay into yours?

So you're admitting that the public sector don't contribute to their gold-plated pensions? That is perfect. Thank you.

I pay 25,000 into my pension in a good year. 12,000 in a normal year.

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Sinzo doesn't have a coherent view on the issue, so you're wasting your time.

I have as coherent a view as you. And as a self employed person you too will get the state pension. You have many other perks under a self assessment that are not a ailable to the public sector...

EndaHonesty

Sinzo wrote: »

Absolutely not. But both private and public workers pay for it. I think it's quite often conveniently forgotten.

What is the net position of public sector contributions? Do you know?

How much do public sector pensions cost, each year? Do you know?

EndaHonesty

Sinzo wrote: »

I have as coherent a view as you. And as a self employed person you too will get the state pension. You have many other perks under a self assessment that are not a ailable to the public sector...

Name one "perk"?

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

So you're admitting that the public sector don't contribute to their gold-plated pensions? That is perfect. Thank you.

I pay 25,000 into my pension in a good year. 12,000 in a normal year.

If you can afford to pay 25k into your private pension then I wouldn't be including you as part of the squeezed middle.

You're obviously doing a lot better than the vast majority of civil servants.