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Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

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    #32
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    fatknacker wrote: »
    I loved when he tried to get his Twitter army to go after the Scottish comedian with the "gas the Jews" dog....and get responded to by a volley of the Nazi Father Ted clips that he created. Sanctimonious hypocrite.

    He's an insufferable Liberal but the crazies within his own tribe have now outcast him for heresy


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    #33
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,986 ✭✭✭conorhal


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    RTE probably can't find anyone else to risk being publicly destroyed (including their ability to earn a living and having their families attacked) for espousing the idea that perhaps pumping confused children full of drugs might not be the best idea.

    You know an ideology is on shaky ground when it's proponents go after detractors with such tenacious vitriol. it's like scientology or the Stasi.




    I donno, RTE have a habit of using such figures as 'controlled opposition' when it comes the any contentious issue on which they come down heavilly on one side. When this is case the 'dissenting voice' they pick to 'represent the other side' is often some wildly unhinged individual intending to discredit whatever position RTE are pushing.


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    #34
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    conorhal wrote: »
    I donno, RTE have a habit of using such figures as 'controlled opposition' when it comes the any contentious issue on which they come down heavilly on one side. When this is case the 'dissenting voice' they pick to 'represent the other side' is often some wildly unhinged individual intending to discredit whatever position RTE are pushing.


    Yep, it’s been seen in numerous “debates” of late on RTÉ shows like Prime Time - the unhinged individual makes the loony toons look moderate by comparison. I’d have loved to see a “debate” on this issue between Ruth Coppinger and Linehan.

    Actuality, no. Now I think about it I wouldn’t :pac:


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    #35
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,187 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    conorhal wrote: »
    I donno, RTE have a habit of using such figures as 'controlled opposition' when it comes the any contentious issue on which they come down heavilly on one side. When this is case the 'dissenting voice' they pick to 'represent the other side' is often some wildly unhinged individual intending to discredit whatever position RTE are pushing.


    In that case they could not have made a better choice.


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    #36
    keano_afc
    Registered Users Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Yep, it’s been seen in numerous “debates” of late on RTshows like Prime Time - the unhinged individual makes the loony toons look moderate by comparison. I’d have loved to see a “debate” on this issue between Ruth Coppinger and Linehan.

    Actuality, no. Now I think about it I wouldn’t :pac:

    With fire and tridents. Everyone's a winner.


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    #37
    Bob Harris
    Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭Bob Harris


    Freedom freedom freedom but say anything that goes against my opinion or belief and you will be silenced. Ah yes, freedom.

    No harm having him on, his attitude might wake them up to the reality of life and their struggles to accept it.


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    #38
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    super_furry wrote: »
    Jesus, he seems absolutely obsessed with attacking transgender people constantly. Not sure what qualifications he has to be held up as some font of knowledge on the issue, outside of really hating trans people.


    But he doesn't


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    #39
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I read somewhere that Linehan will not be on Primetime - don't know if that is true or not.

    I question his inclusion on the Panel as I think - given his extreme anti-trans views - that it is an attempt by RTE to have, as one poster described it, a shouty show rather than any kind of reasonable debate.

    Having said that, I would be of the opinion to let him voice his opinion - with strict moderation so any attempt at drawing comparisons to Nazis and generally abusive statements be quickly dealt with. But this is RTE and I have yet to see them be able to moderate anything in an impartial manner.

    There are issues. That is the truth of it. Most of them are scaremongering but some aren't. There are some in the Lesbian community, for example, who feel that butch identity is being rendering invisible as there is pressure coming from the radical trans activists to 'admit' to 'really' being a transman - some very thoughtful, fully supportive of people transitioning, women feel this way but will not voice it in public for fear of being labelled transphobic.

    There are also many who worry that radical transactivists are generally advocating a binary view of gender that seeks to reinstate a very outdated view of masculinity and femininity.

    Add to that that many women are fed up with the likes of Jenner speaking for the 'experience' of women when they feel that as Jenner interacted with the world in a male persona for decades she did not really experience what is to be treated as female by society and therefore cannot truly claim to be the expert she portrays herself as...express this and quickly cries of T.E.R.F drown it out.
    This is not to deny there are T.E.R.F.s who are just as radical and unbending in their position and will never accept any transwoman as a 'real' woman. A view I do not share.
    There are transpeople expressing serious concerns about what is happening. They are being silenced.

    These are genuine areas of concern that should be discussed. But there are two sides becoming entrenched through lack of dialogue and the considered thoughtful views on both sides are being subsumed into the extremes and battle lines are drawn.

    I think Linehan is not the person to engage in thoughtful dialogue on this as his views are on the extreme anti-trans side. He was invited to generate controversy.


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    #40
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,121 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    batgoat wrote: »
    https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/1026823/God-has-made-a-mistake-I-should-have-been-a-girl-Butterfly-ITV
    Her child is now 25 and living a happy life. I think a sixteen year old can be perfectly aware of what her gender is so I'm not finding this a hugely big deal. You can get killed at war at age 16 in the UK but transitioning is a big no no? Also Linehan has a pretty long history of being terribly in relation to transgender people, he likens it to bulimia on the prime time thing... That's frankly not okay or accurate.


    Um, just no. 16 year olds don't have the capacity to make that choice and for good reason. Gender dysphoria is a thing obviously, if they still feel that way as an adult then fair enough but a teenager or younger, no they don't have the capacity to make that decision. Just how we wouldn't let a 16 year old get a vasectomy or a hysterectomy or any other life altering elective surgery. I mean honestly, can you say that as a 16 year old you never made bad decisions that at the time you were sure about? I know I did.

    All studies show that the vast majority of children with gender dysphoria grow out of it if left to their own devices , without medical intervention.

    Also please can the people saying he "hates" transgender people give examples of this hate. As far as I can see calling out people who advocate surgery on children or people who change names to avoid detection due to being criminals is the extent of it, and that's not exactly "hate" is it?


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    #41
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Not quite sure how to take this one, I am not sure exactly how Graham is an expert or a voice of the issue but I don't really know too much about him.

    At the same time they do need an opposing voice on teh debate it cannot be all one way.

    Like it or not trans people are not going to have it as easy as other members of their community because of advocacy of treatment on young kids and the growing trend to remove kids from parents.


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    #42
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    If anything, he's anti 'stifling of the debate unless you agree with every single thing that the trans orthodoxy dictates'
    Which is ironic considering the petition to have him stifled.

    Anyhow, I'm sure the extremis of trans orthodoxy will implode very shortly all on it's own.


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    #43
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,529 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    I am bemused by the fact being brought up on twitter by people complaining about him that he is non-resident.

    The same folks were delighted with the "home to vote" campaign during the last referendum. :confused:


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    #44
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Um, just no. 16 year olds don't have the capacity to make that choice and for good reason. Gender dysphoria is a thing obviously, if they still feel that way as an adult then fair enough but a teenager or younger, no they don't have the capacity to make that choice. Just how we wouldn't let a 16 year old get a vasectomy or a hysterectomy or any other life altering elective surgery.

    Also please can the people saying he "hates" transgender people give examples of this hate. As far as I can see calling out people who advocate surgery on children or people who change names to avoid detection is the extent of it and that's not hate?

    If you question anything about the current transgender position then you hate them. You are literally not permitted to discuss anything.


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    #45
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,187 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Not quite sure how to take this one, I am not sure exactly how Graham is an expert or a voice of the issue but I don't really know too much about him.

    At the same time they do need an opposing voice on teh debate it cannot be all one way.

    Like it or not trans people are not going to have it as easy as other members of their community because of advocacy of treatment on young kids and the growing trend to remove kids from parents.


    He is neither, he is just very opinionated. That seems to be enough these days.


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    #46
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,529 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    He is neither, he is just very opinionated. That seems to be enough these days.

    I dont think he is an expert at all. It'd be like me going on to explain being a woman.

    (I'm a 40 year old man)


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    #47
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,187 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    I dont think he is an expert at all. It'd be like me going on to explain being a woman.

    (I'm a 40 year old man)


    I reckon you would do a much job explaining women than Linehan would explaining trans issues.


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    #48
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    He is neither, he is just very opinionated. That seems to be enough these days.

    It's lousy. It seems that if someone shouts and screams loudly enough against something and draws enough attention to themselves, they're handed a career as a professional agitator. It's how you end up with people like Katie Hopkins.


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    #49
    ironwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭ironwalk


    I don't think GL sets himself up as an expert at all.
    What I take from it is that he questions where the line is between the rights of people who identify as being a trans woman, and the rights of women.

    For instance, if you've a teenage daughter, do you want her going shopping on a Saturday, into the dressing room in Penneys and any fella who wants to, can say that he's a woman, and in he goes after her?

    Do you want your granny having personal care on a hospital ward with a bloke who still has a beard and all his bits, but who decides to identify as a woman for a few days a week?

    And don't say "that'll never happen". It mightn't have happened here, yet, but it has in other countries.

    I've no problem with an adult man dressing and presenting in any way that he wants...off you go. But as soon as s/he wants to step on my toes or those of my daughter, then I'm going to draw a line.

    So, the issue isn't about trans rights, it's about holding the rights of women in balance.


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    #50
    How Soon Is Now
    Registered Users Posts: 13,090 ✭✭✭✭How Soon Is Now


    Remember the good old days in Ireland when no one knew or talked about any of this kinda ****e? That was nice....


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    #51
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,187 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ironwalk wrote: »
    I don't think GL sets himself up as an expert at all.
    What I take from it is that he questions where the line is between the rights of people who identify as being a trans woman, and the rights of women.

    For instance, if you've a teenage daughter, do you want her going shopping on a Saturday, into the dressing room in Penneys and any fella who wants to, can say that he's a woman, and in he goes after her?

    Do you want your granny having personal care on a hospital ward with a bloke who still has a beard and all his bits, but who decides to identify as a woman for a few days a week?

    And don't say "that'll never happen". It mightn't have happened here, yet, but it has in other countries.

    I've no problem with an adult man dressing and presenting in any way that he wants...off you go. But as soon as s/he wants to step on my toes or those of my daughter, then I'm going to draw a line.

    So, the issue isn't about trans rights, it's about holding the rights of women in balance.


    I dont understand your dressing room argument at all. Are womens changing rooms communal? Do they not have separate cubicles like they do in mens changing rooms?


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    #52
    ironwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭ironwalk


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I dont understand your dressing room argument at all. Are womens changing rooms communal? Do they not have separate cubicles like they do in mens changing rooms?

    Most women's dressing rooms have cubicles. Short curtains, gaps under partitions, open topped.

    My point is, do you want your teenager undressing in a confined space with a bloke with a phone?

    Yes/no?

    Or, if that doesn't bother you; what about when she is out and a bloke is harassing her in the pub. She goes to the bathroom to get away from him.....ooops, now John is Jane and security can't say anything.


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    #53
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Yep, it’s been seen in numerous “debates” of late on RTÉ shows like Prime Time - the unhinged individual makes the loony toons look moderate by comparison. I’d have loved to see a “debate” on this issue between Ruth Coppinger and Linehan.

    Actuality, no. Now I think about it I wouldn’t :pac:

    I'd rather see roe mc dermot.

    Every second word out of that one's mouth is "trans"


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    #54
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,585 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    How can you have a debate without hearing arguments from both sides ??

    But no, here the outraged just want to hear it from one side


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    #55
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I dont understand your dressing room argument at all. Are womens changing rooms communal? Do they not have separate cubicles like they do in mens changing rooms?

    Some are communal yes. I don't think it would bother me but I can imagine some people being uncomfortable with it. I would be more uncomfortable in the likes of a gym changing room where I might be naked. Would I want somebody who looked like a man there even if they consider themselves as a woman. Does that make me a trans phobic? probably. Does that mean I hate them. No.


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    #56
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    When only one side gets to air their views on TV it's not a democratic debate, it's a one-sided, biased monologue*

    That said, I have no clue what a comedian should be doing in that debate, there should be experts and people with facts instead on sound-byters
    Also, I am for gender correction where needed - in adults.


    * this is how they want it. Only their side gets to speak, and then they can say "sure, we all agreed this is best".


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    #57
    piplip87
    Registered Users Posts: 2,109 ✭✭✭piplip87


    It's a debate. One side of the debate is petitioning to get opposing side removed from the debate ? Why ?

    I work in social media and I see a lot of teenagers accounts every single day. Some suicidal themed ones and the by line is always the same. *sexuality* depressed self diagnosed.

    It seems to be in the in thing at the moment for teenagers to identify as something that's not heterosexual. It's also the thing to have a mental illness associated with this gender.


    I would say 90% of these illnesses are made up and are 99% of genders.

    There is two genders. Male and Female. If you identify as the other one that's fine two but there is no need for 47 different genders.

    Sexuality is the same. There's 4 Straight, gay and BI. and Asexual That covers everything.

    This demi sexual, pansexual crap is confusing kids.so much some.of them will self harm etc. Just because you feel different doesn't mean you have to make up a new gender


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    #58
    How Soon Is Now
    Registered Users Posts: 13,090 ✭✭✭✭How Soon Is Now


    piplip87 wrote: »
    It's a debate. One side of the debate is petitioning to get opposing side removed from the debate ? Why ?


    Cause only one side of most debates matter on Rte the ultra Liberal one.


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    #59
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,704 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    I am bemused by the fact being brought up on twitter by people complaining about him that he is non-resident.

    The same folks were delighted with the "home to vote" campaign during the last referendum. :confused:

    Good old hypocrisy.


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    #60
    ironwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 250 ✭✭ironwalk


    biko wrote: »
    When only one side gets to air their views on TV it's not a democratic debate, it's a one-sided, biased monologue.

    That said, I have no clue what a comedian should be doing in that debate, there should be experts and people with facts instead on sound-byters

    He's got involved in the debate (as far as I can see, can't speak for the man, know him only from Fr Ted, or the IT crowd) because he's a husband and father of daughters.
    And he can see the need to safeguard women, against the type of man who can hijack trans issues for his own perversity.
    Very few men are talking about this, because, ultimately it doesn't affect them.
    But it affects all women.

    This is not about hating on trans people... it's about maintaining the protections for women.


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    #61
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    How Soon Is Now wrote: »
    Remember the good old days in Ireland when no one knew or talked about any of this kinda ****e? That was nice....
    You mean when it was all behind closed doors and priests fiddled with kids, women got battered, gay people feared for their lives and anyone who displayed any kind of "non-Christian" sentiment was ostracised by the media?

    Yeah, great craic that was.

    I'm wide open to discussion that things may have swung a little too wildly the other way, but calls to not include a comedy writer with a stated anti-trans bias on a discussion about trans issues, is not trying to silence anyone.

    We need experts to discuss social matters. Not outrage merchants and religious zealots.

    Bringing Graham Linehan on for this just goes to show that the "Prime Time" which was once RTE's best effort at a dignified current affairs programme, is going down the path of doing whatever is necessary to get the most viewers. It has no interest in honest journalism.


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