The glorious 12th

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 3:10pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Big Ian wasn't the only party leader connected to an orange order, independent or otherwise

https://www.google.com/search?q=ian+paisley+and+david+trimble&client=firefox-b-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOg73phrfjAhV8XRUIHYVLDvIQ_AUIECgB&biw=1600&bih=887#imgrc=7kN9YocIzT7YFM:

It's plain for all to see what influence the various OO's had on northern Irish society and politics.

The constant limbo dancing to try and deny that this is an organisation/ethos that is primarily motivated by religious and political suprematism is funny to read.
It is dying in membership because people simply are not interested in that anymore...i.e. progress.

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 3:12pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Are Orange Order marches culture? I wouldn’t put Paddy’s Day parades as part of Irish Catholic culture really, nice way for kids to pass an hour or so, but you couldn’t say it’s an important part of culture.

I'd agree, if they were banned in the morning, would we miss them? Be culturally lesser, or culturally worse off? I don't think so.

downcow · 15-07-2019 3:13pm

armaghlad wrote: »

Here’s my two cents:
- I live in a town where according to the 2011 census *at least* 62% of the population cannot even become a member of the OO institution ie are Catholic or from a Catholic background. It is safe to assume then, that the majority of my town do not support Loyalist parades. It’s ok though, I still support their right to march. It’s their town too after all.
- Every summer at the beginning of July, a UVF-aligned flute band (who regularly parade with the local lodges and includes dual members) will creep out under the cover of darkness and, under the watchful eye of the PSNI, erect copious amounts of flags, bunting etc. These range from Union flags and NI flags on lampposts, Israel flags, paramilitary flags and flags and banners showing support for the bloodthirsty parachute regiment and suspected mass murderer known as Soldier F. There’s also an impressive Orange arch which I have little issue with. I feel this is incredibly antagonistic towards the silent majority in my town however because it has been tolerated/accommodated for so long it is somehow still seen as acceptable by the OO.
- The main 12th July demonstration for my County was held in a different town 15 miles away and it is my understanding that each town hosts the main county demonstration every 11 years. Why the need then to “decorate” my town so thoroughly when it isn’t hosting the main demonstration? Why feel the need to erect so many flags and offensive banners, when nearby “unionist” towns have nowhere near as many? Can the OO not call out this intolerance, they seem quite happy to parade under these offensive trappings.
- Why can’t you be like Crossgar, County Down. They have the village kitted out in red, white and blue for their 12th parade. By sunrise the next morning it is all removed. Why can’t this level of respect be shown?
Before anyone points out to me the difference between bands and the OO, I am well aware of the distinction. The OO however wield significant influence on these bands, after all it is they who invite them to parade at Orange marches.

thats very honest and helpful.
I know there is many in the OO and unionist community who agree with you and would like to see the Twelfth only being held in very predominately protestant towns. I get their thinking but i completely disagree. I live on the outskirts of a town which was 40% protestant and now is less than 5% protestant as they all moved in fear during the troubles. It is also 'our town' to the significant number of protestants living in the rural community and has an OO hall and two protestant churches and school. I think it is very sad that our culture is not allowed to be expressed in our town one day every 15 years which is all that we ask - but it is not allowed. Down the road is Kilkeel which has a very predominantly protestant town centre and yet it has a number of nationalist parades each year including and Dissident IRA aligned band. This to me is much healthier.
My main demonstration this year was Crossgar that you mention although i didnt go. And yes there is an agreement in the towns around me that flags come down quickly. In my nearest mixed town when the twelfth is being held the flags go up in the early hours of the twelfth morning and come down late afternoon immediate after the parade, yet last year i still heard catholics complaining about why they had to go up at all (this is not replicated for the easter rising parade when the flags are up for weeks).

So i don't disgree with you but the flags is a thorny issue. You probably view a union flag flying as marking territory and showing who thinks they are in charge. I understand that. But most of my community see Irish road signs in exactly the same light, as marking territory and showing who thinks they are in charge. I would love there was more genuine respect for each others culture, identity and celebrations - but it is going to be a very long road

Edit i just reread you post and see the isrealie stuff etc, and i know this is whataboutery, but in my town the irish tricolour and Palestinian flag flies 365 days a year and there is an illegal monument on council owned land to republican mass killers who have murdered members of our community. Its just all very complex and some on here would like to paint it as those nasty prods (i do not include you in that - i appreciated your post)

Odhinn · 15-07-2019 3:16pm

downcow wrote: »

whats this stuff about neck tattoos?

I'll just leave this here..............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XETd9nSNAe8

Seanachai · 15-07-2019 3:17pm

downcow wrote: »

Have you strayed off a nature thread - If not then it is pretty offensive stuff but does highlight bigotry and save me have to demonstrate it to people

I haven't strayed off anywhere, I was trying to find a biological reason as to why a community of people could behave in such a backward way. It's well known that inbreeding causes very strange behaviour patterns.

downcow · 15-07-2019 3:18pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Big Ian wasn't the only party leader connected to an orange order, independent or otherwise

https://www.google.com/search?q=ian+paisley+and+david+trimble&client=firefox-b-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOg73phrfjAhV8XRUIHYVLDvIQ_AUIECgB&biw=1600&bih=887#imgrc=7kN9YocIzT7YFM:

So Trimble is an orangeman and paisley was not (or if he was as a very young man he soon left - although i still argue he was not) What does that tell you when you look at Trimble today.

And just in case there is any doubt, you do know that paisley is not wearing an orange sash in that photo

Dytalus · 15-07-2019 3:20pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Are Orange Order marches culture? I wouldn’t put Paddy’s Day parades as part of Irish Catholic culture really, nice way for kids to pass an hour or so, but you couldn’t say it’s an important part of culture.

The parades, no. But they (and the rest of the stuff on the day) give a chance to celebrate the stuff that does constitute Irish culture. I'm not a fan of parades as a rule, so I'm not hugely well versed on what they're like but the few I have been to had themes to do with Irish history or famous Irish figures. Then there's other stuff like the Céilí Mór which is more directly linked to cultural activities.

I wouldn't consider the OO marches their 'culture', in the same way I don't consider Paddy's Parades our culture. But both of them are a tradition, and used to celebrate culture. Whether you then consider them important traditions falls down to personal opinion. Like I said, I loathe parades but if enough people enjoy it as a way to celebrate being Irish on Paddy's Day then I'd consider it fairly important.

Odhinn · 15-07-2019 3:20pm

downcow wrote: »

So Trimble is an orangeman and paisley was not (or if he was as a very young man he soon left - although i still argue he was not) What does that tell you when you look at Trimble today.

And just in case there is any doubt, you do know that paisley is not wearing an orange sash in that photo

Paisley was associated with the indendent order, primarily because the main order was almost synonymous with the UUP. He used address them on the 12th every year, though he wasn't actually a member.

downcow · 15-07-2019 3:32pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Paisley was in the indendent order, primarily because the main order was almost synonymous with the UUP.

check you facts. I think you'll find this is simply wishful thinking. I am fairly certain he was not in the Independent OO either even though Francie is still claiming that, having accepted that he didn't form it

Odhinn · 15-07-2019 3:33pm

downcow wrote: »

check you facts. I think you'll find this is simply wishful thinking. I am fairly certain he was not in the Independent OO either even though Francie is still claiming that having accepted that he didn't form it

You might check post 609..............

downcow · 15-07-2019 3:36pm

Odhinn wrote: »

You might check post 609..............

Thanks
So if you have checked and now found he definitely was not a member of the independent OO, could you do me a favour and point Francie to the facts as he thinks i am making it up. - I am sure he will then come on and retract that as well

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 3:45pm

downcow wrote: »

check you facts. I think you'll find this is simply wishful thinking. I am fairly certain he was not in the Independent OO either even though Francie is still claiming that having accepted that he didn't form it

Why is he wearing a sash in numerous pictures? And he was a member of the OO at one time, the Grandmaster's tributes to him as a 'close friend of the Order' and his frequent appearances defending it's right to parade where it wasn't wanted show he didn't stray too far from it.
Paisley was linked to plenty of organisations. Whether he was or not, his rhetoric and speech over the years can tell us he was in the same lineage as an order that has a hate of the RC church and it's members.

Or are you in denial of that too?

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 3:59pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Like any average person I'm not obsessed with a UI vote-i'm interested in NI,it is after all part of the UK.A casual look at UI survey statistics appear unclear and don't appear to be particularly in favour of it which seems to fly in the face of what you keep saying.
For someone who takes offence at something as innocuous as the England football team(as pointed out by folkstonian some time ago)your denial about hating everything British is ingenious and frankly laughable.

I take offence very specifically at English soccer supporters behaviour abroad and link that to a lot of what is happening in British society in general.

I have the same tribal, fun and sporting dislike of England in rugby, football etc as I have to my nearest neighbours Cavan in GAA.

Boo Hoo, if that upsets you tbh.

There are many many aspects of British culture that I cherish and am deeply interested in. I have many many British friends.

I cannot prove that here, but what can I do.

And you'd be better taking your points about a UI to the correct on topic thread.

downcow · 15-07-2019 4:30pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why is he wearing a sash in numerous pictures? And he was a member of the OO at one time, the Grandmaster's tributes to him as a 'close friend of the Order' and his frequent appearances defending it's right to parade where it wasn't wanted show he didn't stray too far from it.
Paisley was linked to plenty of organisations. Whether he was or not, his rhetoric and speech over the years can tell us he was in the same lineage as an order that has a hate of the RC church and it's members.

Or are you in denial of that too?

No. I just don't like you trying to link everything you see as unsavoury to the OO. the facts are the facts. He was not a member of the independent OO as you are claiming. ....and you did ask us today to challenge you for evidence.
The sash you see him wearing is the greatest evidence of all that he was not a member of the OO. The sash is an Apprentice Boys of Derry sash which he always wore when in the company of OO, as he didnt own an OO one - disingenuous in my opinion.
Unlike what some are claiming on here his reluctance to join the OO was nothing to do with UUP or its political slant. It actually was for one simple reason and that was outlined in the extremist website you linked earlier - he held that view that it was not compatible with his christian belief system to take vows and oaths to anyone but God - there was no requirement for this in the ABOD
His attraction to the independent OO was that they were much more biblical (in his warped opinion) eg they were anti alcohol

downcow · 15-07-2019 4:37pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I take offence very specifically at English soccer supporters behaviour abroad and link that to a lot of what is happening in British society in general.

I have the same tribal, fun and sporting dislike of England in rugby, football etc as I have to my nearest neighbours Cavan in GAA.

Boo Hoo, if that upsets you tbh.

There are many many aspects of British culture that I cherish and am deeply interested in. I have many many British friends.

I cannot prove that here, but what can I do.

And you'd be better taking your points about a UI to the correct on topic thread.

Francie, I hate to be on your back but you are doing it again. Lumping all English supporters in together. I have met many on my football trips and have yet to meet an English or ROI supporter who was badly behaved. I have spent nights in pubs with both with no issues.
But i understand you neighbourly competitiveness - nothing gives me more pleasure than watching ROI lose :-)

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 4:43pm

downcow wrote: »

No. I just don't like you trying to link everything you see as unsavoury to the OO. the facts are the facts. He was not a member of the independent OO as you are claiming. ....and you did ask us today to challenge you for evidence.
The sash you see him wearing is the greatest evidence of all that he was not a member of the OO. The sash is an Apprentice Boys of Derry sash which he always wore when in the company of OO, as he didnt own an OO one - disingenuous in my opinion.
Unlike what some are claiming on here his reluctance to join the OO was nothing to do with UUP or its political slant. It actually was for one simple reason and that was outlined in the extremist website you linked earlier - he held that view that it was not compatible with his christian belief system to take vows and oaths to anyone but God - there was no requirement for this in the ABOD

So you are disputing several links that say he WAS a member of the OO?

Here is another one, which says he was the chaplain of not one, but two lodges:

The foundation of his Church handicapped Paisley’s political career in that it was never recognised by the Orange movement. Paisley had joined the Orange Order after the war, and by 1951 was chaplain of two of its lodges. But the Orange Grand Lodge refused to recognise his ministry, and he made himself unpopular by launching an attack on a Grand Master who would not condemn the advertising of alcohol. Though he remained in demand as a preacher, Paisley finally left the Order in 1962 in protest at the attendance of the Lord Mayor of Belfast at a Requiem Mass.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11092046/Lord-Bannside-obituary.html

Stop gilding the lilies downcow. Paisley's rethoric and the anti Catholic stance of the OO are hand in glove coming from the same base.

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 4:46pm

downcow wrote: »

Francie, I hate to be on your back but you are doing it again. Lumping all English supporters in together. I have met many on my football trips and have yet to meet an English or ROI supporter who was badly behaved. I have spent nights in pubs with both with no issues.
But i understand you neighbourly competitiveness - nothing gives me more pleasure than watching ROI lose :-)

Jesus, are you in denial of English football supporters criminal, belligerent behaviour around the world? Lordy.

Rob referred to my posting on the matter, go find it and you will see that I do NOT target all of England's support.

downcow · 15-07-2019 4:59pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you are disputing several links that say he WAS a member of the OO?

Here is another one, which says he was the chaplain of not one, but two lodges:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11092046/Lord-Bannside-obituary.html

Stop gilding the lilies downcow. Paisley's rethoric and the anti Catholic stance of the OO are hand in glove coming from the same base.

I have learnt something from you Francie after all. Clearly he was a member of the OO but even though i am 55 he had left before i was born which would explain why i didnt know that he was a member in the distant past. I was wrong on that point - so sincere apologies.
Now maybe you could admit that you were wrong about him being a member of the independent OO.
Now so far as guilding the lillies, I have already been clear that i wasn't his biggest fan. He was divisive and arrogant and made many speeches that lead people to prison. I have to accept he also spoke a lot of truth at times. He also changed quite dramatically in later life and fair play to him for that. so don't paint it as though i am sticking up for him

J Mysterio · 15-07-2019 5:00pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus, are you in denial of English football supporters criminal, belligerent behaviour around the world? Lordy.

Rob referred to my posting on the matter, go find it and you will see that I do NOT target all of England's support.

It really can't be denied that English football fans are the worst bloody fans in the world for mayhem and destruction. But that's OT.

cgcsb · 15-07-2019 5:03pm

downcow wrote: »

Francie, I hate to be on your back but you are doing it again. Lumping all English supporters in together. I have met many on my football trips and have yet to meet an English or ROI supporter who was badly behaved. I have spent nights in pubs with both with no issues.

I fully expected a reply like that. When presented with the general case, revert to personal anecdote or isolated example to the contrary. Rinse and repeat.

downcow · 15-07-2019 5:03pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus, are you in denial of English football supporters criminal, belligerent behaviour around the world? Lordy.

Rob referred to my posting on the matter, go find it and you will see that I do NOT target all of England's support.

Your language suggests that all english football supporters are a problem. I am telling you i have had significant personal experience of them and they have all been excellent experiences. I am very aware there is a fringe element that are a problem. Indeed many nations have a similar problem but England seems to attract a particularly difficult element but they are a tiny minority. You should try not to label entire groups by the actions of a few

downcow · 15-07-2019 5:05pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I fully expected a reply like that. When presented with the general case, revert to personal anecdote or isolated example to the contrary. Rinse and repeat.

just read again what you have wrote and think who is the one guilty of this

J Mysterio · 15-07-2019 5:07pm

downcow wrote: »

Your language suggests that all english football supporters are a problem. I am telling you i have had significant personal experience of them and they have all been excellent experiences. I am very aware there is a fringe element that are a problem. Indeed many nations have a similar problem but England seems to attract a particularly difficult element but they are a tiny minority. You should try not to label entire groups by the actions of a few

In fairness, English fans have a well deserved worldwide reputation for being an absolute disaster.

I would have sympathy for the ordinary fans, but they are drowned out by the thugs and hooligans, of which there are many - I couldn't characterize them as a tiny minority. You really needn't/ shouldn't defend them. But, again, off topic.

armaghlad · 15-07-2019 5:12pm

downcow wrote: »

thats very honest and helpful.
I know there is many in the OO and unionist community who agree with you and would like to see the Twelfth only being held in very predominately protestant towns. I get their thinking but i completely disagree. I live on the outskirts of a town which was 40% protestant and now is less than 5% protestant as they all moved in fear during the troubles. It is also 'our town' to the significant number of protestants living in the rural community and has an OO hall and two protestant churches and school. I think it is very sad that our culture is not allowed to be expressed in our town one day every 15 years which is all that we ask - but it is not allowed. Down the road is Kilkeel which has a very predominantly protestant town centre and yet it has a number of nationalist parades each year including and Dissident IRA aligned band. This to me is much healthier.
My main demonstration this year was Crossgar that you mention although i didnt go. And yes there is an agreement in the towns around me that flags come down quickly. In my nearest mixed town when the twelfth is being held the flags go up in the early hours of the twelfth morning and come down late afternoon immediate after the parade, yet last year i still heard catholics complaining about why they had to go up at all (this is not replicated for the easter rising parade when the flags are up for weeks).

So i don't disgree with you but the flags is a thorny issue. You probably view a union flag flying as marking territory and showing who thinks they are in charge. I understand that. But most of my community see Irish road signs in exactly the same light, as marking territory and showing who thinks they are in charge. I would love there was more genuine respect for each others culture, identity and celebrations - but it is going to be a very long road

Edit i just reread you post and see the isrealie stuff etc, and i know this is whataboutery, but in my town the irish tricolour and Palestinian flag flies 365 days a year and there is an illegal monument on council owned land to republican mass killers who have murdered members of our community. Its just all very complex and some on here would like to paint it as those nasty prods (i do not include you in that - i appreciated your post)

I just think there needs to be more open dialogue over things like flags. In principle, I don’t oppose Orange marches - especially not in mixed areas. I don’t mind or oppose bunting or arches. But this flag on every lamppost carry-on is not only disrespectful to the perpetrators own flag, it’s also antagonistic to many people and I include the Irish tricolour. I have no issue with flags on flagpoles where they belong. Palestine/Israel is slightly different, I wholeheartedly condemn the apartheid/racist state of Israel and view it very much in the same light as apartheid South Africa, possibly worse. Again you may differ on that but I struggle to see the relevance to Orange culture with flying the Israel flag, it seems to further assert my opinion that much of Loyalist culture is about antagonism and triumphalism because republicans support Palestine (see also Soldier F/Paras love-in) I think there are better ways to show solidarity with Palestine than flying their flag on a lamppost btw.

In general I think Loyalist culture needs sanitised but that’s just my opinion. The whole flags thing and even Irish road signs etc, are often ignored and used as a way to attack Sinn Féin. The fact that a legitimate and valid concern is raised is usually automatically dismissed because SF have raised it, despite it often having widespread support from SDLP, Alliance etc. Case in point, the parachute regiment flags and banner erected in my town, SF were accused by the DUP of being “intolerant” for wanting them removed! It’s this sort of arrogance that makes a lot of people in my town fed up and more and more unwilling to compromise in future

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 5:17pm

downcow wrote: »

I have learnt something from you Francie after all. Clearly he was a member of the OO but even though i am 55 he had left before i was born which would explain why i didnt know that he was a member in the distant past. I was wrong on that point - so sincere apologies.
Now maybe you could admit that you were wrong about him being a member of the independent OO.

I couldn't really care less if he was a member of the IOO or not, he addressed it every year took part in it's marches and the marches (particularly the contentious ones) of the OO.
To all intents and purposes, he was the epitomy of the tenets and beliefs of the OO, that he had a spat with them is beside the general point I was making about the PM's of northern Ireland and the leaders of the DUP.

Now so far as guilding the lillies, I have already been clear that i wasn't his biggest fan. He was divisive and arrogant and made many speeches that lead people to prison. I have to accept he also spoke a lot of truth at times. He also changed quite dramatically in later life and fair play to him for that. so don't paint it as though i am sticking up for him

I never said you were sticking up for him. You are sticking up for the OO, which believes all the things he did about other religions, particularly the Catholic church.

dundalkfc10 · 15-07-2019 5:33pm

[QUOTE=FrancieBrady;110697518]I take offence very specifically at English soccer supporters behaviour abroad and link that to a lot of what is happening in British society in general.

I have the same tribal, fun and sporting dislike of England in rugby, football etc as I have to my nearest neighbours Cavan in GAA.

Boo Hoo, if that upsets you tbh.

There are many many aspects of British culture that I cherish and am deeply interested in. I have many many British friends.

I cannot prove that here, but what can I do.

And you'd be better taking your points about a UI to the correct on topic thread.[/QUOTE]

From going to Ireland away games this past year, our own away following is getting just like them. Young teens/early 20s all coked off their head (notice it more and more every trip)

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 5:39pm

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

From going to Ireland away games this past year, our own away following is getting just like them. Young teens/early 20s all coked off their head (notice it more and more every trip)

And that somehow excuses the English supporters who have decades long reputations now?

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 5:49pm

downcow wrote: »

Francie, I hate to be on your back but you are doing it again. Lumping all English supporters in together. I have met many on my football trips and have yet to meet an English or ROI supporter who was badly behaved. I have spent nights in pubs with both with no issues.
But i understand you neighbourly competitiveness - nothing gives me more pleasure than watching ROI lose :-)

Your last remark is quite revealing.
Back on topic, this is what the rest of the world sees when the 12th rolls around.
This is culture? I’d love to know how exactly?

Also love to know what actual British people think of their flag being used in such a way by foreigners effectively. Wouldn’t be too happy I’d imagine

What this about Downcow?

https://twitter.com/stevenmdunne/status/1149617590576111616?s=21

downcow · 15-07-2019 5:58pm

armaghlad wrote: »

I just think there needs to be more open dialogue over things like flags. In principle, I don’t oppose Orange marches - especially not in mixed areas. I don’t mind or oppose bunting or arches. But this flag on every lamppost carry-on is not only disrespectful to the perpetrators own flag, it’s also antagonistic to many people and I include the Irish tricolour. I have no issue with flags on flagpoles where they belong. Palestine/Israel is slightly different, I wholeheartedly condemn the apartheid/racist state of Israel and view it very much in the same light as apartheid South Africa, possibly worse. Again you may differ on that but I struggle to see the relevance to Orange culture with flying the Israel flag, it seems to further assert my opinion that much of Loyalist culture is about antagonism and triumphalism because republicans support Palestine (see also Soldier F/Paras love-in) I think there are better ways to show solidarity with Palestine than flying their flag on a lamppost btw.

In general I think Loyalist culture needs sanitised but that’s just my opinion. The whole flags thing and even Irish road signs etc, are often ignored and used as a way to attack Sinn Féin. The fact that a legitimate and valid concern is raised is usually automatically dismissed because SF have raised it, despite it often having widespread support from SDLP, Alliance etc. Case in point, the parachute regiment flags and banner erected in my town, SF were accused by the DUP of being “intolerant” for wanting them removed! It’s this sort of arrogance that makes a lot of people in my town fed up and more and more unwilling to compromise in future

I appreciate your input. But help me here. You don’t want support shown for soldier f who is currently innocent. Would you call for the removal of the illegal shrine to people found guilty of sectarian killings in my town? Or the stuff on the main road near me eulogising the hunger strike terrorists?
And are you saying Irish language signage is ok but union flags are not?

downcow · 15-07-2019 6:02pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Your last remark is quite revealing.
Back on topic, this is what the rest of the world sees when the 12th rolls around.
This is culture? I’d love to know how exactly?

Also love to know what actual British people think of their flag being used in such a way by foreigners effectively. Wouldn’t be too happy I’d imagine
]

Are you really saying that it is fine for you to enjoy watching England or Cavan to lose because they are your neighbour but it different when I enjoy watching roi lose?

Your last para really shows the problem. You don’t accept I am British even though the gfa says you must.

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 6:03pm

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate your input. But help me here. You don’t want support shown for soldier f who is currently innocent. Would you call for the removal of the illegal shrine to people found guilty of sectarian killings in my town? Or the stuff on the main road near me eulogising the hunger strike terrorists?
And are you saying Irish language signage is ok but union flags are not?

Irish language signage and the Union jack used to triumphalise or intimidate have no similarity.

Time for Unionism or elements of it to grow up and stop with the silly comparisons.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 6:06pm

downcow wrote: »

Are you really saying that it is fine for you to enjoy watching England or Cavan to lose because they are your neighbour but it different when I enjoy watching roi lose?

Your last para really shows the problem. You don’t accept I am British even though the gfa says you must.

Never said any such thing.
yoi can bet everything you own every single one of those people voted for brexit see you as Irish. They can rarely summon enough intelligence or knowledge to know Northern Ireland’s a separate entity. *they* would be pretty unhappy seeing their flag at such events with such horrific behaviour.

Just to add. 67% of the Conservative party recently polled said they’d be happy to be rid of Northern Ireland if it meant getting brexit it through.

That’s gotta sting eh?

RobMc59 · 15-07-2019 6:15pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Never said any such thing.
yoi can bet everything you own every single one of those people voted for brexit see you as Irish. They can rarely summon enough intelligence or knowledge to know Northern Ireland’s a separate entity. *they* would be pretty unhappy seeing their flag at such events with such horrific behaviour.

I think it`s you`d be in for a rude awakening in regards to what British people think of the unionists in NI-there are many people in Scotland and England who feel a close affinity with them-they are British,they stood shoulder to shoulder in times of trouble and they have every right to fly the Union flag.

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 6:20pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think it`s you`d be in for a rude awakening in regards to what British people think of the unionists in NI-there are many people in Scotland and England who feel a close affinity with them-they are British,they stood shoulder to shoulder in times of trouble and they have every right to fly the Union flag.

These the same Unionists that the Tories have tried to sell out 3 times so far over Brexit?

downcow · 15-07-2019 6:20pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Irish language signage and the Union jack used to triumphalise or intimidate have no similarity.

Time for Unionism or elements of it to grow up and stop with the silly comparisons.

Francie I am being honest and sincere and trying to understand you.

We live in a contested society in the north.
It’s my guess that most nationalists who put up Irish signage do so to represent their identity and culture. And I know that most unionist who put up union flags do so to represent their identity and culture.

I guess many nationalists feel like the union flags have been put up to mark territory, claim ownership and even intentionally antagonise.
I know that many unionists feel like the Irish signs have been put up to mark territory, claim ownership and even intentionally antagonise

That’s the comparison for me. Does that make any sense to others on here? Or are you with francie ie unionist = bad, Irish = good

_blaaz · 15-07-2019 6:21pm

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate your input. But help me here. You don’t want support shown for soldier f who is currently innocent.

Its known he literally shot an injured person crawling on the ground in the back

People supporting him,in knowlegde of this fact are supporting murderers and in no position to critise anyone for supporting republican (or loyalist?) Terrorists imo

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 6:26pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think it`s you`d be in for a rude awakening in regards to what British people think of the unionists in NI-there are many people in Scotland and England who feel a close affinity with them-they are British,they stood shoulder to shoulder in times of trouble and they have every right to fly the Union flag.

Times of trouble? When was that exactly?

downcow · 15-07-2019 6:26pm

_blaaz wrote: »

Its known he literally shot an injured person crawling on the ground in the back

People supporting him,in knowlegde of this fact are supporting murderers and in no position to critise anyone for supporting republican (or loyalist?) Terrorists imo

Many things are ‘known’ here I know my ira neighbours who killed my unionist neighbours but they haven’t been convicted in a court of law so I have to get on with things. And if they were arrested tomorrow I would have no problem with graffiti appearing on walls in support of their release which no doubt it would. Soldier f is currently innocent

armaghlad · 15-07-2019 6:27pm

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate your input. But help me here. You don’t want support shown for soldier f who is currently innocent. Would you call for the removal of the illegal shrine to people found guilty of sectarian killings in my town? Or the stuff on the main road near me eulogising the hunger strike terrorists?
And are you saying Irish language signage is ok but union flags are not?

Here’s where we differ. Soldier F is not innocent. He has already stated via inquiry that he killed four civilians and shot several others. Whether that constitutes murder is what he is soon to be tried of. So, yes, he’s technically innocent of murder, but he still quite blatantly emptied his magazine into several teenagers and a man waving a white handkerchief. I find it incredibly crass, antagonistic, insensitive and insulting for him to receive such widespread open support, especially in mixed town/village centres. If we are going to talk about illegal memorials, there are countless examples on both sides in housing executive estates on gable walls and council land. I’m not calling for removal of such memorials on either side. As for the union flag, to be clear, I don’t support it being flown from lampposts, not least in so-called shared space, such as my town centre, ditto tricolour. Unless there is some form of pre-agreed protocol.

_blaaz · 15-07-2019 6:28pm

downcow wrote: »

Many things are ‘known’ here I know my ira neighbours who killed my unionist neighbours but they haven’t been convicted in a court of law so I have to get on with things. And if they were arrested tomorrow I would have no problem with graffiti appearing on walls in support of their release which no doubt it would. Soldier f is currently innocent

Meh....just saying those who support soldier f are supporting murderers (how you think this is up for debate,is beyond me)

RobMc59 · 15-07-2019 6:30pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Times of trouble? When was that exactly?

WW2 for a start,Belfast was blitzed along with other major UK cities -NI soldiers served with honour in the defence of Britain.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 6:32pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

WW2 for a start,Belfast was blitzed along with other major UK cities -NI soldiers served with honour in the defence of Britain.

I must have imagined the memorial to the 60,000 irish troops that joined the British army for wwii. And the German bombs dropped In Dublin and Wexford.

Belfast always the victim alone though eh?

J Mysterio · 15-07-2019 6:33pm

downcow wrote: »

Many things are ‘known’ here I know my ira neighbours who killed my unionist neighbours but they haven’t been convicted in a court of law so I have to get on with things. And if they were arrested tomorrow I would have no problem with graffiti appearing on walls in support of their release which no doubt it would. Soldier f is currently innocent

Yeah, this is where you have lost me also. There is no defending 'Soldier F'.

RobMc59 · 15-07-2019 6:36pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I must have imagined the memorial to the 60,000 irish troops that joined the British army for wwii. And the German bombs dropped In Dublin and Wexford.

Belfast always the victim alone though eh?

I've met Irish men who fought in the British army against Germany and would never disrespect their bravery and sacrifice.

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 6:37pm

downcow wrote: »

Francie I am being honest and sincere and trying to understand you.

We live in a contested society in the north.
It’s my guess that most nationalists who put up Irish signage do so to represent their identity and culture. And I know that most unionist who put up union flags do so to represent their identity and culture.

I guess many nationalists feel like the union flags have been put up to mark territory, claim ownership and even intentionally antagonise.
I know that many unionists feel like the Irish signs have been put up to mark territory, claim ownership and even intentionally antagonise

That’s the comparison for me. Does that make any sense to others on here? Or are you with francie ie unionist = bad, Irish = good

Nobody wants to put up Irish signage to threaten or intimidate Unionists. There is even a clause in the proposals that will allow unionists who feel threaten by a street or townland being called by it's Irish name to object and not have it put up.

Street Signage
Legislation should be put in place at local council level to ensure that bilingual
street signage should be available in Irish where there is a demand for it.

https://cnag.ie/images/Acht_Gaeilge_%C3%B3_Thuaidh/15M%C3%812017_Pl%C3%A9ch%C3%A1ip%C3%A9is_ar_Acht_Gaeilge_%C3%B3_Thuaidh.pdf

Unionists wish to display their flag where it isn't wanted and have indulged in much much violence attempting to get that right, as well as parading where they are not wanted.

There is no comparison here

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 6:44pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've met Irish men who fought in the British army against Germany and would never disrespect their bravery and sacrifice.

The war memorial in islandbridge is very grand. But the one in glasnevin is better. Lot more subtle. Plus Glasnevin is always worth a a visit

FullSizeRender-1.jpg?itok=HX3zBAbY

FrancieBrady · 15-07-2019 6:57pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The war memorial in islandbridge is very grand. But the one in glasnevin is better. Lot more subtle. Plus Glasnevin is always worth a a visit

Contrary to the perceived notions about DeValera and the new Irish state, the Islandbridge project was a very much thought out gesture to the sacrifices made.

DeValera's 1930's government made a very substantial fund available to build it in a time of little state money.

Sunny Disposition · 15-07-2019 7:01pm

Don’t get the banners up supporting Soldier F, in advance of a trial. If he’s guilty he’s at least as bad as an IRA man. How can the Unionists not see that? Hope there’s a silent majority of them who do see it?

Stop moaning ffs · 15-07-2019 7:04pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Contrary to the perceived notions about DeValera and the new Irish state, the Islandbridge project was a very much thought out gesture to the sacrifices made.

DeValera's 1930's government made a very substantial fund available to build it in a time of little state money.

Particularly weird when you look at arbour hill. All those patriots executed by the Brits and dumped in effectively a mass grave.
They’re good at respecting the dead normally. Just not their own in this case.

downcow · 15-07-2019 7:16pm

armaghlad wrote: »

Here’s where we differ. Soldier F is not innocent. He has already stated via inquiry that he killed four civilians and shot several others. Whether that constitutes murder is what he is soon to be tried of. So, yes, he’s technically innocent of murder, but he still quite blatantly emptied his magazine into several teenagers and a man waving a white handkerchief. I find it incredibly crass, antagonistic, insensitive and insulting for him to receive such widespread open support, especially in mixed town/village centres. If we are going to talk about illegal memorials, there are countless examples on both sides in housing executive estates on gable walls and council land. I’m not calling for removal of such memorials on either side. As for the union flag, to be clear, I don’t support it being flown from lampposts, not least in so-called shared space, such as my town centre, ditto tricolour. Unless there is some form of pre-agreed protocol.

So you completely avoided addressing equivalents. And I may differ but will have respect for you if you are consistent.
How Dow you feel about the incredibly crass, antagonistic, insensitive and insulting hunger strike banners. Are they any different than the soldier f ones.?
How do you feel about all the Irish language stuff going up on street corners etc?

The glorious 12th

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