The glorious 12th

Odhinn wrote: »

Big Ian wasn't the only party leader connected to an orange order, independent or otherwise

https://www.google.com/search?q=ian+paisley+and+david+trimble&client=firefox-b-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOg73phrfjAhV8XRUIHYVLDvIQ_AUIECgB&biw=1600&bih=887#imgrc=7kN9YocIzT7YFM:

It's plain for all to see what influence the various OO's had on northern Irish society and politics.

The constant limbo dancing to try and deny that this is an organisation/ethos that is primarily motivated by religious and political suprematism is funny to read.
It is dying in membership because people simply are not interested in that anymore...i.e. progress.

armaghlad wrote: »

Here’s my two cents:
- I live in a town where according to the 2011 census *at least* 62% of the population cannot even become a member of the OO institution ie are Catholic or from a Catholic background. It is safe to assume then, that the majority of my town do not support Loyalist parades. It’s ok though, I still support their right to march. It’s their town too after all.
- Every summer at the beginning of July, a UVF-aligned flute band (who regularly parade with the local lodges and includes dual members) will creep out under the cover of darkness and, under the watchful eye of the PSNI, erect copious amounts of flags, bunting etc. These range from Union flags and NI flags on lampposts, Israel flags, paramilitary flags and flags and banners showing support for the bloodthirsty parachute regiment and suspected mass murderer known as Soldier F. There’s also an impressive Orange arch which I have little issue with. I feel this is incredibly antagonistic towards the silent majority in my town however because it has been tolerated/accommodated for so long it is somehow still seen as acceptable by the OO.
- The main 12th July demonstration for my County was held in a different town 15 miles away and it is my understanding that each town hosts the main county demonstration every 11 years. Why the need then to “decorate” my town so thoroughly when it isn’t hosting the main demonstration? Why feel the need to erect so many flags and offensive banners, when nearby “unionist” towns have nowhere near as many? Can the OO not call out this intolerance, they seem quite happy to parade under these offensive trappings.
- Why can’t you be like Crossgar, County Down. They have the village kitted out in red, white and blue for their 12th parade. By sunrise the next morning it is all removed. Why can’t this level of respect be shown?
Before anyone points out to me the difference between bands and the OO, I am well aware of the distinction. The OO however wield significant influence on these bands, after all it is they who invite them to parade at Orange marches.

thats very honest and helpful.
I know there is many in the OO and unionist community who agree with you and would like to see the Twelfth only being held in very predominately protestant towns. I get their thinking but i completely disagree. I live on the outskirts of a town which was 40% protestant and now is less than 5% protestant as they all moved in fear during the troubles. It is also 'our town' to the significant number of protestants living in the rural community and has an OO hall and two protestant churches and school. I think it is very sad that our culture is not allowed to be expressed in our town one day every 15 years which is all that we ask - but it is not allowed. Down the road is Kilkeel which has a very predominantly protestant town centre and yet it has a number of nationalist parades each year including and Dissident IRA aligned band. This to me is much healthier.
My main demonstration this year was Crossgar that you mention although i didnt go. And yes there is an agreement in the towns around me that flags come down quickly. In my nearest mixed town when the twelfth is being held the flags go up in the early hours of the twelfth morning and come down late afternoon immediate after the parade, yet last year i still heard catholics complaining about why they had to go up at all (this is not replicated for the easter rising parade when the flags are up for weeks).

So i don't disgree with you but the flags is a thorny issue. You probably view a union flag flying as marking territory and showing who thinks they are in charge. I understand that. But most of my community see Irish road signs in exactly the same light, as marking territory and showing who thinks they are in charge. I would love there was more genuine respect for each others culture, identity and celebrations - but it is going to be a very long road

Edit i just reread you post and see the isrealie stuff etc, and i know this is whataboutery, but in my town the irish tricolour and Palestinian flag flies 365 days a year and there is an illegal monument on council owned land to republican mass killers who have murdered members of our community. Its just all very complex and some on here would like to paint it as those nasty prods (i do not include you in that - i appreciated your post)

downcow wrote: »

Have you strayed off a nature thread - If not then it is pretty offensive stuff but does highlight bigotry and save me have to demonstrate it to people

I haven't strayed off anywhere, I was trying to find a biological reason as to why a community of people could behave in such a backward way. It's well known that inbreeding causes very strange behaviour patterns.

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Are Orange Order marches culture? I wouldn’t put Paddy’s Day parades as part of Irish Catholic culture really, nice way for kids to pass an hour or so, but you couldn’t say it’s an important part of culture.

The parades, no. But they (and the rest of the stuff on the day) give a chance to celebrate the stuff that does constitute Irish culture. I'm not a fan of parades as a rule, so I'm not hugely well versed on what they're like but the few I have been to had themes to do with Irish history or famous Irish figures. Then there's other stuff like the Céilí Mór which is more directly linked to cultural activities.

I wouldn't consider the OO marches their 'culture', in the same way I don't consider Paddy's Parades our culture. But both of them are a tradition, and used to celebrate culture. Whether you then consider them important traditions falls down to personal opinion. Like I said, I loathe parades but if enough people enjoy it as a way to celebrate being Irish on Paddy's Day then I'd consider it fairly important.

Odhinn wrote: »

Paisley was in the indendent order, primarily because the main order was almost synonymous with the UUP.

check you facts. I think you'll find this is simply wishful thinking. I am fairly certain he was not in the Independent OO either even though Francie is still claiming that, having accepted that he didn't form it

Odhinn wrote: »

You might check post 609..............

Thanks
So if you have checked and now found he definitely was not a member of the independent OO, could you do me a favour and point Francie to the facts as he thinks i am making it up. - I am sure he will then come on and retract that as well

RobMc59 wrote: »

Like any average person I'm not obsessed with a UI vote-i'm interested in NI,it is after all part of the UK.A casual look at UI survey statistics appear unclear and don't appear to be particularly in favour of it which seems to fly in the face of what you keep saying.
For someone who takes offence at something as innocuous as the England football team(as pointed out by folkstonian some time ago)your denial about hating everything British is ingenious and frankly laughable.

I take offence very specifically at English soccer supporters behaviour abroad and link that to a lot of what is happening in British society in general.

I have the same tribal, fun and sporting dislike of England in rugby, football etc as I have to my nearest neighbours Cavan in GAA.

Boo Hoo, if that upsets you tbh.

There are many many aspects of British culture that I cherish and am deeply interested in. I have many many British friends.

I cannot prove that here, but what can I do.

And you'd be better taking your points about a UI to the correct on topic thread.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I take offence very specifically at English soccer supporters behaviour abroad and link that to a lot of what is happening in British society in general.

I have the same tribal, fun and sporting dislike of England in rugby, football etc as I have to my nearest neighbours Cavan in GAA.

Boo Hoo, if that upsets you tbh.

There are many many aspects of British culture that I cherish and am deeply interested in. I have many many British friends.

I cannot prove that here, but what can I do.

And you'd be better taking your points about a UI to the correct on topic thread.

Francie, I hate to be on your back but you are doing it again. Lumping all English supporters in together. I have met many on my football trips and have yet to meet an English or ROI supporter who was badly behaved. I have spent nights in pubs with both with no issues.
But i understand you neighbourly competitiveness - nothing gives me more pleasure than watching ROI lose :-)

downcow wrote: »

Francie, I hate to be on your back but you are doing it again. Lumping all English supporters in together. I have met many on my football trips and have yet to meet an English or ROI supporter who was badly behaved. I have spent nights in pubs with both with no issues.
But i understand you neighbourly competitiveness - nothing gives me more pleasure than watching ROI lose :-)

Jesus, are you in denial of English football supporters criminal, belligerent behaviour around the world? Lordy.

Rob referred to my posting on the matter, go find it and you will see that I do NOT target all of England's support.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus, are you in denial of English football supporters criminal, belligerent behaviour around the world? Lordy.

Rob referred to my posting on the matter, go find it and you will see that I do NOT target all of England's support.

It really can't be denied that English football fans are the worst bloody fans in the world for mayhem and destruction. But that's OT.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus, are you in denial of English football supporters criminal, belligerent behaviour around the world? Lordy.

Rob referred to my posting on the matter, go find it and you will see that I do NOT target all of England's support.

Your language suggests that all english football supporters are a problem. I am telling you i have had significant personal experience of them and they have all been excellent experiences. I am very aware there is a fringe element that are a problem. Indeed many nations have a similar problem but England seems to attract a particularly difficult element but they are a tiny minority. You should try not to label entire groups by the actions of a few

downcow wrote: »

Your language suggests that all english football supporters are a problem. I am telling you i have had significant personal experience of them and they have all been excellent experiences. I am very aware there is a fringe element that are a problem. Indeed many nations have a similar problem but England seems to attract a particularly difficult element but they are a tiny minority. You should try not to label entire groups by the actions of a few

In fairness, English fans have a well deserved worldwide reputation for being an absolute disaster.

I would have sympathy for the ordinary fans, but they are drowned out by the thugs and hooligans, of which there are many - I couldn't characterize them as a tiny minority. You really needn't/ shouldn't defend them. But, again, off topic.

downcow wrote: »

I have learnt something from you Francie after all. Clearly he was a member of the OO but even though i am 55 he had left before i was born which would explain why i didnt know that he was a member in the distant past. I was wrong on that point - so sincere apologies.
Now maybe you could admit that you were wrong about him being a member of the independent OO.

I couldn't really care less if he was a member of the IOO or not, he addressed it every year took part in it's marches and the marches (particularly the contentious ones) of the OO.
To all intents and purposes, he was the epitomy of the tenets and beliefs of the OO, that he had a spat with them is beside the general point I was making about the PM's of northern Ireland and the leaders of the DUP.

Now so far as guilding the lillies, I have already been clear that i wasn't his biggest fan. He was divisive and arrogant and made many speeches that lead people to prison. I have to accept he also spoke a lot of truth at times. He also changed quite dramatically in later life and fair play to him for that. so don't paint it as though i am sticking up for him

I never said you were sticking up for him. You are sticking up for the OO, which believes all the things he did about other religions, particularly the Catholic church.

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

From going to Ireland away games this past year, our own away following is getting just like them. Young teens/early 20s all coked off their head (notice it more and more every trip)

And that somehow excuses the English supporters who have decades long reputations now?

armaghlad wrote: »

I just think there needs to be more open dialogue over things like flags. In principle, I don’t oppose Orange marches - especially not in mixed areas. I don’t mind or oppose bunting or arches. But this flag on every lamppost carry-on is not only disrespectful to the perpetrators own flag, it’s also antagonistic to many people and I include the Irish tricolour. I have no issue with flags on flagpoles where they belong. Palestine/Israel is slightly different, I wholeheartedly condemn the apartheid/racist state of Israel and view it very much in the same light as apartheid South Africa, possibly worse. Again you may differ on that but I struggle to see the relevance to Orange culture with flying the Israel flag, it seems to further assert my opinion that much of Loyalist culture is about antagonism and triumphalism because republicans support Palestine (see also Soldier F/Paras love-in) I think there are better ways to show solidarity with Palestine than flying their flag on a lamppost btw.

In general I think Loyalist culture needs sanitised but that’s just my opinion. The whole flags thing and even Irish road signs etc, are often ignored and used as a way to attack Sinn Féin. The fact that a legitimate and valid concern is raised is usually automatically dismissed because SF have raised it, despite it often having widespread support from SDLP, Alliance etc. Case in point, the parachute regiment flags and banner erected in my town, SF were accused by the DUP of being “intolerant” for wanting them removed! It’s this sort of arrogance that makes a lot of people in my town fed up and more and more unwilling to compromise in future

I appreciate your input. But help me here. You don’t want support shown for soldier f who is currently innocent. Would you call for the removal of the illegal shrine to people found guilty of sectarian killings in my town? Or the stuff on the main road near me eulogising the hunger strike terrorists?
And are you saying Irish language signage is ok but union flags are not?