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The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

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    #1022
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,453 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    da_miser wrote: »
    The one good thing the €350 a week has done is shown the country that politicians are full of shît, they where constantly telling us they had no money to fix this that and the other, and then POOF billions where pulled out of thin air.
    They could have done this for the hospitals and housing crisis in years past but chose not to , questions should be asked.

    This is all borrowed money, not money from thin air, which will have to be paid back at some point so that is complete nonsense.
    Now they could have done more for hospitals and housing that didn't involve spending a shed load of borrowed money but the two scenarios are like chalk and cheese.

    We are in the midst of a global pandemic so there are things happening that are unprecedented.

    Your lack of understanding is understandable.


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    #1023
    da_miser
    Registered Users Posts: 640 ✭✭✭da_miser


    kippy wrote: »
    This is all borrowed money, not money from thin air, which will have to be paid back at some point so that is complete nonsense.
    Now they could have done more for hospitals and housing that didn't involve spending a shed load of borrowed money but the two scenarios are like chalk and cheese.

    Your lack of understanding is understandable.

    We all know its borrowed, so why did they not borrow money last year to sort out the housing crisis?
    Why is this not being asked?


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    #1024
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    da_miser wrote: »
    We all know its borrowed, so why did they not borrow money last year to sort out the housing crisis?
    Why is this not being asked?

    What housing crisis? People choosing to live in hotels until they get their desired foreva home doesn’t constitute a crisis. The return of hundreds of short term lets to the long term rental market might just be such foreva homes.


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    #1025
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,453 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    da_miser wrote: »
    We all know its borrowed, so why did they not borrow money last year to sort out the housing crisis?
    Why is this not being asked?
    We borrowed a few billion euro last year.


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    #1026
    angela1711
    Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭angela1711


    What about all those people that are not able to go back to work due to all child care facilities being closed for the foreseeable future ?? People are not allowed to hire baby sitters either. One of my co workers won’t be able to go back to work until September when the schools are suppose to reopen. How many hundreds of thousands are in the same boat?


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    #1027
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    da_miser wrote: »
    The one good thing the €350 a week has done is shown the country that politicians are full of shît, they where constantly telling us they had no money to fix this that and the other, and then POOF billions where pulled out of thin air.
    They could have done this for the hospitals and housing crisis in years past but chose not to , questions should be asked.

    We’ve borrowed all this money and it all has to be paid back with interest. Why don’t you understand this? Where do you think we’re going to get the money to pay it back?


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    #1028
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    da_miser wrote: »
    We all know its borrowed, so why did they not borrow money last year to sort out the housing crisis?
    Why is this not being asked?

    But we have a health crisis too. Will we borrow money to fix that too? So...€10 billion for housing, €10 billion for health and now about €30 billion for covid. That’s on top of the €40 billion we owe for the 2008 crash. Anything else you want to borrow for without ever suggesting how we can pay it back?


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    #1029
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    One advantage of the €350 is that it’s meant we’re not seeing the mass protests that Spain and Poland are experiencing today.


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    #1030
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    This is both borrowed money, and money from thin air - the ECB's QE program, indirectly leads to government borrowing at low interest rates, being facilitated by the ECB money printing.

    Government finances do not work like household finances - governments do not typically pay down the stock of borrowed money - they roll it over forever, letting Public Debt vs GDP reduce, through GDP growth.

    Low-interest Public Debt is simply not a problem, economically - stuff like the 30 year bonds given out lately, present no risk at all to public finances.

    The problem is EU deficit rules. These rules are purely political, and make no economic sense. They have been suspended during the coronavirus crisis, but they are going to be used to try to force austerity once the immediate crisis is over.

    The recent announcement of EU debt mutualization (which could help avoid austerity) was only a non-committal announcement in name only - there was no breakthrough or movement in e.g. Germany's opposition to that - it is only a commitment to begin negotiations to agree a watered down plan that comes nowhere near real debt mutualization, and to put the label of 'debt mutualization' on it.


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    #1031
    2ndcoming
    Registered Users Posts: 3,569 ✭✭✭2ndcoming


    How on earth are these awful threads so constantly successful on Boards??

    Can anyone just come out with any woeful Mail On Sunday take and expect to get 35+ pages out of it?

    To quote Jules in Pulp Fiction, that's some repugnant sh1t.

    A lot of bitter old geezers on this rock.


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    #1032
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    splinter65 wrote: »
    But we have a health crisis too. Will we borrow money to fix that too? So...€10 billion for housing, €10 billion for health and now about €30 billion for covid. That’s on top of the €40 billion we owe for the 2008 crash. Anything else you want to borrow for without ever suggesting how we can pay it back?

    Nationalising private banking debt after the 2008 crash cost the state 64 billion Euros. The net cost after taking equity was 42 billion.
    The annual interest on that debt is 1.3 billion.

    After 2008 we borrowed for several years to keep the show on the road. Opportunities for welfare and public sector reform were missed during all that borrowing. We borrowed heavily right up until 2016 I believe before we finally hit a budget surplus. As a result our national debt is 200+ billion. Massive.

    That national debt is why we are doubly screwed this time around. I actually cannot see how we can recover from this given it's a worldwide economic depression, emigration is not really an option and tourism is 10% of GDP. Where will the GDP growth come from???

    The health budget was already very generous but the problem was we were wasting a lot of it because the HSE is a monstrous bureaucracy.
    Now we have to increase that budget significantly.

    The populist FF+FG+Greens+IND will make no difficult decisions because that is their form. It's a disgrace we still don't have a government after voting on February 8th.
    SF's Doherty was on the radio this morning say the government should cover all lost salary/wages i.e. not cap at 350. Utter madness.
    I think borrowing interest rates will go up over time and we will be close to going bankrupt. Be prepared.


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    #1033
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,130 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    da_miser wrote: »
    The one good thing the €350 a week has done is shown the country that politicians are full of shît, they where constantly telling us they had no money to fix this that and the other, and then POOF billions where pulled out of thin air.
    They could have done this for the hospitals and housing crisis in years past but chose not to , questions should be asked.

    Not pulled out of thin air - borrowed, to be repaid.


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    #1034
    Meeoow
    Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Meeoow


    Mary's doing pretty well working 20 hrs a week. I only get 130 euros more than her a week for working 39 hours.
    splinter65 wrote: »
    Within 10 day’s of the payment being in place I was already being told by my local SW office that there would be a clawback of any monies anyone who was already on a SW payment got that was in excess of what they normally got.
    For example:
    Mary is on OPFP with 2 kids 6 and 4.
    She’s working 20 hours per week @€;11 per hour so €220 wages. She has no maintenance.
    Pre covid her weekly income comprised of
    €247.50 OPFP
    +
    €220. Wages
    =
    €467.50
    +
    €100. WFP
    =
    €567.50

    Covid lockdown hits and she’s laid off. Wages gone. €350 PUP instead of the €220. OPFP stays the same. WFP stays the same.
    Weekly income now is
    €247.50 OPFP+
    €350. PUP+
    €100. WFP
    =
    €697.50
    So she’s €130 better off with covid.
    I don’t know if SW have already readjusted her OPFP but if they haven’t they soon will because they’ll have to.


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    #1035
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    da_miser wrote: »
    We all know its borrowed, so why did they not borrow money last year to sort out the housing crisis?
    Why is this not being asked?

    So we're borrowing to givw 350 per week to people, but you want to ask why we don't give out 300k houses to people?


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    #1036
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Meeoow wrote: »
    Mary's doing pretty well working 20 hrs a week. I only get 130 euros more than her a week for working 39 hours.

    Don’t forget she has no partner living with her to contribute to the household in any way either financially or childminding, cooking shopping cleaning etc.
    But your right it’s not bad.


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    #1037
    all about the mane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭all about the mane


    da_miser wrote: »
    The one good thing the €350 a week has done is shown the country that politicians are full of shît, they where constantly telling us they had no money to fix this that and the other, and then POOF billions where pulled out of thin air.
    They could have done this for the hospitals and housing crisis in years past but chose not to , questions should be asked.

    The money was not 'pulled out of thin air'. You do understand that?


  • Options
    #1038
    Sweet.Science
    Registered Users Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭Sweet.Science


    Snow Garden wrote: »
    Nationalising private banking debt after the 2008 crash cost the state 64 billion Euros. The net cost after taking equity was 42 billion.
    The annual interest on that debt is 1.3 billion.

    After 2008 we borrowed for several years to keep the show on the road. Opportunities for welfare and public sector reform were missed during all that borrowing. We borrowed heavily right up until 2016 I believe before we finally hit a budget surplus. As a result our national debt is 200+ billion. Massive.

    That national debt is why we are doubly screwed this time around. I actually cannot see how we can recover from this given it's a worldwide economic depression, emigration is not really an option and tourism is 10% of GDP. Where will the GDP growth come from???

    The health budget was already very generous but the problem was we were wasting a lot of it because the HSE is a monstrous bureaucracy.
    Now we have to increase that budget significantly.

    The populist FF+FG+Greens+IND will make no difficult decisions because that is their form. It's a disgrace we still don't have a government after voting on February 8th.
    SF's Doherty was on the radio this morning say the government should cover all lost salary/wages i.e. not cap at 350. Utter madness.
    I think borrowing interest rates will go up over time and we will be close to going bankrupt. Be prepared.

    Haha that Doherty fella is delusional. Why do they give him airtime .


  • Options
    #1039
    addaword
    Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭addaword


    Snow Garden wrote: »
    SF's Doherty was on the radio this morning say the government should cover all lost salary/wages i.e. not cap at 350. Utter madness.
    I think borrowing interest rates will go up over time and we will be close to going bankrupt. Be prepared.

    In the UK the government there are covering wages to 75% of what a person was on, I think? So if a person was on 50k a year they will pay 37.5k? Or am I mistaken?


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    #1040
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    all about the mane wrote: »
    The money was not 'pulled out of thin air'. You do understand that?

    You have to understand that this is the mindset of the voter who has been brainwashed by the left into thinking that there is literally trillions of euros lying around, just FG/FF want to keep it for themselves.


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    #1041
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    addaword wrote: »
    In the UK the government there are covering wages to 75% of what a person was on, I think? So if a person was on 50k a year they will pay 37.5k? Or am I mistaken?

    They have loads of money. UK us in no way financially comparable with here.


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    #1042
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    addaword wrote: »
    In the UK the government there are covering wages to 75% of what a person was on, I think? So if a person was on 50k a year they will pay 37.5k? Or am I mistaken?

    Mistaken based on what a quick Google search finds, 80% of salary but with a max of 2500 a month/625 a week, while the SNP are calling for UBI to be implemented

    Interestingly Spain, which a lot of posters want us to emulate in terms of easing of restrictions and save the economy are bringing in a basic income that the Spanish government hope to make permanent and as part of the deal to do so are also looking at a total repeal of a 2012 labor reform that, among other measures, made it cheaper for companies to fire workers.
    I doubt these are actions the same posters would also like to emulate.


  • Options
    #1043
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You have to understand that this is the mindset of the voter who has been brainwashed by the left into thinking that there is literally trillions of euros lying around, just FG/FF want to keep it for themselves.

    Britain finished paying off its WW1 debts in 2015.

    We could easily create a sustainable long-term solution to the housing crisis per the Vienna model by borrowing.

    Right now, rent subsidies, hotel bills, homeless shelters etc cost the government hundreds of millions and its sunk money - now that’s unsustainable.

    Significant investment in public housing would make life more affordable for everyone. It would be a long-term investment unlike the above. In about 25 years it would start paying for itself.

    Instead of allowing people living in public housing to buy their homes, which was a fatal mistake, you give them secure, long-term leases and reinvest profits.

    The system works perfectly in Vienna where 60% of people live in public housing that is well designed and laid out, suitable for families and integrated within communities.

    I’d much sooner borrow billions to finance that than to continue funding HAP schemes forever and a day.


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    #1044
    Meeoow
    Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Meeoow


    Neither do I. I'm a single parent too. I worked hard at college and gained plenty of work experience to earn what I do. I'm quite shocked to think that Mary works half the hours I work for not much less than me.
    splinter65 wrote: »
    Don’t forget she has no partner living with her to contribute to the household in any way either financially or childminding, cooking shopping cleaning etc.
    But your right it’s not bad.


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    #1045
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Meeoow wrote: »
    Neither do I. I'm a single parent too. I worked hard at college and gained plenty of work experience to earn what I do. I'm quite shocked to think that Mary works half the hours I work for not much less than me.

    Sure I know. The only thing is that it comes to an end when the youngest child is 7. That comes around pretty quickly. You’ll probably be climbing the pay scale at that stage. Congrats on all you’ve achieved. I admire any parent of either gender doing it on their own. It’s very difficult.


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    #1046
    coolshannagh28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    Snow Garden wrote: »
    Nationalising private banking debt after the 2008 crash cost the state 64 billion Euros. The net cost after taking equity was 42 billion.
    The annual interest on that debt is 1.3 billion.

    After 2008 we borrowed for several years to keep the show on the road. Opportunities for welfare and public sector reform were missed during all that borrowing. We borrowed heavily right up until 2016 I believe before we finally hit a budget surplus. As a result our national debt is 200+ billion. Massive.

    That national debt is why we are doubly screwed this time around. I actually cannot see how we can recover from this given it's a worldwide economic depression, emigration is not really an option and tourism is 10% of GDP. Where will the GDP growth come from???

    The health budget was already very generous but the problem was we were wasting a lot of it because the HSE is a monstrous bureaucracy.
    Now we have to increase that budget significantly.

    The populist FF+FG+Greens+IND will make no difficult decisions because that is their form. It's a disgrace we still don't have a government after voting on February 8th.
    SF's Doherty was on the radio this morning say the government should cover all lost salary/wages i.e. not cap at 350. Utter madness.
    I think borrowing interest rates will go up over time and we will be close to going bankrupt. Be prepared.

    I think this is the reason Paschal has been bleating in the last few days , if things run true to form the Germans will veto the punch bowl and the PIGS will again be found to have been swimming with no togs.


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    #1047
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Snow Garden wrote: »
    Nationalising private banking debt after the 2008 crash cost the state 64 billion Euros. The net cost after taking equity was 42 billion.
    The annual interest on that debt is 1.3 billion.

    After 2008 we borrowed for several years to keep the show on the road. Opportunities for welfare and public sector reform were missed during all that borrowing. We borrowed heavily right up until 2016 I believe before we finally hit a budget surplus. As a result our national debt is 200+ billion. Massive.

    That national debt is why we are doubly screwed this time around. I actually cannot see how we can recover from this given it's a worldwide economic depression, emigration is not really an option and tourism is 10% of GDP. Where will the GDP growth come from???

    The health budget was already very generous but the problem was we were wasting a lot of it because the HSE is a monstrous bureaucracy.
    Now we have to increase that budget significantly.

    The populist FF+FG+Greens+IND will make no difficult decisions because that is their form. It's a disgrace we still don't have a government after voting on February 8th.
    SF's Doherty was on the radio this morning say the government should cover all lost salary/wages i.e. not cap at 350. Utter madness.
    I think borrowing interest rates will go up over time and we will be close to going bankrupt. Be prepared.
    GDP = Consumption + Investment + Government Spending + (Exports - Imports).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Expenditure_approach

    The government can easily keep the economy and GDP ticking over, by employing everybody that is unemployed, into a Job Guarantee program - which inherently boosts the private sector back to full activity, way faster than austerity (which means the Job Guarantee helps boost the private sector, which helps the private sector employ everybody back out of the Job Guarantee - at which point, the economy is fully recovered).

    The stock of national debt doesn't mean anything - it's just a meaningless number - it's the lifetime of the bonds that make up that debt, and the interest rate on them, which matters - and there is nothing in the composition of the debt, which presents any trouble to government finances.

    Changes in the interest rates are largely grounded in the ECB interest rate - which is not going to go far above negative anytime this decade, most likely - and changes in the interest rate do not affect the current stock of debt, only rolled-over debt.


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    #1048
    Lollipop95
    Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Lollipop95


    I was recently made redundant as a result of this but I will be getting paid for another month. Do I apply for the payment now or the date I receive my last payment from the company?


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    #1049
    Smegging hell
    Registered Users Posts: 460 ✭✭Smegging hell


    Lollipop95 wrote: »
    I was recently made redundant as a result of this but I will be getting paid for another month. Do I apply for the payment now or the date I receive my last payment from the company?

    You apply now and enter the day you last worked in the role. That's what the Department of Social Protection said when I emailed them asking about this; it's the last day you worked, not the last day you were paid.


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    #1050
    coolshannagh28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    KyussB wrote: »
    GDP = Consumption + Investment + Government Spending + (Exports - Imports).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product#Expenditure_approach

    The government can easily keep the economy and GDP ticking over, by employing everybody that is unemployed, into a Job Guarantee program - which inherently boosts the private sector back to full activity, way faster than austerity (which means the Job Guarantee helps boost the private sector, which helps the private sector employ everybody back out of the Job Guarantee - at which point, the economy is fully recovered).

    The stock of national debt doesn't mean anything - it's just a meaningless number - it's the lifetime of the bonds that make up that debt, and the interest rate on them, which matters - and there is nothing in the composition of the debt, which presents any trouble to government finances.

    Changes in the interest rates are largely grounded in the ECB interest rate - which is not going to go far above negative anytime this decade, most likely - and changes in the interest rate do not affect the current stock of debt, only rolled-over debt.

    I would agree with this and would like to know why Paschal is crying about interest rates when they are only going negative in the foreseeable future .


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    #1051
    enricoh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,854 ✭✭✭enricoh


    I see on the front page of the Sunday times overseas organised crime gangs are exploiting loopholes in the system and claiming multiple payments.
    Ah sure they might come here and spend it on a holiday!


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