The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

Banana Republic 1

DebDynamite wrote: »

You obviously know more then, so please enlighten me. I’ll ask my original question: so undocumented workers who did not have PPS numbers and paying no tax aren’t now being given them in confidence to allow them to claim the COVID payment?

That’s a statement.

splinter65

DebDynamite wrote: »

You obviously know more then, so please enlighten me. I’ll ask my original question: so undocumented workers who did not have PPS numbers and paying no tax aren’t now being given them in confidence to allow them to claim the COVID payment?

That was not your original question though was it. You didn’t have a question. You stated as fact that illegal immigrants didn’t need PPSNs to claim covid. You were wrong then and your still wrong.
Wrong wrong wrong.

DebDynamite

splinter65 wrote: »

That was not your original question though was it. You didn’t have a question. You stated as fact that illegal immigrants didn’t need PPSNs to claim covid. You were wrong then and your still wrong.
Wrong wrong wrong.

Yes, I was wrong regarding the PPS number. I hold my hands up. In fact, I’m surprised that illegal immigrants are entitled to PPS numbers.

As I said in my reply though to Marianne84 above:

The point still stands though, that undocumented workers are now entitled to the COVID payment when undocumented workers are not normally entitled to social welfare payments. Many of these applicants will not have paid any tax, and PPS numbers are now being given “free from fear” to those who have chosen to live under the radar with the assurance that their details will not be passed to the GNIB or the Department of Justice and Equality. So yes, I still think the system could be open to abuse.

RandomViewer

KyussB wrote: »

If you don't like them (whether 'them' is the locally unemployed, foreign resident unemployed, or illegal immigrant unemployed) being giving €350 for nothing - then pay them €350 in return for ~28 hours of useful work a week (e.g. producing PPE), which is the living wage here - and standard unemployment for anyone who doesn't want that.

It's an incredibly obvious and easy solution, guys - get behind it...

I knowyo believe that your plan is possible, I don't, for a start a huge amount of current Irish jobs are dependant on overseas trade, limited by what someone else wants, the other problem with you r plan is what do 600 k people do in three months when every hedge is trimmed, litter collected and tones of excess PPE blocking every warehouse?

KyussB

Build a massive fuckload of houses? Throw solar panels on the roof of every building in the country, grid connected? (upgrading the power grid to acommodate this) Insulate every residential structure in the country to the highest standard? Build an entire modern underground metro/rail system spanning the whole of Dublin and Cork cities? (finally with a rail link to the airport...) Build a high speed rail network between Cork/Dublin/Belfast? Build an entire new port development north of Dublin, since the existing port is very short on space? (with rail links to aiport/city) Plant hundreds of thousands of trees? Complete a proper east-link circular motorway in Dublin (i.e. bridge or tunnel over/under the bay, linking to M50 + Port Tunnel)?

There's enough that needs doing to keep a huge number of people employed their entire lives - and to keep a virtually endless stream of jobs for the unemployed to take up for a few years, each time the private economy tanks. There will never be a lack of useful work to do.

The only argument against it is a bait-and-switch: Going from arguing "there's no work to do...", to "it's too hard!".

Lyan

KyussB wrote: »

The only argument against it is a bait-and-switch: Going from arguing "there's no work to do...", to "it's too hard!".

And it all costs a metric ton of money?

enricoh

DebDynamite wrote: »

Yes, I was wrong regarding the PPS number. I hold my hands up. In fact, I’m surprised that illegal immigrants are entitled to PPS numbers.

As I said in my reply though to Marianne84 above:

The point still stands though, that undocumented workers are now entitled to the COVID payment when undocumented workers are not normally entitled to social welfare payments. Many of these applicants will not have paid any tax, and PPS numbers are now being given “free from fear” to those who have chosen to live under the radar with the assurance that their details will not be passed to the GNIB or the Department of Justice and Equality. So yes, I still think the system could be open to abuse.

What a joke of a country! Can they just apply online for a pps number or do they physically go to eg the intreo office for an interview or anything? If it's just online we are truly screwed.

I suppose pearse Doherty and the lefties will want them getting hap etc for their accommodation, sure why not!
Budget 2020 is gonna be eye watering to pay for this crap

begbysback

KyussB wrote: »

Build a massive fuckload of houses? Throw solar panels on the roof of every building in the country, grid connected? (upgrading the power grid to acommodate this) Insulate every residential structure in the country to the highest standard? Build an entire modern underground metro/rail system spanning the whole of Dublin and Cork cities? (finally with a rail link to the airport...) Build a high speed rail network between Cork/Dublin/Belfast? Build an entire new port development north of Dublin, since the existing port is very short on space? (with rail links to aiport/city) Plant hundreds of thousands of trees? Complete a proper east-link circular motorway in Dublin (i.e. bridge or tunnel over/under the bay, linking to M50 + Port Tunnel)?

There's enough that needs doing to keep a huge number of people employed their entire lives - and to keep a virtually endless stream of jobs for the unemployed to take up for a few years, each time the private economy tanks. There will never be a lack of useful work to do.

The only argument against it is a bait-and-switch: Going from arguing "there's no work to do...", to "it's too hard!".

Solar panels? In Ireland? For real?

salmocab

begbysback wrote: »

Solar panels? In Ireland? For real?

I was wiring a house a few years ago and the homeowner had to have solar panel put on his roof to satisfy part L of planning. The installer told me it was a complete waste of money as the electricity it produced was minimal and it would take years before the unit even paid for itself and after that the bills would barely be down anyway. The water heating ones work well enough but tiny panels on a roof at the time was just a box ticking exercise.

is_that_so

DebDynamite wrote: »

Yes, I was wrong regarding the PPS number. I hold my hands up. In fact, I’m surprised that illegal immigrants are entitled to PPS numbers.

As I said in my reply though to Marianne84 above:

The point still stands though, that undocumented workers are now entitled to the COVID payment when undocumented workers are not normally entitled to social welfare payments. Many of these applicants will not have paid any tax, and PPS numbers are now being given “free from fear” to those who have chosen to live under the radar with the assurance that their details will not be passed to the GNIB or the Department of Justice and Equality. So yes, I still think the system could be open to abuse.

It's not an entitlement, it's a form of tracking. You can't do much of anything here without a PPS number but it doesn't confer any benefits.

aido79

KyussB wrote: »

Build a massive fuckload of houses? Throw solar panels on the roof of every building in the country, grid connected? (upgrading the power grid to acommodate this) Insulate every residential structure in the country to the highest standard? Build an entire modern underground metro/rail system spanning the whole of Dublin and Cork cities? (finally with a rail link to the airport...) Build a high speed rail network between Cork/Dublin/Belfast? Build an entire new port development north of Dublin, since the existing port is very short on space? (with rail links to aiport/city) Plant hundreds of thousands of trees? Complete a proper east-link circular motorway in Dublin (i.e. bridge or tunnel over/under the bay, linking to M50 + Port Tunnel)?

There's enough that needs doing to keep a huge number of people employed their entire lives - and to keep a virtually endless stream of jobs for the unemployed to take up for a few years, each time the private economy tanks. There will never be a lack of useful work to do.

The only argument against it is a bait-and-switch: Going from arguing "there's no work to do...", to "it's too hard!".

You want people working 28 hours a week for €350 to do all of this?

Calahonda52

begbysback wrote: »

Solar panels? In Ireland? For real?

salmocab wrote: »

I was wiring a house a few years ago and the homeowner had to have solar panel put on his roof to satisfy part L of planning. The installer told me it was a complete waste of money as the electricity it produced was minimal and it would take years before the unit even paid for itself and after that the bills would barely be down anyway. The water heating ones work well enough but tiny panels on a roof at the time was just a box ticking exercise.

Wrong on both counts.
Educate your selves please on these matters.
https://www.seai.ie/publications/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf
will get you started.
If you want paybacks, invest in the stockmarket or bonds or similar.
Simple paybacks in these projects is a simplistic view of the world, its about LCCA and you must include carbon taxes.

splinter65

enricoh wrote: »

What a joke of a country! Can they just apply online for a pps number or do they physically go to eg the intreo office for an interview or anything? If it's just online we are truly screwed.

I suppose pearse Doherty and the lefties will want them getting hap etc for their accommodation, sure why not!
Budget 2020 is gonna be eye watering to pay for this crap

Yes yes of course. You just say “can I have a PPSN please?” You don’t need any application form or anything and they call one out to you over the phone.
I’ve just got 6 different ones in the last hour and I’m applying for benefits now in 6 different names.
I’ll have built that indoor pool by September no problem.

begbysback

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Wrong on both counts.
Educate your selves please on these matters.
https://www.seai.ie/publications/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf
will get you started.
If you want paybacks, invest in the stockmarket or bonds or similar.
Simple paybacks in these projects is a simplistic view of the world, its about LCCA and you must include carbon taxes.

You can send that nonsense elsewhere, if your looking to charge an old Nokia or have a bedside lamp then it might be suitable, thats conditional on having sunlight too, wind turbines would be more useful in Ireland. Solar energy ain’t going to happen mate, it’s an illusion at the moment that a suitable amount of usable energy can be obtained from solar panels, well unless you cover the whole country with them, and even that would only cover my neighborhood.

KyussB

Lyan wrote: »

And it all costs a metric ton of money?

All employment costs a metric ton of money. It also makes money, by growing the economy.

KyussB

begbysback wrote: »

Solar panels? In Ireland? For real?

salmocab wrote: »

I was wiring a house a few years ago and the homeowner had to have solar panel put on his roof to satisfy part L of planning. The installer told me it was a complete waste of money as the electricity it produced was minimal and it would take years before the unit even paid for itself and after that the bills would barely be down anyway. The water heating ones work well enough but tiny panels on a roof at the time was just a box ticking exercise.

You both do realize that, yes - even in Ireland - there's enough usable energy hittng the average home, that when solar is coupled with efficiency improvements and grid storage infrastructure, is more than enough to power a houses entire energy needs?

tjhook

It was urgent, something needed to be done quickly. But I would have done it somewhat differently - and it's not too late to change it.

Why not manage it in the same way as tax relief on medical expenses?

I.e. issue a statement to say "You can claim up to 75% of your pre-covid income, to a maximum of €350 per week". Assuming there was/is no time to perform any checks, it can be assumed the claimant is acting honestly. Revenue can take its time reviewing these cases. Comparing claims to previous pay. Any overpayment will later be clawed back. Some will slip through the net, but overall, costs will be somewhat controlled. Or for the same overall cost, it would be possible to offer 75% of your pay up to a higher limit - as a better support for those who have paid more to support the system. Bring the "PR" back into "PRSI".

KyussB

aido79 wrote: »

You want people working 28 hours a week for €350 to do all of this?

I want them to have the option to do all of that - with standard unemployment payments if they don't want to.

aido79

KyussB wrote: »

I want them to have the option to do all of that - with standard unemployment payments if they don't want to.

You want currently unemployed people to "build a massive ****load of houses? Throw solar panels on the roof of every building in the country, grid connected? (upgrading the power grid to acommodate this) Insulate every residential structure in the country to the highest standard? Build an entire modern underground metro/rail system spanning the whole of Dublin and Cork cities? (finally with a rail link to the airport...) Build a high speed rail network between Cork/Dublin/Belfast? Build an entire new port development north of Dublin, since the existing port is very short on space? (with rail links to aiport/city) Plant hundreds of thousands of trees? Complete a proper east-link circular motorway in Dublin (i.e. bridge or tunnel over/under the bay, linking to M50 + Port Tunnel)" while working 28 hours a week for €350?

Alot of what you mention involves skilled labour. How much thought have you put into this?

Hector Savage

Speaking of paying for all of this back, how much will tax be raised ? are we talking single digit % or a massive hike here ?

KyussB

aido79 wrote: »

You want currently unemployed people to "build a massive ****load of houses? Throw solar panels on the roof of every building in the country, grid connected? (upgrading the power grid to acommodate this) Insulate every residential structure in the country to the highest standard? Build an entire modern underground metro/rail system spanning the whole of Dublin and Cork cities? (finally with a rail link to the airport...) Build a high speed rail network between Cork/Dublin/Belfast? Build an entire new port development north of Dublin, since the existing port is very short on space? (with rail links to aiport/city) Plant hundreds of thousands of trees? Complete a proper east-link circular motorway in Dublin (i.e. bridge or tunnel over/under the bay, linking to M50 + Port Tunnel)" while working 28 hours a week for €350?

Alot of what you mention involves skilled labour. How much thought have you put into this?

Exactly as I said earlier: People bait and switch from "there's no work to do....", to "it's too hard...".

There was one before saying that people having to learn how to use a sewing machine (for producing PPE), represents an impassible skills barrier...

Yes, among the vast amounts of unskilled work available in these projects, there will be roles where people need to be taught skills along the way - the same as a lot of private/public sector jobs, where people regularly pick up new skills as they work. That doesn't impede any of these projects.

circadian

aido79 wrote: »

You want currently unemployed people to "build a massive ****load of houses? Throw solar panels on the roof of every building in the country, grid connected? (upgrading the power grid to acommodate this) Insulate every residential structure in the country to the highest standard? Build an entire modern underground metro/rail system spanning the whole of Dublin and Cork cities? (finally with a rail link to the airport...) Build a high speed rail network between Cork/Dublin/Belfast? Build an entire new port development north of Dublin, since the existing port is very short on space? (with rail links to aiport/city) Plant hundreds of thousands of trees? Complete a proper east-link circular motorway in Dublin (i.e. bridge or tunnel over/under the bay, linking to M50 + Port Tunnel)" while working 28 hours a week for €350?

Alot of what you mention involves skilled labour. How much thought have you put into this?

I'm going to hazard a guess at too much for the quality of ideas returned.

Fred Cryton

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Jesus suffering ****ing christ. The payment will not last forever, these people will either go back to work or resort to the usual dole amount.

You have a naive faith that a minority government will move people back to the usual dole. There's a concerted effort by the left wing parties to make it the new baseline for welfare payments.



I'll make a prediction here that in 3 years time the figure of 350 will still be with us in some form. Let's bear in mind this amount was literally made up off the top of the heads of department officials, based on a back of the envelope calculation of "whats a reasonable amount". Typical Ireland.

rob316

350 as a baseline for SW would be insane, anyone on minimum wage would never work again.

Fred Cryton

rob316 wrote: »

350 as a baseline for SW would be insane, anyone on minimum wage would never work again.

Never working again is not a problem to many people in Ireland.

RandomViewer

KyussB wrote: »

Build a massive fuckload of houses? Throw solar panels on the roof of every building in the country, grid connected? (upgrading the power grid to acommodate this) Insulate every residential structure in the country to the highest standard? Build an entire modern underground metro/rail system spanning the whole of Dublin and Cork cities? (finally with a rail link to the airport...) Build a high speed rail network between Cork/Dublin/Belfast? Build an entire new port development north of Dublin, since the existing port is very short on space? (with rail links to aiport/city) Plant hundreds of thousands of trees? Complete a proper east-link circular motorway in Dublin (i.e. bridge or tunnel over/under the bay, linking to M50 + Port Tunnel)?

There's enough that needs doing to keep a huge number of people employed their entire lives - and to keep a virtually endless stream of jobs for the unemployed to take up for a few years, each time the private economy tanks. There will never be a lack of useful work to do.

The only argument against it is a bait-and-switch: Going from arguing "there's no work to do...", to "it's too hard!".

Labour would be the cheapest part of it, Port Tunnell cost a fortune, very little of that manual Labour, we've come a long way since the pyramids, machinery does most of the work you mention, any way no political party even the Young FG Junta would even attempt what you propose

rob316

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Never working again is not a problem to many people in Ireland.

My wife works part time, better off and can't wait to go back to work, this money isn't worth it she said. I'd be the same I don't know how people don't work.

KyussB

RandomViewer wrote: »

Labour would be the cheapest part of it, Port Tunnell cost a fortune, very little of that manual Labour, we've come a long way since the pyramids, machinery does most of the work you mention, any way no political party even the Young FG Junta would even attempt what you propose

So now we've gone from "but there's no work to do...", to "but it's too hard...", and now to "but FG would never support it...".

Nothing but goalpost shifting and cherry picking from these posters.

People have been telling FG to build a fuckload of houses for years and years now, with many other parties making it a pillar of their election promises - there's loads of work to do, that people are crying out for politically.

Way better use of the publics time and money, than just giving people 350 for nothing.

Fred Cryton

rob316 wrote: »

My wife works part time, better off and can't wait to go back to work, this money isn't worth it she said. I'd be the same I don't know how people don't work.

There will be a large subset who won't work if they're not incentivized to. This is just human nature. If you're one of the good ones who'll go back working for less money than the 350, then fair play to you. But many will need a good strong push and incentive or they just won't do it.

Fred Cryton

Fred Cryton wrote: »

There will be a large subset who won't work if they're not incentivized to. This is just human nature. If you're one of the good ones who'll go back working for less money than the 350, then fair play to you. But many will need a good strong push and incentive or they just won't do it.

Those unwilling to work are already on the dole at the €203 rate.