The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

tylercheribini · 22-05-2020 7:32pm

1123heavy wrote: »

Let's hope and that it's not being sent abroad which is often the case with the lower paid jobs

Heaven forbid! Our economy would collapse overnight!

cooperguy · 22-05-2020 7:46pm

1123heavy wrote: »

Let's hope and that it's not being sent abroad which is often the case with the lower paid jobs

Im sure a bit of it will but plenty of part time workers and students will equally get the top up. Again, a blunt instrument that is doing a decent job and was announced and implemented in days (while others took weeks for a similar outcome).

GSBellew · 22-05-2020 8:08pm

rahmalec wrote: »

I was self employed too (mix of paye and self employed more like). Have managed to keep 100 a week or so out of about 1000 a week, but have now been booted off the 350 scheme!!! To those who don't think there'll be clawbacks, you're well wrong, it's happening already!
Thankfully I don't have any serious bills to pay and have some savings, but I'll be out of work for a long time. My cancellations stretch to November already!

I don't care about the part-timers getting their 350 at all. If it's all spent in the restaurants, pubs, and, God hoping, live events whenever they come back, all the better.

For clarification, are you saying that you were drawing a wage of €100 per week from your self employment?

CovidNonWorker · 22-05-2020 8:24pm

Been following this thread since the start and I don't think I've actually seen a bigger bunch of idiots on one thread in my entire life (Please correct me and point me to one though, it's entertaining!).

1. It is an EMERGENCY payment. Not a standard Social Welfare payment. How many people here still don't realise this? Also, everybody on this payment had a job before the virus. It's not like they've been sitting on their hole and scratching it waiting to get extra money, living off benefits for their whole lives.

2. People giving out about how much damage this is doing to the economy because of paying some people an extra €100 or €200 a week. I'm sure someone linked an article stating around 200,000 people were on under the €350 a week payment. If they were on normal Jobseekers instead they would be earning €203 a week instead. This is therefore costing €29,400,000 more per week or €352,800,000 over the course of 12 weeks. How people think that paying 0.35 billion euro to people (who might be earning €150 a week now, but probably earning closer to the actual Covid Payment of €350 a week during the summer if not more) is going to ruin the whole of the Irish economy is beyond me...
The economy is going to be fcuked either way, for the sake of a third of a billion that I would imagine has done wonders for these people's mental health in this time I don't mind it.

Answers before the snarky and belittling posts come in;

Yes, I am in receipt of the Covid payment...
Yes, I am a student...
As much as you would all like to believe it, no, I'm not a waster... I'm a 26 year old who pays for himself through life, gets no grants or subsidies from the government, and the only time I've claimed social welfare before this was when I was unable to work for 5 months as I was in a wheelchair for this time.
Yes, I help manage a bar part time from September-May earning around €375 a week...
No, I'm not a crazy leftie who loves Sinn Fein or a Blueshirt who thinks they can do no wrong...
I already have a degree in Business so sort of understand how the economy works, but compared to some of the posts here, the majority of you guys should be lecturers in college or writing books/papers about the topic.

I've probably forgot some of the amazing points and comments you guys have made throughout the whole thread, but these replies should answer most of the economists against the Covid payment.

For those of you who actually listen to others, debate like normal human beings and discuss points instead of jamming your opinions down others' throats, thank you. I've enjoyed reading your comments about why you think it's a bad idea and it has helped me to learn a few things I didn't know before.

You might also like to know that during the summer I run an outdoor adventure centre, which means during June, July and most of August I work 6 days a week minimum and minimum 12 hours a day.

For those suggesting throughout the thread that people need to upskill to get better paid jobs...
If you want to give me a percentage of my last 2 paychecks before Paddy's Day which were €0 and €375 then thanks, I've lost both my jobs and cannot afford to pay for my car, my rent and my college fees then. Would you like to suggest how I upskill and get a better paying job when the jobs I did have are now gone because of this virus and because I was not allowed by the government to keep working in them (No problem with this, I just don't see the point of telling people there are plenty of jobs out there when we're actually just waiting for restrictions to be lifted to go back to work, not looking for new jobs)?

Meh, I might come back and write some more later, but for now... I think that's enough boards for this evening anyways...

Tea drinker · 22-05-2020 8:44pm

^seems a bit snarky Mr Covid, but it's not exactly normal times, i get it. You are right about the lack of jobs.... the lockdown has to go or we are back to diddle dee i and dancing at the crossroads. We need people back to work same as we need the Covid payments gone ASAP. The government has shut the whole economy down and the country nor it's citizens can afford it. Places like Cinema's and massage parlours kissing booths whatever can wait a few months.

Was it right to lockdown as much as we did... remains to be seen. 30 billion gone in a few weeks (and we are far from out of the woods) is going to be a hoor.

Fred Cryton · 22-05-2020 9:01pm

CovidNonWorker wrote: »

2. People giving out about how much damage this is doing to the economy because of paying some people an extra €100 or €200 a week. I'm sure someone linked an article stating around 200,000 people were on under the €350 a week payment. If they were on normal Jobseekers instead they would be earning €203 a week instead. This is therefore costing €29,400,000 more per week or €352,800,000 over the course of 12 weeks.

As a student you might want to work harder on your sums.

There are 200,000 earning below the 350. But there's another 300,000 or so earning at or slightly above - say 350 to 450 a week. These people are also not going back to work because why would they put in a grueling 40 hour week if the state is giving them almost the same amount for nothing.

So we are talking an extra 500,000 people taking an extra 150 a week over and above the usual dole payment. This is 500,000 x 150 x 12 = €900m for the 12 week period.

But it doesn't end there. People not working have two further costs, they're not paying tax, and the companies they work for are making less money because they can't get workers back.

So we are talking about billions of euros in cost, just for the 12 week period.

22-05-2020 9:04pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

As a student you might want to work harder on your sums.

There are 200,000 earning below the 350. But there's another 300,000 or so earning at or slightly above - say 350 to 450 a week. These people are also not going back to work because why would they put in a grueling 40 hour week if the state is giving them almost the same amount for nothing.

So we are talking an extra 500,000 people taking an extra 150 a week over and above the usual dole payment. This is 500,000 x 150 x 12 = €900m for the 12 week period.

But it doesn't end there. People not working have two further costs, they're not paying tax, and the companies they work for are making less money because they can't get workers back.

So we are talking about billions of euros in cost, just for the 12 week period.

How many companies,are reporting difficulties getting people back

Anyone i know,in low paid jobs,are rearing to get back??

CovidNonWorker · 22-05-2020 9:57pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

As a student you might want to work harder on your sums.

You haven't actually pointed out where my I went wrong in my sums. I think you'll find they're actually correct.

Fred Cryton wrote: »

There are 200,000 earning below the 350. But there's another 300,000 or so earning at or slightly above - say 350 to 450 a week. These people are also not going back to work because why would they put in a grueling 40 hour week if the state is giving them almost the same amount for nothing.

There's no proof these people aren't going back to work. There might be the odd example but you have your head in the sand if you think this is happening with everyone on them wages. Also, anyone who refuses to go back to work isn't deemed eligible for this payment so your point is invalid.

Fred Cryton wrote: »

So we are talking about billions of euros in cost, just for the 12 week period.

Fred Cryton wrote: »

we are talking an extra 500,000 people taking an extra 150 a week over and above the usual dole payment. This is 500,000 x 150 x 12 = €900m for the 12 week period.

Just to use your own point here...

Fred Cryton wrote: »

As a student you might want to work harder on your sums.

Fred Cryton wrote: »

But it doesn't end there. People not working have two further costs, they're not paying tax, and the companies they work for are making less money because they can't get workers back.

So we are talking about billions of euros in cost, just for the 12 week period.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Covid payment. The Government have restrictions in place so businesses haven't been able to open. This has nothing to do with your imaginary scenario where half the country is basically refusing to work.

Are you now going to say that there's loads of examples of people not returning to work and then list a handful? Are you going to cite an actual statement from one of these companies saying they're losing money and causing massive damage to the Irish economy because of people refusing to work? Or are you just going to try and continue to troll along in this thread?

rapul · 22-05-2020 10:14pm

Right said Fred indeed, but yes he can't add for ****e don't pay attention to him, begrudgery at its best.

Banana Republic 1 · 22-05-2020 10:42pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

As a student you might want to work harder on your sums.

There are 200,000 earning below the 350. But there's another 300,000 or so earning at or slightly above - say 350 to 450 a week. These people are also not going back to work because why would they put in a grueling 40 hour week if the state is giving them almost the same amount for nothing.

So we are talking an extra 500,000 people taking an extra 150 a week over and above the usual dole payment. This is 500,000 x 150 x 12 = €900m for the 12 week period.

So we are talking about billions of euros in cost, just for the 12 week period.

Is someones live worth as little as 350 quid, many mouth breathers here seem to think so. You'd swear the earths magnetic core is after flipping because the amount of swivel eyed ignoramuses on here is something fierce. Corralled in their homes foaming at the mouth, finding it difficult to string four words together not to mind crow barring in their bigoted and begrudging thoughts.

So what if people are getting 147 quid extra for few months its an emergency after all and its not just your regular crips eating plebs getting it; spare a thought for the accountants, barristers and hedge fund managers whom if it wasn't for this payment would be forced out to work for as little as the minimum wage, my God the horror.

People bleat on about students who might have only worked an hour getting the same payment as someone who has worked 50 years man and boy, even the millionaire Pat Kenny is raging. Fair enough you are entitled to your opinion, but one should not forget who will be paying for your pension or the adult nappies you claim for.

One thing I have learned is that very few seem to know how ones earns PRSI stamps. You really should make it your business to find because you could have worked and paid tax since you were 16 but your state pension is only based on the last 40 years of employment and whatever money you earned has no bearing on your entitlements, subject to a means test.

helpful · 23-05-2020 6:48am

I think the payment was needed and one of the best things the government did throughout this pandemic. It was quick and easy to sign up to.
I think from June they need to be stricter however and look into the claims. A difference for part time and full time workers is needed now.
I have a friend who works in a pre school who has quit her job so that she won’t have to sign on for the summer as normal but will instead get the €350 payment. The preschool was to pay her wages for may and June but then she’d have to sign on jobseekers like every other summer. These cases need to be stopped and if you refuse to return to work you are put on the €203

Idbatterim · 23-05-2020 9:24am

If mental welfare costs are so great for the economy, can we not increase it to five hundred per week?

Boggles · 23-05-2020 10:03am

helpful wrote: »

I think the payment was needed and one of the best things the government did throughout this pandemic. It was quick and easy to sign up to.
I think from June they need to be stricter however and look into the claims. A difference for part time and full time workers is needed now.
I have a friend who works in a pre school who has quit her job so that she won’t have to sign on for the summer as normal but will instead get the €350 payment. The preschool was to pay her wages for may and June but then she’d have to sign on jobseekers like every other summer. These cases need to be stopped and if you refuse to return to work you are put on the €203

That makes literally no sense.

Why would she quit her job in May when she is fully entitled to the payment up to the start of July?

Wanderer78 · 23-05-2020 10:08am

Idbatterim wrote:

If mental welfare costs are so great for the economy, can we not increase it to five hundred per week?

Helicopter money is believed to be a far quicker method of stimulating an economy than alternatives, so what you have proposed would probably be of great benefit to the economy, but it won't happen, we ll probably return to the usual more conservative methods, which will probably prolong the downturn

addaword · 23-05-2020 10:13am

Fred Cryton wrote: »

As a student you might want to work harder on your sums.

There are 200,000 earning below the 350. But there's another 300,000 or so earning at or slightly above - say 350 to 450 a week. These people are also not going back to work because why would they put in a grueling 40 hour week if the state is giving them almost the same amount for nothing.

So we are talking an extra 500,000 people taking an extra 150 a week over and above the usual dole payment. This is 500,000 x 150 x 12 = €900m for the 12 week period.

But it doesn't end there. People not working have two further costs, they're not paying tax, and the companies they work for are making less money because they can't get workers back.

So we are talking about billions of euros in cost, just for the 12 week period.

Correct. There are lots of self employed people who will not go back to work either, because getting a guaranteed €350 per week, every week, in sickness and in health, is a more attractive proposition.

RocketRaccoon · 23-05-2020 10:15am

addaword wrote: »

Correct. There are lots of self employed people who will not go back to work either, because getting a guaranteed €350 per week, every week, in sickness and in health, is a more attractive proposition.

Jesus suffering ****ing christ. The payment will not last forever, these people will either go back to work or resort to the usual dole amount.

23-05-2020 10:22am

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Jesus suffering ****ing christ. The payment will not last forever, these people will either go back to work or resort to the usual dole amount.

And if their weekly wage was lower, the difference claimed back.

Acey10 · 23-05-2020 11:50am

Deleted User wrote: »

And if their weekly wage was lower, the difference claimed back.

have you a source for this? not being smart I just want to read it.

tscul32 · 23-05-2020 11:53am

If many of the part timers are part time because they can't work full time, then when the payment ends they won't qualify for jobseekers, so this has to carry them while they seek something new if their job is gone for good. I worked part time, while kids were in school, and I'm making more on the covid payment. If offered my job back in the morning I'd jump at it, but it will be one of the last businesses to be reopened and after losing 6mths revenue they may not be able to afford to take me back. I'll get no jobseekers. And part time school friendly jobs are not easy to find.

23-05-2020 12:05pm

Acey10 wrote: »

have you a source for this? not being smart I just want to read it.

Pat Kenny on Newstalk yesterday. Can’t remember the guests name. Also said that anyone who were already on a payment, for example single parents allowance, would have Covid payment clawed back as you can only get one state payment.

splinter65 · 23-05-2020 1:02pm

Boggles wrote: »

That makes literally no sense.

Why would she quit her job in May when she is fully entitled to the payment up to the start of July?

Probably has to give a minimum amount of notice to her employer.

splinter65 · 23-05-2020 1:25pm

Acey10 wrote: »

have you a source for this? not being smart I just want to read it.

Within 10 day’s of the payment being in place I was already being told by my local SW office that there would be a clawback of any monies anyone who was already on a SW payment got that was in excess of what they normally got.
For example:
Mary is on OPFP with 2 kids 6 and 4.
She’s working 20 hours per week @€;11 per hour so €220 wages. She has no maintenance.
Pre covid her weekly income comprised of
€247.50 OPFP
+
€220. Wages
=
€467.50
+
€100. WFP
=
€567.50

Covid lockdown hits and she’s laid off. Wages gone. €350 PUP instead of the €220. OPFP stays the same. WFP stays the same.
Weekly income now is
€247.50 OPFP+
€350. PUP+
€100. WFP
=
€697.50
So she’s €130 better off with covid.
I don’t know if SW have already readjusted her OPFP but if they haven’t they soon will because they’ll have to.

ronano · 23-05-2020 2:49pm

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Jesus suffering ****ing christ. The payment will not last forever, these people will either go back to work or resort to the usual dole amount.

It's like bashing your head against the wall, allot of those against the payment have created a strawman and reality won't pierce their self delusion.

helpful · 23-05-2020 3:16pm

Boggles wrote: »

That makes literally no sense.

Why would she quit her job in May when she is fully entitled to the payment up to the start of July?

So maybe I didn’t explain it properly?
She signs on every summer like many pre school teachers but she is not returning in September so when asked if she wanted to stay on the PUP or go back to being paid 80% of her wage by her employer until the end of June she decided to stay on the PUP so she could claim it through the summer rather than the €203.

RandomViewer · 23-05-2020 3:43pm

ronano wrote: »

It's like bashing your head against the wall, allot of those against the payment have created a strawman and reality won't pierce their self delusion.

It's into the third week of this thread, it's been explained too them so many times I'm stating to think that printing off the Covid details, liwuidising them, bore a hole in Fred's head and pouring them directly onto his brain (might need to liguidise more than one copy to fill the space):) is the only way he'll take notice,

CovidNonWorker · 23-05-2020 3:55pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

If mental welfare costs are so great for the economy, can we not increase it to five hundred per week?

Yeah, that makes sense... The way you've gone on in the whole thread is like some sadist. If somebody loses their job, fcuk them. Let's not bother giving them anything. It must be their own fault and they should find work or else starve to death...

addaword wrote: »

Correct. There are lots of self employed people who will not go back to work either, because getting a guaranteed €350 per week, every week, in sickness and in health, is a more attractive proposition.

That is ridiculous, I know very little self-employed people that would bother doing this. Also, the fact is if they are able to return to business and don't, then their Covid payment will be stopped and they will return to €203 a week.

For those against the Covid payment... Are there many arguments apart from costing billions (Which it won't) and hearsay mainly? Like "My brother's girlfriend's granny's sister-in-law's grandchild's cat knows somebody who doesn't want to go back to work when they're actually allowed and will therefore definitely still get the €350 a week even though it hasn't happened yet!"

Or "I know of some student who refuses to work and gets €350 a week even though their job is gone until the government lifts some restrictions, this is an outrage!" "I know of someone who refuses to work in a supermarket during this global pandemic. They definitely have no underlying health conditions because although I never asked them, they don't look like they do."

My personal favourite "I know someone who brags about refusing to work and is claiming €350 a week." If this is your example then what the fcuk are you doing on Boards complaining about it and why are you not reporting them to social welfare if you care that much about it? Or do you not really care and just want to look like you know what you're talking about on the internet?

Anyone who refuses to go back to work when they are able is not entitled to this payment. Complaining that you know people who refuse to work and are claiming this payment isn't a logical complaint about the actual payment, it's a complaint about welfare fraud. You might as well complain about people doing nixers for cash if you're complaining about ineligible people claiming this payment.

Tomrota · 23-05-2020 6:09pm

CovidNonWorker wrote: »

Yeah, that makes sense... The way you've gone on in the whole thread is like some sadist. If somebody loses their job, fcuk them. Let's not bother giving them anything. It must be their own fault and they should find work or else starve to death...

That is ridiculous, I know very little self-employed people that would bother doing this. Also, the fact is if they are able to return to business and don't, then their Covid payment will be stopped and they will return to €203 a week.

For those against the Covid payment... Are there many arguments apart from costing billions (Which it won't) and hearsay mainly? Like "My brother's girlfriend's granny's sister-in-law's grandchild's cat knows somebody who doesn't want to go back to work when they're actually allowed and will therefore definitely still get the €350 a week even though it hasn't happened yet!"

Or "I know of some student who refuses to work and gets €350 a week even though their job is gone until the government lifts some restrictions, this is an outrage!" "I know of someone who refuses to work in a supermarket during this global pandemic. They definitely have no underlying health conditions because although I never asked them, they don't look like they do."

My personal favourite "I know someone who brags about refusing to work and is claiming €350 a week." If this is your example then what the fcuk are you doing on Boards complaining about it and why are you not reporting them to social welfare if you care that much about it? Or do you not really care and just want to look like you know what you're talking about on the internet?

Anyone who refuses to go back to work when they are able is not entitled to this payment. Complaining that you know people who refuse to work and are claiming this payment isn't a logical complaint about the actual payment, it's a complaint about welfare fraud. You might as well complain about people doing nixers for cash if you're complaining about ineligible people claiming this payment.

Best post.

It’s absolutely laughable that people think that a 350€ a week payment is going to disincentivise the self-employed to work. Same tired and disproven arguments that people use against universal basic income. People have an innate drive to work and earn more money. Those that don’t have this drive are already on social welfare or zero income. If their job has been offered and they refuse, then they’re gonna be taken off the payment so they’ll have to work.

Oh and those greedy college students getting a bit extra because their workplace has been forced shut by the government. They’re so greedy getting a bit extra per week during a global pandemic and one of the most stressful and confusing times of their lives (even without COVID). How dare they!

Banana Republic 1 · 23-05-2020 7:28pm

tylercheribini wrote: »

Jaysus are you a masochist?

No I had originally thought if proved myself I might find a way into the civil service. The flaw in my plan was that civil service recruitment agency dont pay any attention to that but instead rely on some poxy test that has a much relevance to real life as a sketch of a stick man on the back of a cigarette packet.

Tea drinker · 23-05-2020 7:45pm

Tomrota wrote: »

Best post.

It’s absolutely laughable that people think that a 350€ a week payment is going to disincentivise the self-employed to work. Same tired and disproven arguments that people use against universal basic income. People have an innate drive to work and earn more money. Those that don’t have this drive are already on social welfare or zero income. If their job has been offered and they refuse, then they’re gonna be taken off the payment so they’ll have to work.

Oh and those greedy college students getting a bit extra because their workplace has been forced shut by the government. They’re so greedy getting a bit extra per week during a global pandemic and one of the most stressful and confusing times of their lives (even without COVID). How dare they!

There's nothing tired about the arguments against UBI, you are probably tired of arguing for an increase in dole to call it UBI.
There's already a lot of social ills caused by dole and whole families with broken work ethic. Not to mention this new religion with the money tree dropping money from the sky.
Seriously what is with all these crazy new religions?

da_miser · 23-05-2020 7:51pm

The one good thing the €350 a week has done is shown the country that politicians are full of shît, they where constantly telling us they had no money to fix this that and the other, and then POOF billions where pulled out of thin air.
They could have done this for the hospitals and housing crisis in years past but chose not to , questions should be asked.

The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

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