The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

25-05-2020 9:33am

DebDynamite wrote: »

https://inar.ie/covid19-and-minorities/

“The Irish Government has confirmed to the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland (MRCI) that all people – documented or undocumented – can apply for hardship payments and access information from social welfare services free from fear during COVID19. You will need to give the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection (DEASP) personal information to apply for hardship payments. The Department have given assurance in their Twitter post that data they receive as part of an immigrant’s application for a COVID19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment will not be shared with GNIB or the Department of Justice and Equality.
To access any financial support from social welfare during COVID-19 you must have a PPS number first. It is safe for you to apply for one now. Visit MRCI’s page to find out how to proceed and contact the organisation directly if have any questions about your situation.”

It says in the link and excerpt above that if you don’t have a PPS number that they will give you one under the circumstances, no questions asked.

There you have your answer. It’s safe to apply for a PPSN now in order to claim the Covid payment.

DebDynamite · 25-05-2020 9:39am

aido79 wrote: »

So the bottom line is that a pps number is required to apply for the payment?
If a person doesn't have one they will give them one as you have said.

Yes, they are giving PPS numbers to undocumented workers who have paid no tax, so they can claim the Covid benefit.

My original statement was that illegal immigrants are entitled to the Covid payment. When asked about the PPS number issue, I assumed that there was an agreement between the relevant government department that forgoed the need to have a PPSN, but now it seems that they are actually giving out PPS numbers, no questions asked. However, the original point still stands.

aido79 · 25-05-2020 10:03am

DebDynamite wrote: »

Yes, they are giving PPS numbers to undocumented workers who have paid no tax, so they can claim the Covid benefit.

My original statement was that illegal immigrants are entitled to the Covid payment. When asked about the PPS number issue, I assumed that there was an agreement between the relevant government department that forgoed the need to have a PPSN, but now it seems that they are actually giving out PPS numbers, no questions asked. However, the original point still stands.

Your original point was that it was open to abuse because a pps wasn't required. This is not the case as you stated yourself.
Do you think illegal immigrants are going to apply for this in droves and draw attention to themselves?

splinter65 · 25-05-2020 10:40am

DebDynamite wrote: »

I think you’re the one having trouble understanding things. Maybe try reading it again:

“If I am undocumented and I lost my job or had been laid- off due to Covid-19 can I apply for Pandemic Unemployment Payment?

COVID-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment
The Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection has confirmed that this payment is available irrespective of immigration status to:

Employees and self-employed people who lost their job or have been laid off due to the COVID-19

AND

Employees and self-employed people who have a valid PPSN number

The payment also applies if you are :
a non-EU/EEA workers who have lost employment due to the COVID-19 (Coronavirus) pandemic irrespective of immigration status
a student (and non-EU/EEA students, stamp 2 and stamp 1g) who have lost employment due to the COVID-19 (Coronavirus) pandemic”

You are totally wrong. For some reason known only to yourself you are assuming that illegal immigrants wouldn’t have PPSNs. Why?

splinter65 · 25-05-2020 10:44am

DebDynamite wrote: »

Yes, they are giving PPS numbers to undocumented workers who have paid no tax, so they can claim the Covid benefit.

My original statement was that illegal immigrants are entitled to the Covid payment. When asked about the PPS number issue, I assumed that there was an agreement between the relevant government department that forgoed the need to have a PPSN, but now it seems that they are actually giving out PPS numbers, no questions asked. However, the original point still stands.

This is absolutely wrong too. You haven’t a clue about any of this. No they are not giving PPSNs to illegal immigrants in order for them to claim the covid.
The illegal immigrants already had PPSNs and were working, and were paying tax and PRSI and USC. Your just pulling rubbish out of your head. Its embarrassing .

Banana Republic 1 · 25-05-2020 11:09am

YFlyer wrote: »

I'm a person that is writing up my PhD thesis. Do not have any funding at the moment. Getting financial assistance or even a part time job is near impossible now. Any suggestions?

Are you not employed as an asstiant by whatever uni your attending

DebDynamite · 25-05-2020 11:29am

splinter65 wrote: »

This is absolutely wrong too. You haven’t a clue about any of this. No they are not giving PPSNs to illegal immigrants in order for them to claim the covid.
The illegal immigrants already had PPSNs and were working, and were paying tax and PRSI and USC. Your just pulling rubbish out of your head. Its embarrassing .

Are there many undocumented workers with PPS numbers paying tax? I genuinely don’t know, so would be interested to know.

For those who aren’t, it literally says below that if you have been living and working here undocumented, you can now apply for a PPSN “free from fear” to access Covid benefits, and your details will not be passed to the GNIB or the Department of Justice and Equality.

https://inar.ie/covid19-and-minorities/

“The Irish Government has confirmed to the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland (MRCI) that all people – documented or undocumented – can apply for hardship payments and access information from social welfare services free from fear during COVID19. You will need to give the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection (DEASP) personal information to apply for hardship payments. The Department have given assurance in their Twitter post that data they receive as part of an immigrant’s application for a COVID19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment will not be shared with GNIB or the Department of Justice and Equality.
To access any financial support from social welfare during COVID-19 you must have a PPS number first. It is safe for you to apply for one now. Visit MRCI’s page to find out how to proceed and contact the organisation directly if have any questions about your situation.”

GocRh · 25-05-2020 11:45am

DebDynamite wrote: »

Are there many undocumented workers with PPS numbers paying tax? I genuinely don’t know, so would be interested to know.

I suppose one could be legal in the State at some point, being granted a PPS number, and then no longer satisfy immigration requirements thus becoming illegal?

I don't think PPS numbers are revoked, and I'm sure not all employers check immigration status.

Banana Republic 1 · 25-05-2020 1:28pm

DebDynamite wrote: »

Yes, they are giving PPS numbers to undocumented workers who have paid no tax, so they can claim the Covid benefit.

My original statement was that illegal immigrants are entitled to the Covid payment. When asked about the PPS number issue, I assumed that there was an agreement between the relevant government department that forgoed the need to have a PPSN, but now it seems that they are actually giving out PPS numbers, no questions asked. However, the original point still stands.

What you are doing now is grasping at straws.

DebDynamite · 25-05-2020 1:44pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

What you are doing now is grasping at straws.

So undocumented workers who did not have PPS numbers and paying no tax aren’t now being given them in confidence to allow them to claim the COVID payment?

splinter65 · 25-05-2020 2:03pm

DebDynamite wrote: »

Are there many undocumented workers with PPS numbers paying tax? I genuinely don’t know, so would be interested to know.

For those who aren’t, it literally says below that if you have been living and working here undocumented, you can now apply for a PPSN “free from fear” to access Covid benefits, and your details will not be passed to the GNIB or the Department of Justice and Equality.

https://inar.ie/covid19-and-minorities/

“The Irish Government has confirmed to the Migrant Rights Centre Ireland (MRCI) that all people – documented or undocumented – can apply for hardship payments and access information from social welfare services free from fear during COVID19. You will need to give the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection (DEASP) personal information to apply for hardship payments. The Department have given assurance in their Twitter post that data they receive as part of an immigrant’s application for a COVID19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment will not be shared with GNIB or the Department of Justice and Equality.
To access any financial support from social welfare during COVID-19 you must have a PPS number first. It is safe for you to apply for one now. Visit MRCI’s page to find out how to proceed and contact the organisation directly if have any questions about your situation.”

You now say you “genuinely don’t know” but earlier today you were quite pompously stating as Indisputable fact that illegal immigrants were getting PUP despite having no PPSN.
For your information there are 1000s of illegal immigrants working paying tax and all the things you pay they just happen to have no legal right to reside here.
Why you are so outraged at them being given the same compensation for having lost their job as everyone else is known only to you but you’ll excuse me if I come to the conclusion that it’s racism really.

splinter65 · 25-05-2020 2:09pm

DebDynamite wrote: »

So undocumented workers who did not have PPS numbers and paying no tax aren’t now being given them in confidence to allow them to claim the COVID payment?

But that’s not what you alleged deb. You stated as absolute fact that illegal immigrants had been given PUP without having PPSNs. You linked to a document that you either hadn’t read or you didn’t understand.
Yes illegal immigrants who don’t have PPSNs are being invited to apply for them now but it will have to be by post and application forms will have to be completed so I don’t see there being too many takers.

splinter65 · 25-05-2020 2:12pm

DebDynamite wrote: »

Yes, they are giving PPS numbers to undocumented workers who have paid no tax, so they can claim the Covid benefit.

My original statement was that illegal immigrants are entitled to the Covid payment. When asked about the PPS number issue, I assumed that there was an agreement between the relevant government department that forgoed the need to have a PPSN, but now it seems that they are actually giving out PPS numbers, no questions asked. However, the original point still stands.

What do you mean no questions asked? There’s an application form has to be completed.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/personal_public_service_number.html

More misinformation.

DebDynamite · 25-05-2020 2:15pm

splinter65 wrote: »

You now say you “genuinely don’t know” but earlier today you were quite pompously stating as Indisputable fact that illegal immigrants were getting PUP despite having no PPSN.
For your information there are 1000s of illegal immigrants working paying tax and all the things you pay they just happen to have no legal right to reside here.
Why you are so outraged at them being given the same compensation for having lost their job as everyone else is known only to you but you’ll excuse me if I come to the conclusion that it’s racism really.

I’m not sure how the people who will now be given PPS numbers have been paying tax up until now? And yes, I don’t agree with people who have paid no tax getting benefits, when other people on here have been cut off the payment for even earning €100.

Why racism? I have no idea what colour or creed the undocumented are, nor do I care. Are you the one saying they’re mostly non-Caucasian?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 25-05-2020 2:18pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I have a Masters in the subject, thanks so much. McWilliams is a charaltan and a spoofer, yeah free money into everyones account. Sure why not make everyone a millionaire so, what could possibly go wrong.

How can you study a subject, receive a masters, and still not understand basic principles? Unless economics was a 5 credit subject in year 1 of your arty farty crusty course?

Fred Cryton wrote: »

The usual suspects will try to make 350 the new baseline for welfare payments.

Who are the usual suspects? Cringe...!

sabat · 25-05-2020 2:25pm

splinter65 wrote: »

For your information there are 1000s of illegal immigrants working paying tax and all the things you pay they just happen to have no legal right to reside here.
Why you are so outraged at them being given the same compensation for having lost their job as everyone else is known only to you but you’ll excuse me if I come to the conclusion that it’s racism really.

When I read posts like this I become more convinced that half the country has gone insane. €200 billion and rising in national debt with mass unemployment and you think we should subsidise every chancer that shows up. Should we put them on the housing list too?

GocRh · 25-05-2020 2:39pm

sabat wrote: »

When I read posts like this I become more convinced that half the country has gone insane. €200 billion and rising in national debt with mass unemployment and you think we should subsidise every chancer that shows up. Should we put them on the housing list too?

It does indeed seem to be the case.

Once the economy tanks and we go back to austerity illegal immigrants will leave for greener pastures. And this time around there won't be many countries for the Irish to emigrate (legally) to.
We'll be stuck with the bill.

25-05-2020 2:52pm

sabat wrote: »

When I read posts like this I become more convinced that half the country has gone insane. €200 billion and rising in national debt with mass unemployment and you think we should subsidise every chancer that shows up. Should we put them on the housing list too?

Irish people have benefited from being accepted into other countries, often illegally. In the current crisis, I’m glad that we, as a nation are mature enough to hold out the hand of friendship and support to those who might need it. So what if a few chancers take advantage. There’ll always be some who do.

KyussB · 25-05-2020 2:58pm

If you don't like them (whether 'them' is the locally unemployed, foreign resident unemployed, or illegal immigrant unemployed) being giving €350 for nothing - then pay them €350 in return for ~28 hours of useful work a week (e.g. producing PPE), which is the living wage here - and standard unemployment for anyone who doesn't want that.

It's an incredibly obvious and easy solution, guys - get behind it...

sabat · 25-05-2020 3:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Irish people have benefited from being accepted into other countries, often illegally. In the current crisis, I’m glad that we, as a nation are mature enough to hold out the hand of friendship and support to those who might need it. So what if a few chancers take advantage. There’ll always be some who do.

TWO HUNDRED BILLION

A mature country is one which applies its laws, not one that bends over for woke points every time some emotionally manipulative dribble appears in the media. How far should we go with this generosity? Like I asked -the housing list? Medical cards?

splinter65 · 25-05-2020 3:43pm

DebDynamite wrote: »

I’m not sure how the people who will now be given PPS numbers have been paying tax up until now? And yes, I don’t agree with people who have paid no tax getting benefits, when other people on here have been cut off the payment for even earning €100.

Why racism? I have no idea what colour or creed the undocumented are, nor do I care. Are you the one saying they’re mostly non-Caucasian?

Apparently you’ve no problem with students who worked on Saturday night in the pub for €50 getting the money as long as they are Irish. Or people on a SW payment already getting €150+ more then they did actually working getting it. No it’s specifically the illegal IMMIGRANTS. So yes racism is the wrong word . Let’s use xenophobia instead.

DebDynamite · 25-05-2020 3:52pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Apparently you’ve no problem with students who worked on Saturday night in the pub for €50 getting the money as long as they are Irish. Or people on a SW payment already getting €150+ more then they did actually working getting it. No it’s specifically the illegal IMMIGRANTS. So yes racism is the wrong word . Let’s use xenophobia instead.

Oh believe me, I have every problem with that too. I don’t discriminate when it comes to abuse of welfare. However, my original point was, in response to some people scamming the system, was that it was always going to be open to abuse when undocumented workers can claim it, which a lot of people didn’t seem to be aware of

GocRh · 25-05-2020 4:23pm

DebDynamite wrote: »

Oh believe me, I have every problem with that too. I don’t discriminate when it comes to abuse of welfare. However, my original point was, in response to some people scamming the system, was that it was always going to be open to abuse when undocumented workers can claim it, which a lot of people didn’t seem to be aware of

It seems that almost anyone who can complete the form can get the PUP benefit (legally or not)... including:
- Irish living abroad
- Part time workers who earned less than 350 EUR
- People who chose quit their jobs
- Students (Irish, European and non-EU) who were not in full-time employment
- Undocumented immigrants

The problem isn't necessarily illegal immigrants or non-EU students, it's how the Government created a welfare benefit that goes against every rule in the book (not means tested, available for those who normally wouldn't be eligible for welfare, etc).

There should be a different (and more limited) support for those who were not eligible for welfare benefits under normal rules.

25-05-2020 4:30pm

sabat wrote: »

TWO HUNDRED BILLION

A mature country is one which applies its laws, not one that bends over for woke points every time some emotionally manipulative dribble appears in the media. How far should we go with this generosity? Like I asked -the housing list? Medical cards?

I exceptional times, we are (imho) right to look after the illegals.

What’s your point re two hundred billion?

And what is “emotionally manipulative dribble”?

Banana Republic 1 · 25-05-2020 5:07pm

DebDynamite wrote: »

So undocumented workers who did not have PPS numbers and paying no tax aren’t now being given them in confidence to allow them to claim the COVID payment?

You clearly have no clue how the PPS system integrates itself across departments. Stop trying to crowbar your bigoted hornswoggle into the facts please. I would ask members not to reply to any of DebDynamites comments as I think this person is trolling this thread.

hopalongcass · 25-05-2020 5:13pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Apparently you’ve no problem with students who worked on Saturday night in the pub for €50 getting the money as long as they are Irish. Or people on a SW payment already getting €150+ more then they did actually working getting it. No it’s specifically the illegal IMMIGRANTS. So yes racism is the wrong word . Let’s use xenophobia instead.

To be honest and i guess it won't be popular in this modern pc world but i have more of a problem when its non Irish getting the money.The non Irish can go home when its time to pay the bill,some of us haven't got a second place to call home and the bill is going to be landed on us and our children.

DebDynamite · 25-05-2020 5:27pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

You clearly have no clue how the PPS system integrates itself across departments. Stop trying to crowbar your bigoted hornswoggle into the facts please. I would ask members not to reply to any of DebDynamites comments as I think this person is trolling this thread.

You obviously know more then, so please enlighten me. I’ll ask my original question: so undocumented workers who did not have PPS numbers and paying no tax aren’t now being given them in confidence to allow them to claim the COVID payment?

25-05-2020 6:12pm

DebDynamite wrote: »

You obviously know more then, so please enlighten me. I’ll ask my original question: so undocumented workers who did not have PPS numbers and paying no tax aren’t now being given them in confidence to allow them to claim the COVID payment?

Your original (edited) question was “Of course it was open to abuse when you don’t even need a PPS number to claim it, i.e. illegal immigrants are entitled to it”

YFlyer · 25-05-2020 6:15pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Are you not employed as an asstiant by whatever uni your attending

Unfortunately not.

DebDynamite · 25-05-2020 6:36pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Your original (edited) question was “Of course it was open to abuse when you don’t even need a PPS number to claim it, i.e. illegal immigrants are entitled to it”

You are completely correct - mea culpa. The PPS number derailed the thread somewhat. The point still stands though, that undocumented workers are now entitled to the COVID payment when undocumented workers are not normally entitled to social welfare payments. Many of these applicants will not have paid any tax, and PPS numbers are now being given “free from fear” to those who have chosen to live under the radar with the assurance that their details will not be passed to the GNIB or the Department of Justice and Equality. So yes, I still think the system could be open to abuse.

The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

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