Irish language revival

astrofool · 02-06-2019 6:18pm

Reati wrote: »

You didn't try very hard then did you. Attached the figures for you direct from the government website.

Anyway, given your unable or unwilling to work out numbers for education (more proof if you ask me maths is clearly thought badly in schools).

Let me help you out.

3.69 billion is the cost of teachers wages (excluding any extras they might get for subbing etc) in both primary and secondary. I'm been nice including secondary as most secondary teachers don't teach Irish.

Let's divide that by 1/8 as that's around the time spent teaching Irish and we get 461 million in wages if all teachers in primary and secondary were to teach Irish.

As we know, that's not true in secondary so let's do the numbers for just primary which is 303 million.

So we're up to 351 million. Still well short of a billion. Even if we include the secondary figures, still well short.

So let's get to the next part of the debate (God its almost like I've heard every argument here a BILLION times before). We should remove Irish from schools and spend the money else where. It's a waste.

Cool, Should we make the school day shorter by 3.5hrs a week, pay the teachers less or fork out to have all the teachers upskilled in another subject? Let's not forget the Irish teachers in secondary, do we fire them? We'd only have to replace them with teachers of the other subject. Those wages arent some magic pot of gold that can be rerouted somewhere else.

Hence why I use the 48 million figure as it's direct government spend on the Irish langauge.

I'd imagine the argument is that if we were teaching another subject during that time, science/computers/other used language, that the money being spent anyway, would be getting used far more effectively, than teaching people who already speak to each other fine in English, another way to speak to each other (remembering that the gaeilgeoir is a subset of people who can speak English already).

El Tarangu · 02-06-2019 6:21pm

Thanks for including the screenshot; those figures appear to be from the Dept of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. So, like I said, the real cost is in fact more than €48m.

Reati wrote: »

Anyway, given your unable or unwilling to work out numbers for education (more proof if you ask me maths is clearly thought badly in schools).

English, too

Reati wrote: »

3.69 billion is the cost of teachers wages ... Let's divide that by 1/8 as that's around the time spent teaching Irish and we get 461 million in wages if all teachers in primary and secondary were to teach Irish.

i) it's true that not all secondary teachers teach Irish; however, at second level there are some teachers that spend between 50% up to 100% of their time teaching Irish; I think that one-eighth is still a good guesstimate. So, I'm glad you have revised your position re: €48m, anyway.

ii) why are you only including teachers' wages, and not any of the other costs? For example, every primary teacher in St Pat's spends x% of their time learning Irish; this also has a cost. And indeed, the opportunity cost of the fact that pupils could be studying other subjects in this time.

Reati wrote: »

So let's get to the next part of the debate (God its almost like I've heard every argument here a BILLION times before). We should remove Irish from schools and spend the money else where. It's a waste.

Cool, Should we make the school day shorter by 3.5hrs a week, pay the teachers less or fork out to have all the teachers upskilled in another subject? Let's not forget the Irish teachers in secondary, do we fire them? We'd only have to replace them with teachers of the other subject. Those wages arent some magic pot of gold that can be rerouted somewhere else.

Actually, I didn't propose removing Irish from schools altogether (though I think that there is a strong case to be made to make it optional after Junior Cert). I think that the primary factor in considering a change to the curriculum should be whether it will benefit the pupils in their later lives - I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand because "oh, it won't suit teachers - it's a no-go".

Reati · 02-06-2019 6:37pm

astrofool wrote: »

I'd imagine the argument is that if we were teaching another subject during that time, science/computers/other used language, that the money being spent anyway, would be getting used far more effectively, than teaching people who already speak to each other fine in English, another way to speak to each other (remembering that the gaeilgeoir is a subset of people who can speak English already).

But the leaving cert results don't back this. I've quoted the results 3 times now. French and German combined have less students getting a score between A1 and A3 than those taking Irish Higher level irish. Even though more take French and German exams at higher level. So the let's teach a different "more valuable" langauge arguement simply doesn't add up when facts are on the table.

We would simply replace one subject with another and likely see the same results.

steddyeddy · 02-06-2019 6:52pm

Reati wrote: »

I know your making a joke but I've a Scots Gaelige kids book that was delivered by mistake. It's incredible how different it is to Irish Gaeilge. I'd not understand a word they say though the accent doesn't help!

I'm talking about Ulster Scots which is a dialect in Northern Ireland.

Reati · 02-06-2019 6:55pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

Thanks for including the screenshot; those figures appear to be from the Dept of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. So, like I said, the real cost is in fact more than €48m.

So quote the actual figure. You keep saying it's more yet you don't seem to be able to quote an actual figure? I gave you the figure from the primary dept charged with the language (a number you were happy with when it was claimed to be 68 million) and went to the effort to figure out your claims with the education budget out for you.

Edit: Hell I'll take an estimate if you show your workings.

El Tarangu wrote: »

English, too

It's almost like I'm writing these on a phone. Imagine typos! I wasn't great at English in school to be fair. Guess we should get rid of that too so

El Tarangu wrote: »

i) it's true that not all secondary teachers teach Irish; however, at second level there are some teachers that spend between 50% up to 100% of their time teaching Irish; I think that one-eighth is still a good guesstimate. So, I'm glad you have revised your position re: €48m, anyway.

ii) why are you only including teachers' wages, and not any of the other costs?
For example, every primary teacher in St Pat's spends x% of their time learning Irish; this also has a cost. And indeed, the opportunity cost of the fact that pupils could be studying other subjects in this time.

Because the discussion in thr last few pages has been about wasting money. I explained why I'm using the 48 million as it's a direct cost that could be redistributed if we decided it was being wasted.

Teachers wages can't be. So claiming we waste x billions as others having in this thread on teaching Irish is nonsense. If you want to change the playing field to be about time and opportunity cost fine. I studied history, biology, physics, geography and the 3 "core" subjects for 6 years in secondary. That's 6 years of lost "opportunity" for me. Now let's times that for all the students who do the leaving with subjects they never use after and we've pissed an entire generation away! Seriously what a waste of time given I don't need any of that stuff in my day to day job now. I should have only learned the subjects that relates to the job I didn't know I was going to have when I was 12.

El Tarangu wrote: »

And indeed, the opportunity cost of the fact that pupils could be studying other subjects in this time.

OK cool, which subjects? To what level?

Noveight · 02-06-2019 7:04pm

Irish is being left as compulsory in our schools because whatever government makes it optional will be signing the languages death warrant. They just don’t want blood on their hands.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 02-06-2019 7:11pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Is there an Irish language section on boards, or better still an Irish language version of boards.ie? Why not get 100% grant and set one up?

A tiny search would reveal there is. .

astrofool · 02-06-2019 7:25pm

Reati wrote: »

But the leaving cert results don't back this. I've quoted the results 3 times now. French and German combined have less students getting a score between A1 and A3 than those taking Irish. Even though more take French and German exams higher level. So the let's teach a different "more valuable" langauge simply doesn't add us when facts are on the table.

We would simply replace one subject with another and likely see the same results.

The results in exams is independent of the utility of the subject. I mean, really, each exam should end up with a similar bell curve of results, and if one subject is seeing an average higher mark than another, than it is getting marked too easily (almost as if they were trying to bias the results in favour of that subject…)

Effectively, the only exams which needs to set a bar to the results are Maths and the sciences, where entry to a course is limited to those scoring above a C1 (for example).

But, if this is the track you want to go on, then I propose replacing Irish with "name writing". A1 at higher level is given to those who write their name correctly, and marks are deducted if you have a double barrel name. My subject will likely have the highest marks of all the exams, and thus be the most suitable subject to replace Irish with.

Reati · 02-06-2019 7:45pm

astrofool wrote: »

The results in exams is independent of the utility of the subject. I mean, really, each exam should end up with a similar bell curve of results, and if one subject is seeing an average higher mark than another, than it is getting marked too easily (almost as if they were trying to bias the results in favour of that subject…)

Effectively, the only exams which needs to set a bar to the results are Maths and the sciences, where entry to a course is limited to those scoring above a C1 (for example).

Hang on.

astrofool wrote: »

I'd imagine the argument is that if we were teaching another subject during that time , science/computers/other used language , that the money being spent anyway, would be getting used far more effectively

I love how when facts show Irish is performing better than two other widely used langauges in exams, the results don't matter. Especially given languages have a set standard that grades level of fluency I'd argue the results do matter. How else do you benchmark how well a subject is performing and how well the skill has been transfered to the student?

Are you genuinely saying that it's not interesting that Irish outperforms those langauges given one main argument made is to replace it with another important langauge would be better money spent yet those given the choice don't seem to be making most of it? Maybe it's just thought badly... Or that 3.5hrs a week isn't enough to learn any language properly to a B2 or C1 language level. (FYI C2 is native, A1 is basic hello phrases)

astrofool wrote: »

But, if this is the track you want to go on, then I propose replacing Irish with "name writing". A1 at higher level is given to those who write their name correctly, and marks are deducted if you have a double barrel name. My subject will likely have the highest marks of all the exams, and thus be the most suitable subject to replace Irish with.

Stunning example of a strawman. Boards should really have an award for the best one of these a week! You have my vote.

astrofool · 02-06-2019 8:35pm

Reati wrote: »

Hang on.

I love how when facts show Irish is performing better than two other widely used langauges in exams, the results don't matter. Especially given languages have a set standard that grades level of fluency I'd argue the results do matter. How else do you benchmark how well a subject is performing and how well the skill has been transfered to the student?

Are you genuinely saying that it's not interesting that Irish outperforms those langauges given one main argument made is to replace it with another important langauge would be better money spent yet those given the choice don't seem to be making most of it? Maybe it's just thought badly... Or that 3.5hrs a week isn't enough to learn any language properly to a B2 or C1 language level. (FYI C2 is native, A1 is basic hello phrases)

Stunning example of a strawman. Boards should really have an award for the best one of these a week! You have my vote.

So, your main point is that the teaching of Irish is better than all the other languages we teach, and that, due to the high marks achieved in exams, other languages should then (in theory) start trying to replicate how Irish is taught.

Rather than look at the outcomes from Irish after completing said exams with regard to future use of the language by the person, and utility of the language in their life afterwards, which, for most people, is zero vs. any other language (or even any other subject) that they are taught.

But I get it, people getting higher marks in Irish despite most people coming away from school with barely a few sentences, is at least one statistic that can be clung onto, despite all other evidence pointing the other way, which is why me making up an exam with easily achievable high marks breaks that contention, and leaves the argument as basically 2 things: People who learn Irish are bilingual, thus can pick up other languages more easily, and because we're Irish, and we might as well keep trying to revive a language that all but died off, but has been turned into a symbol of our independence.

Reati · 02-06-2019 9:22pm

astrofool wrote: »

So, your main point is that the teaching of Irish is better than all the other languages we teach, and that, due to the high marks achieved in exams, other languages should then (in theory) start trying to replicate how Irish is taught

The main point for the umpteenth time is replacing Irish with another "more useful langauge" is a nonsense arguement given students select to do "useful languages" in secondary and yet still they under perform compared to Irish. Replacing it or hawk****eing on about how it's taught badly always comes out as the argument to replace it in schools.

Yet when I compare apples to apples here which you disingenuously tried to strawman with your example. Irish vs German vs French, learned in secondary in the same manner and examined in the Leaving. We see Irish does better. So either other languages are taught worst (which I doubt) or students really love cramming for the Irish exam (which I doubt) or Irish isn't actually taught too badly for the few hours a week it gets.

astrofool wrote: »

Rather than look at the outcomes from Irish after completing said exams with regard to future use of the language by the person, and utility of the language in their life afterwards, which, for most people, is zero vs. any other language (or even any other subject) that they are taught.

What are you basing this on? Let's see the figures for this. I'd hazard a guess 95% of my French and German classmates haven't found the magic utility to use it you keep going on about.

What subjects did you study? How many do you use daily? I called out mine a few posts ago. Certainly can't say I've used them in the last 12 months bar basics of maths. I can't remember needing to speak about otto von bismarck, Emily Dickinson or u-shaped valleys or having to use it in daily life.

astrofool wrote: »

But I get it, people getting higher marks in Irish despite most people coming away from school with barely a few sentences, is at least one statistic that can be clung onto,despite all other evidence pointing the other way,

I've not colored the statistic with opinion. I've merely stated cold facts to refute the arguement that replacing Irish with another language is BS.

Be great to hear about the evidence pointing the other way?

"astrofool wrote: »

which is why me making up an exam with easily achievable high marks breaks that contention

You mean the non comparison exam to one's that are all in the same category? Unless you're simply saying the Irish higher level is really easy compared to the other two exams?

"astrofool wrote: »

and leaves the argument as basically 2 things: People who learn Irish are bilingual, thus can pick up other languages more easily, and because we're Irish, and we might as well keep trying to revive a language that all but died off, but has been turned into a symbol of our independence.

People who speak two languages are bilingual. That's the definition of it? In practice yes most bilingual people can pick up other languages easily.

The rest is not related to anything I've posted so I'm ignoring it.

astrofool · 02-06-2019 10:27pm

I'm flat out saying that the marks achieved in Irish are due to a desire to inflate the grades and keep it attractive as a subject for students, who would drop it in a second were it not for it's compulsory nature.

As you asked, not that it's relevant, I studied 8 subjects at hons level, used 4 of them directly during uni and then work, and use three more indirectly through daily life, take a wild guess which the odd one out is.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-06-2019 10:28pm

Reati wrote: »

The main point for the umpteenth time is replacing Irish with another "more useful langauge" is a nonsense arguement given students select to do "useful languages" in secondary and yet still they under perform compared to Irish.

Hang on a second - you said to me that "the point of removing poor performing subjects is one in jest". If so, then underperforming shouldn't be an issue.

It's up for the student to decide what they want to study. There are only three core subjects - the rest they choose. And not on the basis of how well they perform or how much the subject needs or doesn't need them.

No revival is ever going to come about by forcing people to learnt it, and that seems to be the premise upon which compulsory Irish is based.

byhookorbycrook · 02-06-2019 10:35pm

For those who think Irish is dead, have a look at Comórtas Peile tomorrow on Tg4- all of the teams are Irish speaking. Our school has nearly 500 students, drawn from a wide variety of background, socially,economically and nationalities and all the better for all of that.

janfebmar · 02-06-2019 10:59pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

For those who think Irish is dead,...

For those who think Irish is not dead, try to find an Irish language section on boards.ie, or better still an Irish language version of boards.ie.

I eventually found an Irish language section, it gets a few post a month.

03-06-2019 1:33am

janfebmar wrote: »

For those who think Irish is not dead, try to find an Irish language section on boards.ie, or better still an Irish language version of boards.ie.

I eventually found an Irish language section, it gets a few post a month.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaeilge/

janfebmar · 03-06-2019 1:44am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaeilge/

It is not a very popular version of boards.ie. Many of the posts of that reddit site are in English, and even then it gets pathetic little traffic in Ireland..

03-06-2019 1:49am

janfebmar wrote: »

It is not a very popular version of boards.ie. Many of the posts of that reddit site are in English, and even then it gets pathetic little traffic in Ireland..

You said you wanted an Irish language version, and another part of this website where Irish is spoken. You've now been given examples of both.

Nobody is suggesting that Irish is spoken as commonly as English, nor anything near that, so put down those goalposts you're about to drag away.

janfebmar · 03-06-2019 1:53am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

You said you wanted an Irish language version, and another part of this website where Irish is spoken. You've now been given examples of both.

.

I also said " I eventually found an Irish language section, it gets a few post a month.". It proves my point. People now are on their phones / the interweb a lot. It just goes to prove my point, the Irish language is dead.

03-06-2019 2:12am

janfebmar wrote: »

I also said " I eventually found an Irish language section, it gets a few post a month.". It proves my point. People now are on their phones / the interweb a lot. It just goes to prove my point, the Irish language is dead.

The language is only dead when there are no active speakers left alive, Manx for example was dead about 30 years ago, has since been revived and has a couple of hundred speakers.

Reati · 03-06-2019 9:00am

astrofool wrote: »

I'm flat out saying that the marks achieved in Irish are due to a desire to inflate the grades and keep it attractive as a subject for students, who would drop it in a second were it not for it's compulsory nature.

Nice to see your true colours starting to show. Irish marks are not inflated or graded easier. Your I simply insulting every student who worked hard to get the high grades they have. Unless you have some hard proof?

astrofool wrote: »

As you asked, not that it's relevant, I studied 8 subjects at hons level, used 4 of them directly during uni and then work, and use three more indirectly through daily life, take a wild guess which the odd one out is.

Its absolutely relevant. You are the one who keeps talking about the importance of utility of subjects learned in school.

So again, what subjects? What skills? To what level?

You missed a question btw, Where is your stats that show how students are utilising languages post secondary?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2019 10:50am

And THIS is why you're never going to see a rival for the Irish language through education: people are obsessed with finding and creating statistics to display uses or lack thereof.

For some bizarre reason, it doesn't seem to matter to the posters above (and on this thread generally speaking) whether or not people might actually ENJOY learning it after the junior cert. "We should scrap it - it's dead!" and "We should force people to learn it - they'll need it!" are opposite sides of the exact same selfish coin.

Two things:
1 - You will NEVER (not should you have the power to) create a revival by making people's dreams and holding them to ransom by making realisation of said dreams depend on an aptitude THEY don't need and YOU want.
2 - You will NEVER (nor should you have the power to) kill off something, or the outlets to learn it, that numerous people enjoy doing and find self-meaning in, as education has a responsibility to promote creativity and self-expression as much as intellectualism.

Solution (re education specifically) - make it law that Irish will go optional in three wears for the leaving cert from today. The people setting the syllabus then have three years to come up with a syllabus that people will find interesting. Otherwise they will just sit around on their arrogant lazy arses - as they have done for decades - trying to force an issue and wondering why their same actions are failing over and over and over again.
And, in three years, you have an Irish course students WANT to learn and in a generation (or even less that) you will have a far more enthusiastic and knowledgeable Irish language speaker-base passing on their enjoyment and their skills to their own children.

If you build it, as the movie-line once said, they will come.

Del.Monte · 03-06-2019 11:00am

Deleted User wrote: »

The language is only dead when there are no active speakers left alive, Manx for example was dead about 30 years ago, has since been revived and has a couple of hundred speakers.

Lived on the Isle of Man for some years and despite it being a tiny place never heard a word spoken - even in Peel - a reservation for the natives.

ILoveYourVibes · 03-06-2019 11:00am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Solution (re education specifically) - make it law that Irish will go optional in three wears for the leaving cert from today. The people setting the syallabus then have three years to come up with a syllabus that people will find interesting. Otherwise they will just sit around on their arrogant lazy arses - as they have done for decades - trying to force an issue and wondering why their same actions are failing over and over and over again.

If you build it, as the movie-line once said, they will come.

Please do not do this. I appreciate the sentiment.

But think about it....if you give someone an opportunity to drop something JUST after the first state exam they ever have they WILL drop it.

Its a stressful experience. You would drop most things even things you once enjoyed after that. Exams make things unpleasant.

Solution Irish revolution ..get rid of exams in Irish.

They HAVE to learn it ..but there are NO exams. You are NEVER tested not even in primary school in Irish.

Think about it.

It sets in the right value space. Its about community and culture. You are not judged on what you get.

So as a subject its compulsory ..but you take no exams ...and no homework.
Here is your slogan.
'Irish ...IS A JOURNEY. Not a destination'

Alun · 03-06-2019 11:07am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Lived on the Isle of Man for some years and despite it being a tiny place never heard a word spoken - even in Peel - a reservation for the natives.

I was in Peel a couple of years ago, and in the House of Manannan museum we came across a group of small children gathered round sitting on the floor listening to stories being told in Manx. It's a regular thing apparently. Lot's of kids books around in Manx too, and for sale in the shop there.

ILoveYourVibes · 03-06-2019 11:08am

Also be honest with kids.

They don't need to learn Irish for any reason practical or spiritual.and they don't want to on the whole.........however the language and it's community in this country NEED THEM to learn it. Tell them that its reason enough.

Its ok to need people. Gaelgoirs NEED people to learn and be interested in Irish. They do whatever they say ..THEY DO.

Maybe kids might find that alone compelling.

Its nice to be needed.

03-06-2019 11:35am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And THIS is why you're never going to see a rival for the Irish language through education: people are obsessed with finding and creating statistics to display uses or lack thereof.

a small minority are obsessed. As an Irish speaker who switches between Irish and English with my child, I don't care about obligatory Irish or how many speakers there are, so long as there remains a sufficient number of speakers allowing for an option to use Irish when engaging within the state (especially education).

I think threads like this bring our minorities on both extremes, where people are unreasonably dogmatic about Irish as an obligation or who demand, without evidence, that the language is dead.

Most of us are probably fairly ambivalent about Irish as a compulsory subject, and couldn't give a hoot whether 25% or 5% say they use it in everyday life.

I don't use Irish when speaking to 95% of people, and that 95% would correctly regard me as unreasonable by forcing it in them. I have honestly never met more than a handful of (five or fewer) Gaeilgeoirí who I'd say 'force' Irish on others. Most people just get on with their lives whether they speak it or not, I daresay most of us rarely even think about language oppression.

ILoveYourVibes · 03-06-2019 11:39am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't care about obligatory Irish or how many speakers there are, so long as there remains a sufficient number of speakers allowing for an option to use Irish when engaging within the state (especially education).

That is why you will lose your rights. You don't think that people matter to a language. They do.

ILoveYourVibes · 03-06-2019 11:45am

TBH it doesn't matter how many people speak it ...but lets be honest there would be people who would enjoy seeing it die ...

Its THAT you have to change. You have to change people's feeling about it.

Get rid of exams ...but make classes compulsory ..make it less academic ...less text books ..more of a doss class

They won't come out speaking a word but they will come out loving it!

They can opt in for exams if they want to.

03-06-2019 11:49am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

That is why you will lose your rights. You don't think that people matter to a language. They do.

If course a language is a living organism. It's alive not where two or more people congregate to speak it, and long may that continue. I'm all for policies that promote its use, because it is a language that is phonetically beautiful with a rich linguistic and literary identity. But I don't think it should be compulsory throughout the educational system.

But I care as much about forcing people to use it as I care about forcing people to engage with the works of Joyce or Rimbaud or Geri Haliwell, or any of the other greats. I don't get off on whether most of the Public engages with it or not, although I think it would we be well worth their time. That's all.

Irish language revival

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