Irish language revival

whatdoicare

ted1 wrote: »

I question your logic. what other subjects are they learning when not in Irish class ?

My kids go to a GaelScoil, so they learn all subjects through Irish and nothing suffers. In fact they actually benefit as reflected by leaving cert results.

We’re in Spain for a month and they have gone to a few classes and picked up Spainish pretty good as a third language as languages are easy for them.


I hope your kids never want to be a primary school teacher.

My young one also goes to a Gaelscoil - she's just finished juniors and she has far more Irish than I ever had at leaving cert level. I really like the way it's taught, like a language should be. Its just more natural.

They'll be doing Spanish or French next year too and it'll be approached the same way, which is fantastic! I can speak Spanish and she's picked up bits from just listening to me and youtube videos. She's very open to languages I'm noticing, much more than her cousins and friends who haven't been to a Gaelscoil. I've noticed if I speak a few words of Spanish to my nieces and nephews they just look at me funny and pretend like I've said nothing, whereas my small one heard someone speaking French on the bus the other day and was straight away mimicing words and trying to make sense of it.

Language should be taught through speaking it not by rote learning from a book and of course being fluent in more than one language makes it easier to learn more languages.

Reati

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Is aobhionn liom an rinn! Daoine álainn síos ann.
According to Google translate ......
"I love the tip! Beautiful people down there"

Haha and that's why we don't use Google translate but it does produce some classics like that!

Reati

janfebmar wrote: »

Sad thing is the government and all their departments are still wasting billions on a language nobody speaks.

I call absolute bull**** on this stupid myth.

All government spending is available online. I want you to show us the exact figure and how you calculated it otherwise you're talking out your ass and presenting it as a fact.

First here's some spending stats for comparison.

Social protection 20.63 billion
Health 17.11 billion
Justice 2.7 billion
Agriculture 1.60
National debt repayment 9.56 billion (seriously wtf)

Irish language spending in 2018 (drum roll) 48 million. (and that include grants for the Gaeltacht areas) Thats a lot of zeros short of the billions and billions isn't it now?

For 2018- 2027 they have comitted 178 million extra (that's just 17.8 million extra a year to the current figure) 105 million of which is for developing businesses and delivering 1000 jobs in the gaeltacht areas.

Oh, let's not forget that the government spent over 200 million on stationary.

Billions and billions... :rolleyes:

Del.Monte

It's €48 million that could be better spent elsewhere and I bet it doesn't take into account the money spent on duplication of official documents in both languages - recent divorce referendum being a case in point. Lip service to 'Climate Emergency' while still producing more waste.

Reati

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's €48 million that could be better spent elsewhere and I bet it doesn't take into account the money spent on duplication of official documents in both languages - recent divorce referendum being a case in point. Lip service to 'Climate Emergency' while still producing more waste.

Translation costs are minimal actually. Given the entire corpus of EU agreements were translated to Irish for 10 million (don't worry the EU paid for it) and lucky us collecting the income tax from the translators. The few lines of the divorce referendum and collateral associated are hardly a drop in the ocean.

Anyway, Where would it be better spent? What projects exactly. What's the ROI?

Why is Irish seen as a waste yet the 200 million the government spent on stationary is grand?

Del.Monte

I wouldn't see €200 million spent on government stationery as grand - more squandering of the people's money by an out of control, answerable to nobody elite.

Reati

Del.Monte wrote: »

I wouldn't see €200 million spent on government stationery as grand - more squandering of the people's money by an out of control, answerable to nobody elite.

And which projects should we take the 48 million (a chunk of which support the people of the Gaeltachtaí) and what grants will we put into place to ensure they aren't negatively affected by your decision that the Irish langauge is worthless to you and therefore must be to them?

Del.Monte

Can't answer that and I have no difficulty in Gaeltacht areas receiving funding, but I see no reason to continue paying lip service to the language by printing all official material in both Irish and English.

I would also remove compulsory Irish from the school curriculum but in 21st century PC Ireland the mob want religion removed instead. When I was at school, back in the Stone Age, we had one harmless religion class a week as against five mind numbing Irish classes.

Reati

Del.Monte wrote: »

Can't answer that and I have no difficulty in Gaeltacht areas receiving funding, but I see no reason to continue paying lip service to the language by printing all official material in both Irish and English.

I would also remove compulsory Irish from the school curriculum but in 21st century PC Ireland the mob want religion removed instead. When I was at school, back in the Stone Age, we had one harmless religion class a week as against five mind numbing Irish classes.

Its hardly lip service if 1.7 million claim to be able to speak Irish (we can all agree the highly dubious nature of that claim) but there are circa 100k fluent speakers who use the langauge daily who you think should be forced to stop. Again, it's interesting that your world view is that if it's not valuable to me, it's not worth having.

Why would you remove compulsory Irish? As I posted the numbers already many pages ago, students perform better in Irish exams in the leaving than math or french and German combined (even though more take those exams by choice).

If anything the numbers say we should remove maths as it's one of the poorest performing subjects. I guess it must just be thought wrong... Those pesky teachers at it again.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

Why would you remove compulsory Irish? As I posted the numbers already many pages ago, students perform better in Irish exams in the leaving than math or french and German combined (even though more take those exams by choice).

If anything the numbers say we should remove maths as it's one of the poorest performing subjects. I guess it must just be thought wrong... Those pesky teachers at it again.

The answers to that are a seperate issue: because the student should be allowed to drop any non-essential subject they find uninspiring or lacking in benefit

If the argument is then 'what about English or Maths' then the response is that these are essential subjects, but also that, if the student has attained a certain level of said subject necessary to operate in society, then yes - so he it.

If the argument is that learning a second language is a proven facilitator in Education, then so be it - but why does this language have to be Irish? Why not French? Or German? I certainly don't see the logic in removing subjects due to poor results in exams!!

Reati

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The answers to that are a seperate issue: because the student should be allowed to drop any non-essential subject they find uninspiring or lacking in benefit

If the argument is then 'what about English or Maths' then the response is that these are essential subjects, but also that, if the student has attained a certain level of said subject necessary to operate in society, then yes - so he it.

If the argument is that learning a second language is a proven facilitator in Education, then so be it - but why does this language have to be Irish? Why not French? Or German? I certainly don't see the logic in removing subjects due to poor results in exams!!

So we need to have the entire spectrum of subjects available and students should be allowed pick and choose depending on what is inspiring them that day? Sounds fab. Can I get that in my day job too?

Who decides what is a essential subject? Some think religion in school is an essential subject. Some think music or arts is. Others think Chinese (aside: the sheer laughability that some people think replacing Irish with Chinese and we'll produce fluent speakers btw is amazing). Basic maths is enough to function in society. Add, subject, divide, multiple, average, square etc.We could cover all that in primary. So we should drop maths in Secondary unless an elective choice and drop it as a requirement to college courses that don't require maths.

What about English. Writing and reading is covered by 6th class. Why waste 6 years on poems and other such study?

The point of removing poor performing subjects is one in jest. The argument is constantly made that no one actual learns or gets good at Irish in the 3 hours a week they do it in school so it should be removed yet it constantly performs better than the other subjects in state exams. If the argument is that we waste time on Irish as no one actually learns it, then the absolute same arguement can be said for maths. Most people gasp of maths beyond the basics is poor. So it's hypocritical to claim there is value in forcing it for collage placements given you really don't need it for many courses.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Reati wrote: »

So we need to have the entire spectrum of subjects available and students should be allowed pick and choose depending on what is inspiring them that day? Sounds fab. Can I get that in my day job too?

Strawman argument. Did I say "entire spectrum"? Did I specifically use the phrase "that day"?

Furthermore, students are already allowed to choose optional students for the leaving cert (and, i some cases, junior cert - or at least I did).

Who decides what is a essential subject? Some think religion in school is an essential subject. Some think music or arts is. Others think Chinese (aside: the sheer laughability that some people think replacing Irish with Chinese and we'll produce fluent speakers btw is amazing). Basic maths is enough to function in society. Add, subject, divide, multiple, average, square etc.We could cover all that in primary. So we should drop maths in Secondary unless an elective choice and drop it as a requirement to college courses that don't require maths.

Answered in previous post: see part about lifeskills.

What about English. Writing and reading is covered by 6th class. Why waste 6 years on poems and other such study?

I'm talking more as an option for the leaving cert.

The point of removing poor performing subjects is one in jest. The argument is constantly made that no one actual learns or gets good at Irish in the 3 hours a week they do it in school so it should be removed yet it constantly performs better than the other subjects in state exams. If the argument is that we waste time on Irish as no one actually learns it, then the absolute same arguement can be said for maths. Most people gasp of maths beyond the basics is poor. So it's hypocritical to claim there is value in forcing it for collage placements given you really don't need it for many courses.

Fair enough, I'd agree with you here. It's like saying you need Irtish to study veterinary science - wtf?!

El Tarangu

Reati wrote: »

I call absolute bull**** on this stupid myth.

...
Irish language spending in 2018 (drum roll) 48 million. (and that include grants for the Gaeltacht areas)

I think you are being disingenuous; education spending will be €11bn this year. Irish is taught right the way through primary and secondary, and (in theory) every primary school teacher has to be proficient in Irish. So in addition to this €48m, a not-insignificant slice of this €11bn figure is also being spent on the Irish language.

The_Kew_Tour

The Welsh did a good job of it. Can't see why we can't do same.

The_Kew_Tour

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The Welsh did a good job of it. Can't see why we can't do same.

In the 1970s, the "Welsh language society" went as far as a bombing campaign which took out a number of TV transmitters. Hopefully Direct action isn't part of any strategy to Promote the Irish Language.

janfebmar

Del.Monte wrote: »

I see no reason to continue paying lip service to the language by printing all official material in both Irish and English.

Correct. As well as costing a fortune, it is bad for the environment.

Snow Garden

Nina Pitiful Shamrock wrote: »

Personally I'm not bothered about it and get niffed when people equate our Irishness with just a language,

If I am being honest, I think the whole Irish language obsession is coming from people who want to differentiate themselves from the influx of immigrants over the past 20 years. There is definitely a racist/xenophobic element to it - especially the Gaelscoils.

Snow Garden

Snow Garden wrote: »

If I am being honest, I think the whole Irish language obsession is coming from people who want to differentiate themselves from the influx of immigrants over the past 20 years. There is definitely a racist/xenophobic element to it - especially the Gaelscoils.

So Irish people want to retain their Irish identity, what's wrong with that!
Labelling it as racist/xenophobic is wrong, very wrong.

Hamsterchops

Speaking Irish is from our past, dare I say our distant past.

Irish was dying out for a couple of hundred years before it fell out of everyday use, and it was obviously superceded by English, the language or communication, commerce and the arts.

Let those who want to speak Irish speak it, but as regards the vast bulk of the Irish population, it's over, and it's in the past (apart from school) where the 'we all speak Irish myth' is perpetuated....at great expense.

Don't know what the Welsh did, but it works really well for them.

janfebmar

Snow Garden wrote: »

If I am being honest, I think the whole Irish language obsession is coming from people who want to differentiate themselves from the influx of immigrants over the past 20 years. There is definitely a racist/xenophobic element to it - especially the Gaelscoils.

Parents usually send theirs kids to Gaelscoil not for Irish, but so that their kids are not the ones to mix with immigrants and blacks.

HoteiMarkii

Snow Garden wrote: »

If I am being honest, I think the whole Irish language obsession is coming from people who want to differentiate themselves from the influx of immigrants over the past 20 years. There is definitely a racist/xenophobic element to it - especially the Gaelscoils.

A significant number of the children attending our local Gaelscoil are children of immigrants.

Reati

janfebmar wrote: »

Parents usually send theirs kids to Gaelscoil not for Irish, but so that their kids are not the ones to mix with immigrants and blacks.

You've clearly not set foot in a Gaelscoil in your life. They are far from thr pure breed Irish GAA white pasty you are imagining. At least a 1/4 if not more of my oldest class is non Irish.

janfebmar

HoteiMarkii wrote: »

A significant number of the children attending our local Gaelscoil are children of immigrants.

Higher % of immigrants in non - Gaelscoils.

Noveight

janfebmar wrote: »

Parents usually send theirs kids to Gaelscoil not for Irish, but so that their kids are not the ones to mix with immigrants and blacks.

Completely incorrect.

You’ve just fabricated that to suit whatever argument you’re pushing.

Reati

El Tarangu wrote: »

I think you are being disingenuous; education spending will be €11bn this year. Irish is taught right the way through primary and secondary, and (in theory) every primary school teacher has to be proficient in Irish. So in addition to this €48m, a not-insignificant slice of this €11bn figure is also being spent on the Irish language.

Show me the figures! You don't get to toss out 11billion and walk away. The breakdown is online and you're disingenuous to state a significant slice is on Irish only.

janfebmar

Noveight wrote: »

Completely incorrect.

It is well known. Just google Gaelscoil images and out of hundreds of faces, practically not a black face to be seen. It is like looking back at 1980's Ireland.

Reati

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Strawman argument. Did I say "entire spectrum"? Did I specifically use the phrase "that day"?

Furthermore, students are already allowed to choose optional students for the leaving cert (and, i some cases, junior cert - or at least I did).




Answered in previous post: see part about lifeskills.


I'm talking more as an option for the leaving cert.



Fair enough, I'd agree with you here. It's like saying you need Irtish to study veterinary science - wtf?!

I'm on the road and will get back to this when I'm home as I need a laptop for the many quotes

Reati

janfebmar wrote: »

It is well known. Just google Gaelscoil images and out of hundreds of faces, practically not a black face to be seen. It is like looking back at 1980's Ireland.

If I google my old secondary school there isn't anything but white faces. Seems strange as there was immigrants in my class.

Does this mean you can't trust everything you google?

Stop moaning ffs

janfebmar wrote: »

It is well known. Just google Gaelscoil images and out of hundreds of faces, practically not a black face to be seen. It is like looking back at 1980's Ireland.

This is beautiful. Syrian boy. 4 languages. Plays hurling. Wants to learn Irish next.
Go away tfuk with your nonsense

https://twitter.com/johnhyphen/status/1133732626316091393?s=21

janfebmar

Snow Garden wrote: »

If I am being honest, I think the whole Irish language obsession is coming from people who want to differentiate themselves from the influx of immigrants over the past 20 years. There is definitely a racist/xenophobic element to it - especially the Gaelscoils.

Its ok having the odd immigrant in a Gaelscoil as long as they integrate to the Gaelscoil way of life.